Yail, I have found some articles that suggest the opposite and it seems to fit my sitch. You are bang on the money about the learned gendered behavior but these articles talk about it in a different light. The articles suggested that a lot of women sought out partners that would allow them to live outside of those gendered behaviors, partners that would take on more of the formerly feminine roles of family life. The unintended result however was that they found themselves less and less attracted to these partners because of the blurred lines between masculine and feminine.
Not sure how much truth there is behind this and it likely depends on age but it certainly seems to fit my sitch more accurately.
I think each sitch has there own unique quirks, but the WAS script and LBS script all seems similar to a point. I think Steve's point seems to be a strong truth that pervades all sitchs. Just let go.
Yail I think some of what you are hitting on about the H vs W holds some truth for my W. I think she had believed in the W & Mother gender roles fully. Over time I think she starting have some degree of resentment towards those roles or those values started eroding, that and the many other issues she is dealing with. Hard to say, we are all speculating without being able to really get the truth from the source.
Last edited by Twofeet; 11/28/1812:05 AM.
H(37) W(35) D8, D5, S3 T20, M13 BD 8/31/18 EA Discovered 9/13/18 Mediation 10/3/18 W files for D 10/12/18 W moves out 11/10/18 EA confirmed 12/25/18 D Final 1/10/19
Yail, I have found some articles that suggest the opposite and it seems to fit my sitch. You are bang on the money about the learned gendered behavior but these articles talk about it in a different light. The articles suggested that a lot of women sought out partners that would allow them to live outside of those gendered behaviors, partners that would take on more of the formerly feminine roles of family life. The unintended result however was that they found themselves less and less attracted to these partners because of the blurred lines between masculine and feminine.
Not sure how much truth there is behind this and it likely depends on age but it certainly seems to fit my sitch more accurately.
Are you referring specifically to NGS? I'm sure that's very true I could see that. I think the issue is that both H and W want true partners who will carry their weight - however that is determined between the couple. But it must feel balanced.
I guess what I mean when I say women and the gendered behaviors is less about what tasks each person does (cooking/cleaning vs money making etc.) and more about the weight of the relationship that the W often carries. It is still down to her to "make it work". It's still seen as her responsibility. Again, I am really not trying to use blanket statements or imply that men don't have this pressure.
I'm imagining a scenario where there is a W who loves her work outside the home, and a H who is a fantastic homemaker. And W is frustrated and becomes WAS. I'm not sure it's because H isn't "masculine" enough, but maybe because she has to decide everything. He's a laid back guy. And while the tasks are divided equally, perhaps the power isn't.
At its core, I think this is what people misunderstand about feminism. This is not women wanting all the power. It's women wanting our share, and for men to share that other half with us.
I think each sitch has there own unique quirks, but the WAS script and LBS script all seems similar to a point. I think Steve's point seems to be a strong truth that pervades all sitchs. Just let go.
Yail I think some of what you are hitting on about the H vs W holds some truth for my W. I think she had believed in the W & Mother gender roles fully. Over time I think she starting have some degree of resentment towards those roles or those values started eroding, that and the many other issues she is dealing with. Hard to say, we are all speculating without being able to really get the truth from the source.
TF, exactly. Whether you are a LBH or LBW dealing wtih a LBH or LBW, the fastest way to D is to hold on too tightly. Almost every newbie comes to this forum with a death-grip on their WAS.
It reminds me of our cat. If the cat jumps up to lay with me and I put my arm around her, she immediately struggles and wants down. But If she come up and nuzzles her way under my arm she'll lay there for literally hours. WAS are exactly like that. It has to be THEIR idea or they buck it.
Good exchanges on the differences in dealing with WAWs and WAHs. Some good insight. As stated there are a lot of differences, many societal. A WAH has had to deal with, in most sitches, the thought of paying support post D, etc. A WAW often times has to deal with the idea of becoming financially self-sufficient. So yes there are lots of considerations and some are specific to gender.
But WASs are also very similar no matter gender or situation. Most have already worked through obstacles and logistics. Which is why trying to guilt, or reason them into staying doesn't work. In my own sitch, as relayed in my OP above, I initially used D14, family, friends, church etc, even the dogs!. But she'd already worked through most of that in her head. This is important to newbies, rarely will you think of an angle, shortly post-BD, that the WAS hasn't already considered leading up to BD.
The point is that letting go and NOT trying to save the marriage is still your best approach. Not a guarantee, as there are no guarantees, but it gives you the best chance. That is why DBing is so important. GAL, 180s, and detachment all work TOWARDS not saving the marriage. They work on saving YOU. Save yourself, and sometimes the MR comes along for the ride.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
One other issue I see coming up a lot, that I want to address in this thread, is this idea that the WAS is so egotistical and stubborn that they will never go back on their declaration of wanting a D. I see a lot of newbies struggling with this. A common statement is "He or she rarely goes back on a decision once they've made up their mind."
First, I always like to point out that the decision to D was a change of mind! Most of us stood before a preacher and a church, in front of friends and family, and declared undying love and commitment to our spouses. And our spouses reciprocated. Wouldn't the same "they are too stubborn to go back on their decision" also apply to the marital vows? So if they changed their mind once then logically they could change their mind again.
No one is more stubborn than my W. I can tell you stories about her stubbornness. Yet as sure as she was on BD and the days following that she wanted a D she eventually relented. I could share (for privacy I won't) a dating site profile she put up a few weeks into our sitch where she stated that while she was married and couldn't date now, she was uncategorically going to D her husband, and so would be able to date at a later time. (Her logic was to "test" the waters.)
Yet just a couple of months later she was fully committed to Ring and we were in MC working on MR 2.0.
Second, that same stubbornness can work positively in your sitch. Most WASs expect their spouses to be sad, unhappy, mopey, clingy, angry, upset, disappointed, devastated, unable to go on post BD. When you flip that script it can have a profound effect on the WAS. This is why detachment as soon as possible is so important. Being present, pleased, content, happy, upbeat, easy-going, and having an attitude of "I am going to be just fine no matter what" will often make the LBS' scratch their heads and wonder, "why are they so okay with this?" They then start to question their decision to D. And this is where their stubbornness comes in. They often will have an attitude of "oh no, you ain't getting rid of me that easily!". This is why the distance-pursuit dynamic, and understanding it, is so important (see my analogy of my cat in my previous post).
Lastly, people are stubborn but even the most stubborn will give up their "endeavor" if they deem it not beneficial or even detrimental. For instance, I may be stubborn as a mule. And feel I must walk south in Arizona to get to a desired destination as quickly as I can. But if I come to the edge of the northern rim of the Grand Canyon I am going to give up my stubbornness at continuing to walk south in order to not fall thousands of feet to my death! WAS see their decision to D as beneficial....but if they come to the realization that that is not the case anymore they will be willing to give up their quest no matter how stubborn they may be.
Almost all WASs are stubborn. None of them like to go back on their "I want a D" decree. But that doesn't mean that it is impossible for them to change their mind eventually.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
A common statement is "He or she rarely goes back on a decision once they've made up their mind."
First, I always like to point out that the decision to D was a change of mind! Most of us stood before a preacher and a church, in front of friends and family, and declared undying love and commitment to our spouses. And our spouses reciprocated. Wouldn't the same "they are too stubborn to go back on their decision" also apply to the marital vows? So if they changed their mind once then logically they could change their mind again.
I think the part I struggle with in this example is that a marriage is an action that society wholeheartedly approves of. But reconciliation after S or D, especially when there is an A involved - that's not as universally accepted. So the WAS will be dealing with potentially a whole lot of people saying to the LBS "WHY would you do that!? Don't take them back!" so the WAS has not only their own mind to change, but they also know they'll have to fight the more public shame. And I wonder how many have the fortitude to do that.
A common statement is "He or she rarely goes back on a decision once they've made up their mind."
First, I always like to point out that the decision to D was a change of mind! Most of us stood before a preacher and a church, in front of friends and family, and declared undying love and commitment to our spouses. And our spouses reciprocated. Wouldn't the same "they are too stubborn to go back on their decision" also apply to the marital vows? So if they changed their mind once then logically they could change their mind again.
I think the part I struggle with in this example is that a marriage is an action that society wholeheartedly approves of. But reconciliation after S or D, especially when there is an A involved - that's not as universally accepted. So the WAS will be dealing with potentially a whole lot of people saying to the LBS "WHY would you do that!? Don't take them back!" so the WAS has not only their own mind to change, but they also know they'll have to fight the more public shame. And I wonder how many have the fortitude to do that.
Yail, this is an excellent point. This is why I advise LBSs to not tell others (friends, family, church members, etc) about their sitch. It is tough because when we go through things like this we tend to want to lean on the support of others. But for the very reason you just mentioned it is a bad idea. The less obstacles you put in front of your WAS to coming back for R the better.
Many have already squeezed that toothpaste out of the tube by time they com here. To that I say, if R is going to occur i will occur no matter who knows or doesn't know and what they have to say. Not everyone thinks a couple should marry. Not everyone thinks they should D. Not everyone thinks they should stay together. Leaving their spouse is a huge step by the WAS. If they took that huge step they can certainly face the obstacles to decide to R as well.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Truth truth and more truth Steve. I didn't come here until 3 months in and that slowed my progress but once I DB'ed FT, and reading up just like you, I saw things change drastically. Not just my WW starting to pull back but me pulling away and comfortably. I am at a bit over 6 months since BD and WW does not seem so wayward anymore, unless she still contacts OM but I could care less. More and more expressions from her about not wanting to lose me and she is working on her issues that led to this and I honestly spend time thinking about how far I have come and whether I want her back.
I did contact family members and friends in the beginning and it definitely hampered the sitch but I had no clue how to handle it at the time. My first go round with this 10 years ago was just like yours...quick pull back from A, swept under the rug and moved on. Not this time though, thanks to the advice here....I need to know if this is right for me depending on how things will move forward.
Stick to the rules/advice, educate yourself, get legal advice if needed and take care of your kids if you have them. This stuff does work a lot better than you would think.
Last edited by lost8; 11/28/1803:34 PM.
H-50 W-48 T-19 M -18 S23, S14 BD - 5/9/2018 OM discovered 5/10/2018
In house sep - 8/18/2018 Rope drop 2/15/2019 R'ing since 3/15/2019
Great posts Steve! Your first post reminded me so much of my early days after DB. Desperately searching the internet for the "magic pill" to fix everything. Frantically calling every marriage counselor in the phone book because I thought it was an emergency that needed defibrillator action. I remember buying one of those "here's the thing you need to do to save your M right now" programs and got some ridiculous PDF full of typos and grammatical errors that looked like it had been written in 5 minutes by someone in a drunken stupor (I don't hold those who prey on the desperate to make a buck in very high regard). But it took most of our spouses months or (more likely) years to get to the point they are, and there is no quick fix for that. It takes a lot of hard work and time, and even then the outcome of the M is uncertain. But the beauty of DB'ing is that even if it doesn't save the M, it saves us!
