Introduction

[Yail]

What if I told you that in 95.75% of the cases, talking about filing for D is actually an indicator that HE IS RETHINKING THINGS. The WAS is often confused. Especially if the LBS starts to move on. The WAS starts to be eaten up with thoughts of "am I doing the right thing here?" And with most humans, when they start having doubts on something they've convinced themselves they want, they take action.....or the illusion of action. Thus "Hey, I am going to file for D but need your help."

Steve, I appreciate your intent with this post. But please, you know most of us LBS are a wreck. Please don't post statistics unless they are actual statistics. We all want to do the work while simultaneously having hope to stand strong, but pretty soon we'll start quoting that number as gospel.

I do, however, see your point and agree that the move towards filing is often an attempt by the WAS to push through their own doubt.

I am afraid that if he does have any doubt in his mind, his shame and ego would prevent him from admitting that and trying to come back. I want to convey that I am not going to judge him or condemn him and that I am still a "safe" place IF he has the desire to work on things.

TGT, our spouses sound very similar, and please know all us LBSs have the same exact thought you've expressed above. As I am in the process of learning how to detach I am trying to "fake it 'til I make it". If my goal is lovingly detaching, I am trying to do so by being kind and non-judgemental in words, but keeping the talk to a bare minimum. Right now this means barely any communication, so I have the worry you do that my W may not realize I'm an option. But they know. Just as we know them, they know us. We've expressed our love for them in our past actions. If they are able to come back they will know we can listen.

[SteveLW]

What if I told you that in 95.75% of the cases, talking about filing for D is actually an indicator that HE IS RETHINKING THINGS. The WAS is often confused. Especially if the LBS starts to move on. The WAS starts to be eaten up with thoughts of "am I doing the right thing here?" And with most humans, when they start having doubts on something they've convinced themselves they want, they take action.....or the illusion of action. Thus "Hey, I am going to file for D but need your help."

Steve, I appreciate your intent with this post. But please, you know most of us LBS are a wreck. Please don't post statistics unless they are actual statistics. We all want to do the work while simultaneously having hope to stand strong, but pretty soon we'll start quoting that number as gospel.

I do, however, see your point and agree that the move towards filing is often an attempt by the WAS to push through their own doubt.

Sorry, I shouldn't have been flippant. The point I was making was that it was a majority of the time.

[Yail]

Totally agree! We all really value your input on these boards. You're very patient in telling everyone the same thing over and over!

[SteveLW]

Totally agree! We all really value your input on these boards. You're very patient in telling everyone the same thing over and over!

Thanks. I try to remember where I was early in my sitch.....and say the things people need to hear. Sometimes I am gentler than I should be, sometimes too harsh. But it all comes from a place of trying to help.

[TJT]

What if I told you that in 95.75% of the cases, talking about filing for D is actually an indicator that HE IS RETHINKING THINGS.

I've definitely not heard that before but I'm absolutely going to use it to make myself feel better, hah. To both Steve and burned... I do see what you're saying, I'm of course just skeptical that this is the truth with him, because why not continue to torture myself with the worst possible thinking? (I read something once - wish I could find it quickly with ease but I can't - that talked about one of the worst things about suffering being the consciousness that we are suffering. I find that to be very true, because I am constantly aware of my feelings and the flaws in my feelings or even thoughts, which just adds to the frustration that I feel and think that way to begin with!)

I also cannot think of a specific time where I've observed that type of behavior in him before. Like burned said, I probably need to let it percolate more too. Maybe I will think of other things that validate that. I do know he switches jobs a lot because he's never really happy, but doesn't necessarily have the means or (financially) or options (opportunities) to find a job he'd really love (although that was one thing I certainly offered him to do, to not work somewhere at least as a full-time, permanent arrangement until he found something he thought would be a good long-term place for him). I do feel like that behavior is somehow related to this, but I can't quite put my finger on the mechanics of it.

Even if he finally get the gumption to file, then everything else I said is true. What you said makes sense.....IF you are letting emotion and what ifs govern your life. DBing is about taking the what ifs out of the life governing business.

Yeah... I'm aware but definitely struggling to wrangle that and demonstrate it at my core. I am really trying to focus more on the whole "now" aspect of life vs. "what ifs" or "what will be", which is VERY hard because ever since I've been a little girl I have always thought about the future and planning how to get there, believing that if I do the "right" things I will achieve whatever I want to achieve.

The reality that I don't have full control over such a huge part of my life (in terms of what I would like to achieve with a specific person in a specific relationship), and how that's NEVER really truly possible, is just overwhelming. I can see how it's much easier to trust people and give your all in a relationship when you haven't experienced this type of thing because the moment you're aware of it, it ruins you. That's the other thing I mentioned in IC yesterday: I am now so afraid that I will sabotage any future relationship now that I know someone I thought was close to me is actually capable of it.

Being aware of my feelings on this and how it might be affecting me is certainly a positive thing, I know that, but you still never know how you're actually going to feel and react in a new relationship. My H is actually the first man I really honestly felt like I could trust and NEVER second-guessed myself with him until late, when all this started to happen. Funny how the people you least expect it from hurt you the most! Makes it even worse because now I feel like I can't trust myself to pick a good partner...

I also realize that anyone I really want to be with should be empathetic and understanding and supportive of what's happened in my life to the extent reasonable.

TJT, you've got this. You are a strong woman. You do not NEED this man in your life. It is okay to want him in your life, but needing him in your life makes you weak and pathetic....something you certainly are not.

I appreciate you saying that, 100%. It's weird because I actually do feel this way too. I legitimately feel like I don't need him, but I am so frustrated that I still want him! I don't want to want him if he doesn't want me! It's another thing that I feel makes it even worse; I feel even more weak and pathetic for wanting someone who doesn't see the value or want to put in the work for someone as amazing as me! Clearly that must mean I didn't make our experience together worth his while (that's my emotions talking, not my logic, because as we said before that could have nothing to do with it).

You. Are not alone.

I hate to say thank you to things like this because it's terrible for everyone, but thank you for validating. It is nice to know I'm not the only one that thinks exactly like I do (and while I read plenty of other sitches, it's always different than receiving a direct response on our own thread, you know). So thanks for responding and putting in your two cents.

[TJT]

Right now this means barely any communication, so I have the worry you do that my W may not realize I'm an option. But they know. Just as we know them, they know us. We've expressed our love for them in our past actions. If they are able to come back they will know we can listen.

Thanks for posting, Yail. I don't think I've read your sitch yet so I'll go find it later today after my afternoon meetings.

You're right and I've reminded myself of this, too. He knows me. I've emphasized what I'm willing to do and my commitment multiple times leading up to this. While he could have the same doubt about "maybe she's changed her mind" (for the negative), if he was really wanting to try, I think he'd probably be (at least he should be) more confident than not about how I would respond. I like how you worded it - "if they are ABLE to come back".

I also echo the sentiments to Steve... Steve, I really appreciate your input and dedication to responding, even if the "swirl" of one's mind is exhausting. Sometimes I do feel the sting of the harshness, and completely agree that sometimes it's like "easier said than done, don't you understand?!" but I definitely know the intent and wouldn't ask you to stop for anything! Well...maybe if my H would come back... LOL. *laughs at own desperation*

[Yail]

I read something once... that talked about one of the worst things about suffering being the consciousness that we are suffering.

This is great to keep in mind. Kind of like how "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself". Harry Potter's boggart.

I do know he switches jobs a lot because he's never really happy,... I do feel like that behavior is somehow related to this, but I can't quite put my finger on the mechanics of it.

Oh look we really did marry the same person! I wonder if it has to do with them finding their purpose in life? Feeling valued, ability to grow and connect to the world around them?

[burned]

(I read something once - wish I could find it quickly with ease but I can't - that talked about one of the worst things about suffering being the consciousness that we are suffering. I find that to be very true, because I am constantly aware of my feelings and the flaws in my feelings or even thoughts, which just adds to the frustration that I feel and think that way to begin with!)

This is a tenet of most major world religions, and especially Buddhism. Humans are the only animals (to the best of our knowledge) who can experience emotional pain, because we have the capacity to envision alternate possibilities. Most recently I came across this line of thinking (and articulated really well) in a book called 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson.

I do know he switches jobs a lot because he's never really happy

My ever so wise parents told me that this, of all things, was the number one concern they had about W the entire time they knew her, and the reason why they were not at all surprised that she'd ditch me for another man. Is that attitude part of the WW syndrome? Maybe. It's certainly yet another reason why our sitches are so eerily similar. For example:

ever since I've been a little girl I have always thought about the future and planning how to get there, believing that if I do the "right" things I will achieve whatever I want to achieve.

The reality that I don't have full control over such a huge part of my life (in terms of what I would like to achieve with a specific person in a specific relationship), and how that's NEVER really truly possible, is just overwhelming. I can see how it's much easier to trust people and give your all in a relationship when you haven't experienced this type of thing because the moment you're aware of it, it ruins you. That's the other thing I mentioned in IC yesterday: I am now so afraid that I will sabotage any future relationship now that I know someone I thought was close to me is actually capable of it.

Funny how the people you least expect it from hurt you the most! Makes it even worse because now I feel like I can't trust myself to pick a good partner...

I also realize that anyone I really want to be with should be empathetic and understanding and supportive of what's happened in my life to the extent reasonable.

I feel even more weak and pathetic for wanting someone who doesn't see the value or want to put in the work for someone as amazing as me!

And there you go again, reading my mind. These are fears that I am thoroughly familiar with. Earlier on in my sitch I was advised to sort of put them on ice, if that's something you can consciously do. Let tomorrow's worries be for tomorrow.

[TJT]

Oh look we really did marry the same person! I wonder if it has to do with them finding their purpose in life? Feeling valued, ability to grow and connect to the world around them?

I have absolutely realized in my H's case that he needs a lot of validation, and of a specific type (I think..maybe it's simply any type he's not used to!)

In fact I truly accidentally discovered a picture he was tagged in on SM recently that I had never seen before, from an event I know he attended (before all this started, but very recent to it) where a high school girl invited him to a school professional event since he "mentored" her about the field he works in, which she wanted to go into.

I remember him talking about how she gave a nice speech and called him out by name, etc. (For the record, I also remember telling him that it was nice of her, etc. and it was good he is helping others). But now here they were in a picture, and if it was anyone else it would seem normal I suppose, but now with the sitch I'm in I looked at it compleeeetely different.

Everything from the smile on his face to how close they were standing, all I could think about was what he was thinking in his head at this moment - that instead of this being something he was just proud to help someone with, he was likely feeling like Mr. Hot Stuff... "look at me and this other person giving me sooo many good feelings" (of course not putting into perspective that this is a HIGH SCHOOL GIRL who is not married to him or even has the slightest clue as to his flaws).

While I hate to think about it, because I don't want to believe he's on the spectrum of "creepy" and this girl was even younger than OW, I do feel like he also interacted with people of different ages in ways that I thought was a little off. Like, having pretty informal texting relationships with the people he managed, in a "friends" way, not in a work-related way, when he is a middle-aged man and they are, like I said, typically high school or early college age. That's one thing I did say something about once, but I'm sure you all know how that conversation turned out. Reasons, and stuff, and things, and later got used against me out of context ("Sometimes you say I'm too nice and then you say I'm too mean, which is it!?")

It's just one example but there are many other anecdotes of his work life where even the simplest compliment or admiration from others gave him the biggest ego trip...meanwhile I could say 10 positive things that wouldn't matter because of the 1 negative thing I said another time (he acknowledged this at some point, but had a "reason" as to why it was different in his mind, of course) AND the one small thing I was asking him to help ME with often went unaddressed while he is putting in all the efforts to please people at work..

Sorry, I got all riled up now ...haha. This is the stuff I definitely don't miss, that I try to remember the feelings of....but it's also the stuff that I feel we could have worked on together re: what we each needed. Totally not realistic if he's just expecting things instead of trying to understand my perspective or doing his part (and thinking that there's some deeper level of connection with someone else that's going to turn out drastically different because they tell him he's the best manager they've ever had and it's a new exciting thing to hear). Nevermind the threshold of greatness these people are used to is very low, again given their demographic, work experience, etc. Not to discount my H - he is great at what he does - but that's just the truth of the situations he's in that I don't think he realized whatsoever.

So yeah, if he's compared those experiences and people to me and our marriage, I was a little harder to impress than that. Could I have done better to positively reinforce certain things? Without a doubt. Do I deserve to be served because of it (let alone cheated on)? I don't think so.. (I also experienced the phenomenon of him suddenly doing all the little things I wished he'd have done during the normal course of our relationship once all this started, before it escalated, which made us get along briefly much better than we had in a long time...clearly not hard from him to do, but only willing to do out of guilt apparently. Like helping more around the house, saying thank you to every little thing I did for him, etc.)

Anyway, to your point, Yail, I don't think my H or your W will ever find what they're looking for if that's the rationale behind it. A part of me thinks that points to my H not ever being able to be satisfied in any relationship (especially one with someone younger and less mature who may just want to "give up" when things don't go well); but I also recognize someone less mature and more needy may be even more willing to accept his flaws and deal with them because of how much they do truly need him, whereas I didn't. Who frickin knows.

[TJT]

Humans are the only animals (to the best of our knowledge) who can experience emotional pain, because we have the capacity to envision alternate possibilities. Most recently I came across this line of thinking (and articulated really well) in a book called 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson. [quote]

Yes! Exactly. I just want to be an ant right now, amazingly intelligent but no capacity to understand feelings, lol (ants don't have feelings right?) Thank you for that recommendation. I currently have The Power of Now on my nightstand to get through too.

[quote=burned] Is that attitude part of the WW syndrome? Maybe. It's certainly yet another reason why our sitches are so eerily similar.

Ugh. Note to self... It's unfortunate because for the industry he's in, I do empathize that there's not a lot of "good" options. But for sure there were things he could have thought through a little more, or taken more steps/put in the dirty work to get his own business going, which he talked about constantly and which I encouraged him to start doing and offered to help with in any way I could. And of course, despite the fact that MY area of work is closely related to business development type stuff, he didn't seem to see me as someone who could be a partner/adviser, which made me sad, especially since I know deep down we both wanted the same thing: A teammate!

And there you go again, reading my mind. These are fears that I am thoroughly familiar with. Earlier on in my sitch I was advised to sort of put them on ice, if that's something you can consciously do. Let tomorrow's worries be for tomorrow.

Yeah, I think it's good advice and really the only option to stay sane. How are you feeling now? Has it abated some or are you still working through those fears?