[Wanted1]

That's another 180 that I suppose I could implement -- I've ALWAYS made it a point to respond to phone calls, text messages, emails, etc. in a VERY timely manner. Always. No matter who it is. If I don't respond at all it will definitely pique her interest I would think because it would be completely out of the norm for me.

W,

I get the feeling that everything you do in regards to your sitch is to get a reaction from her. Why do you feel the need to pique her interest?

Is it:
W: Whats wrong you didn't respond to my text?
Y: You know what's wrong.
W: No I don't what's wrong?
Y: You know you're texted my buddy (gotcha)

You 180 bad behaviors you have to improve yourself for you. Responding to people in a timely manner is not a bad behavior.

LH,

I know based on the history in my threads that that is a great assumption to make. And, in the past, you would be right. But I'm telling you, I'm at a different stage right now. I have NO intentions of bringing it up to her right now. None. I did earlier but like Steve mentioned, what do I gain by bringing it up? Well, I'd gain the "gotcha! I caught you lying and deceiving again!" and then afterwards I would bare the brunt of accusatory blame for invading privacy and snooping. Which would only piss me off and push her further away.

Now, I preface what I'm going to ask advice on next with trying to remind you and everyone else that I do NOT want to bring up the texts with former best friend. That is why I'm asking how to proceed with this......

So, I'm not going to respond to the text inquiring from W "if I want to talk about her thoughts on Retrovaille tonight." I'm going to go out on a limb and assume she is going to come to me after we get the kids to bed and ask if I want to talk about them. I KNOW that short circuiting that conversation with me just simply saying, "No, not really. I've changed my mind about Retrouvaille," would be the response most of you would suggest I do.

But, I want to run this by you all and see what you think.

First, I am reminded of the phrase 'leave no stone unturned.' What I mean by that is, would there be any value in listening and validating whatever these thoughts are that she wants to share? What if, by some grace of God, she does want to start dipping her toe in the pool that is R, or just simply wants to see if Retrouvaille would make a difference in our communication issues? Yes, I agree that that is probably the exact opposite of what these thoughts she speaks of are. But, remember, leave no stone unturned. Would it hurt at all if all I did was listen and validate those thoughts whether they be negative or positive?

Second, and maybe more importantly, I'm dealing with a WW that either twists anything I say into something with negative connotations and/or picks up on any sort of negative she can garner out of anything I say or do. So, a little background, my GAL this weekend was going to see a sporting event that I am incredibly passionate about. In the past, I would never miss a chance to watch my teams play. The sporting event I am going to be attending is a team that I have lived and died for. With that being the case, I can't help but be a little nervous about her insinuating that my sudden 180 on not wanting to attend Retrouvaille will be because I place this sporting event as my top priority over going to Retrouvaille. Even though, when I asked her about Retrouvaille, I said, "if we went, that means I would miss the game but my top priority is family and I'd gladly miss it if you were interested in attending." Like I said, she tries to glean anything negative from anything I say or do, so if me being selfish and wanting to go to the game instead of attend Retrouvaille with her fits her narrative, she will take it and run!

With all of that, does it makes sense to explain something in regards to my 180 about not attending Retrouvaille? Again, I do NOT want to bring up the texting I found. And I understand and appreciate 'talking too much.' It's definitely hurt me numerous times throughout this whole debacle. I want to try to prepare for any scenario that might pop up and handle it better than I have in the past.

So I need advice on:

1) Would it be wrong to listen to what she says and validate? OR
2) Short circuit the conversation and tell her I've changed my mind on it (and include this caveat) because I don't think it's something that would be beneficial to us based on where we are at right now? OR
3) Short circuit the conversation and just state "I'm not interested in discussing it because I've changed my mind." and leave it at that and let her come to any negative conclusion that helps further "justify" what she wants?

[AnotherStander]

Going back to your post a couple of pages back, prepare for some 2x4's:

Meeting with Bishop didn't really accomplish much.

Predictable. It's too soon for this. Right now she's 100% done. Later, who knows. But now is not the time for this.

Something she said in the meeting though has really bothered me. She made mention of "fearing" what I would do to her, the kids and the house and used a conversation we had a couple weeks ago as justification for those fears. During that conversation, she was frustrating me to no end with the constant focus on negatives and twisting my words to fit her narrative. I was irritated as hell and grabbed a couple tiny rubber disks that were on the counter about the size of a silver dollar and threw them down the hallway, which was in the exact opposite direction of her. I'll repeat, they were thrown in the complete opposite direction of where she was standing.

You scared her. You don't have to throw something directly at her to scare her, any kind of violent act in her presence is enough to put fear into her. I understand you say you would never strike her, but she doesn't know what you are capable of. You go on to make light of this situation explaining over and over that you would never hurt her. But words mean nothing to her right now, only actions. It's in DR, it's in Sandi's rules, and we say it over and over again. ACTIONS not WORDS. What did your ACTIONS say to her? So do a 180 on that ASAP.

This mindset tells me one of two things: 1) She is using it as a manipulation tactic to further justify her reasons for wanting to leave or 2) if she truly does fear harm from me, that speaks volumes to just how broken and fragile she is right now.

You really need to own what you did and quit trying to blame her for it, because that is EXACTLY what abusive people do. I am not saying you're abusive, but your lack of remorse over what you did is very concerning.

Once they were home and we got the kids to bed, I left to go GAL.

I don't know the dynamics of your home life but it sounds like S3 is on the same floor as you and W is in the basement. Presumably if S3 needs something he goes to the closest parent (you). So just leaving without telling your W is not a good idea. What is S3 fell down the stairs trying to find his mom? GAL doesn't mean "disappear whenever you want". Be responsible about GAL'ing. When small kids are involved then tell your W when you're planning to leave. You don't have to tell her where you are going, but do coordinate with her if you are going to leave her to take care of the kids.

She said that I can shut her out and she understands it but she would appreciate it, since we are parents together, to let her know when I'm leaving. She then claimed that S3 was up crying and wandering around upstairs while I was gone. She sleeps in the basement. She said if she would have known I was gone, she would have slept on the couch upstairs. Some of this is sort of BS because she would have gotten a notification on her phone from the security camera app showing me leaving.

It's not BS, it's a perfectly reasonable request. Don't be rude/ cold/ indifferent about your GAL. If your goal is to save the M then you've got to LOVINGLY detach. Don't depend on a security camera to inform her. That's not being mature and responsible.

I found out that there is a Retrouvaille program in the same city for this weekend. I decided that I was going to ask one last time and see if she would be interested in attending.

As Steve and others told you, this is a bad idea. She's not in the right place. When you sign up they will call both parties and ask them if they are willing to give reconciliation a try. Both spouses must be willing or you will not be allowed in. I doubt your W would get past that first question.

In the past, I would be confronting her about it as we speak. But, I'm feeling now like I should just sit on this. Monitor it a little more and see just how intense it gets, etc. I'm still waiting for the answer to Retrouvaille.

An A is a deal-killer for Retrou. They will call each of you separately and state categorically that if there's an OP involved then you can't go.

I wondering if when she tells me she's still not comfortable in going if I should just response with something like, "Ok, that's fine. I'm having second thoughts on wanting to do it at this juncture anyway, so that's probably for the best," and let her stew about why I would say that?

No just say you understand and will not broach the subject with her again.

Do I let her know that I know they are communicating again?

It depends. Can you do it calmly without yelling or throwing things? Are you prepared for things between you to be well and truly over? Because that may very well be the result. I would suggest just leaving it alone and detaching. LH is completely right about the "illusion of action" you're trapped in. You feel like you have to do SOMETHING whether it's make her go to retrou, or make her go to counseling, or throw your hands in the air and say it's over, or file for D yourself. But you don't. You don't have to do ANYTHING. In fact you SHOULDN'T do anything other than pull back and give her time and space. You've lost control and you are desperate to get it back. Hey, we've all been there (or are there). But you have to let go and let it be until you can center yourself again. It takes time, use the time wisely.

[SteveLW]

1) No that would not be wrong.
2) Instead of short circuiting, after listening and validating. "I’ve decided against going to the Retrouovaille. I feel that it would just be going through the motions at this point. I’m going to start individual counseling on my own. A lot has happened and I need help processing it so I can heal and move forward." (Oh, and then start going to IC!)
3) Don't do #3.

I've evolved since I suggested short-circuiting. Tonight is a chance for you to be the listener and validater that you hven't been before. Once she said her peace, and you validated, then you can say the above line.

[LH19]

W,

Sure if she comes to you and wants to discuss it then sure listen and validate. I don't even have a problem of you going at the thought that it will help you guys communicate better. My main concern is that you will have expectations of you going to Retro that means she wants to recon.

Who gives a $hit what she thinks about you going to see the team you are passionate about.

When you say leave "no stone unturned" I hear "illusion of action" I need to try something else to convince her to work on the marriage. How about the stone that says let her go, stop thinking there is something you can do to stop it, GAL by going to your game, detach by not giving a $hit about how she feels about you going to the game.

[AnotherStander]

So, just leave the text message hanging then? And if she comes to talk to me about it tonight, listen, validate and then state that I changed my mind?

I'm going to disagree with the others here, I do not think you should tell her you changed your mind. One of the reasons a lot of us end up here is our wives think we are controlling. We make everything in the M about ourselves and do not consider their needs. So think about this, you've asked her numerous times to go to Retrou and she's refused. Then you ask her again and she accepts. But then you tell her you changed your mind. What kind of message does that send to her? That no matter what her choice is you disagree with it. Now I'm not talking about your INTENT here, I'm talking about her PERCEPTION. And as we know, with a WAS perception is everything. The goal of DB'ing is to change her perception of you. If she thought you were controlling and manipulative and selfish then you have to be the opposite of those things. You have to let HER make the choices that guide her destiny and that of your M. So if she approaches you about Retrou then listen and validate. If she wants to go then go. If she doesn't then don't. Regardless, tell her you respect her decision and will support her in it.

I went to Retrou when my ex was already out the door. It was her idea, but unfortunately it was too soon after BD to make a difference. Despite that, it was an amazing, touching experience that I cherish, and I learned a ton about communication. A lot of the thoughts I share here on these forums on validation and communication come from my time in Retrou. So even if it doesn't save your M, you should by all means go if the opportunity presents itself.

[Wanted1]

AS,

With regard to your post with the 2x4s. You make complete sense in everything you've stated. I do feel remorse about throwing the things down the hallway and I expressed that to her individually in one of your conversations and again in front of the Bishop during our meeting. Both times I've said that I was incredibly frustrated and handled it in a manner in which I shouldn't have and that I regret it.

You made great points about GAL and after she had the talk with me I told her I would be more forth coming to her about when I'm going to be leaving, etc. Of course the ONE night I'm not there S3 wakes up.... I have the worst luck imaginable I'm telling you!

Steve, LH and AS,

Thank you all for your input. I truly appreciate it and they are good words of wisdom. I'm glad I came here today before possibly doing something to make matters worse. I will just see how it goes tonight, I guess, and let her express her thoughts on it and listen and validate as best I can.

Steve, I am already in IC. Have been since the day after BD in September.

LH, I don't really care what she thinks about me going to the game. I was more concerned with her perception of me doing a 180 and telling her I don't want to go now because of the negative connotation she would undoubtably place as the game being my top priority over Retrovaille, which we all know isn't the case. It's never "the case" in just about everything I say and do but she sure as hell tries to make it "the case!"

AS, you make a great another point about controlling and manipulating. Those are definitely things she has said I do. She has even admitted that I probably do them without even consciously knowing I am, which is the truth. We have had a weird dynamic. Due to to the abuse and trauma as a child, she has discovered that her mindset has been to always do and go along with whatever I say. Basically, be subservient to the man. One could argue that's how these As happen as well. When the man wants something, she gives in. No excuse for her, still, but I emphasize with how it's possible given what she's been through. My IC has told me quite a few times that this mindset can absolutely be a cause of sexual abuse and it does make sense when you think about it. When she doesn't speak up and voice an opinion otherwise, I naturally assume she is on board with whatever it is. I can talk til I'm blue in the face and try to explain to her that I can't be blamed for 100% of the controlling and manipulation she feels since she sort of perpetrates it, but I know not to bring that up. She needs to discover that on her own. I think this is where a lot of the resentment comes from.

[burned]

Just to back up what AS said as if it wasn't clear enough. Before I discovered DB, I did all of the things you're thinking about doing. Not once did I throw anything in her direction. I did accidentally knock something over that almost hit her.

Net result: I am on my way to D, reconciliation feels like it's entirely out of the question for all eternity, and I will forever live with the regret that I caused such unforgivable harm to a person I claimed to love. Believe me, I expressed remorse REPEATEDLY for my actions that night. 4-1/2 months later, on BD2 when she told me during MC that she was "done," I was curled in the fetal position on the couch and MC asked W, "What are you thinking/feeling right now as you look at him?" W's response: "I'm afraid he's going to hit me." And on that note, she had spent most of the previous month saying things like, "I don't feel safe around you, I can't relax in your presence."

After you've said it or done it, you can never take it back.

[TBSakaJ9]

I would just add that when you look up one day and realize you are doing nothing to save your marriage and you are doing everything for yourself to improve yourself that is when you are dbing properly. It just hit me one day out of the blue like 9 months ago and it was Bluwave that drove it home for me. You can't talk your way out of any of it. Hit the gym, eat right, buy new clothes, don't react emotionally to anything your W says. Just go about the business of taking care of you.

I promise you it will never make sense and you have to accept the fact that you will never know all the answers or completely understand what happened.

[RyanHun]

Further to what J9 said, I know it's hard but try and make the most of the situation, enjoy the freedom that the bachelor life provides. The situation [censored] but there are benefits as well you just have to look for them, want to go fishing, there is nobody to stop you, want to play poker with the guys, there is nobody to stop you, you are basically free to do as you please. Bachelor life is not all that bad and scary, get out there and make the most of it, just keep it healthy.

[Wanted1]

J9 and Ryan,

I appreciate your input and support. The thought of those things sounded so scary from the outset. Not gonna lie, I was definitely codependent. Didn't know how I could care for 3 little kids by myself, keep the house up, cook, clean and for me, do all of the work at my job since W and I worked together ever since we got out of law school. She has a new job now, so I've gotten a taste of what all of that entails and I think I'm handling it pretty amazingly. Not nearly as scary as I thought it would be. Some of that is probably the fact that I HAVE to do those things and some of it just isn't as hard as I imagined.

That said, the thought of D still freaks me out a little bit, but I don't fear it or am as intimated by it as I was initially. I know now that I'll be fine if that is indeed the path that's chosen for me. I suppose this separation period helps in that respect since I'm being 'eased' into it, so to speak.

Being able to do what I want, when I want will be a nice benefit. That and some financial savings that I'll be afforded in my situation if we end up calling it quits won't be so bad as well.

I'm a little concerned with income tax and having to file single vs. jointly though....I believe the tax brackets are much higher for filing as a single and I won't be losing much income since we both ran our business together. The income stays the same more or less..... I probably shouldn't dwell on stuff like this until I'm actually faced with it. No use worrying about it until I have to deal with it. I told my W I'm absolutely opposed to D awhile back, so if she wants it, she needs to do the work and file. Nothing has been filed yet.