Is love worth the pain? Back to Basics

[TJT]

I just want to use the MC as a forum for communication.

Does it seem to have worked up to this point? You have to realize if someone is not willing to hear you, communicating won't work.

Communication entails a sender and receiver, as well as "encoding" of the message that occurs between the two parties impacting how it's ultimately perceived.

If the way you two were approaching that communication process was the only thing broken, or even the main thing broken along with other things, I can see how it might be useful to focus on that. But as lots of folks, including yourself, have pointed out, there are much more serious things that are causing the damage in your relationship.

You have done what you could to let W know how you feel and try to improve that part - but there's nothing more you can do if those larger issues are not addressed, and you will just be beating a dead horse. She will not hear you or if she does, she won't care. Why put yourself through that over and over and over again when it hasn't been working?

[burned]

MC = 1 hour per week of scheduled, predicable PURSUIT and pressure. Don't do it until she is all in.

[Ginger1]

I just want to use the MC as a forum for communication.

But you want to communicate to to her HER problems and what you think she needs. It's for you to get what you need to get off your chest. That isn't going tohelp your situation.

[AnotherStander]

I just want to use the MC as a forum for communication.

But you want to communicate to to her HER problems and what you think she needs. It's for you to get what you need to get off your chest. That isn't going tohelp your situation.

Did, please listen to Ginger and the others!! You keep getting stuck in this trap where you think you can hand her a laundry list of her problems and somehow that will make things better. Let me ask you this, if she came to you and handed you a long list of her problems what would YOUR reaction be? I would lay a thousand dollars that you would get right to work defending every single item on her list. This is classic NGS behavior, you see no wrong in yourself and want to heap piles of blame on her. STOP IT.

I just want to use the MC as a forum for communication.

And what have we told you over and over again that "communication" with a WAS is? Her talking and you LISTENING and VALIDATING. So clearly this:

So what do I say in MC I want to say all the stuff I believe she needs to see an IC for that she holds in. I wrote about 5 min of notes in my phone. I kind of want to say them and walk out of the therapy session like you need to be on this couch.

Is NOT what you should be doing right now. I'm not sure how we can be more clear on this and you really don't seem to be getting it. You keep repeating the same damaging patterns. That's going to kill your chances of recon and prevent Did from growing.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but sometimes that's what it takes to get through, and you my friend do seem to be a little tough to get through to

Her mom hit her as a kid she was taught be seen but not heard. Her mom left her dad in the middle of the night. She has post partum. She got an abortion. She got in a drunk driving accident. She has been in unhealthy relationships. She struggles with talking about this stuff at all.

We all have checkered pasts and skeletons in our closets. Do you want to rattle the bones, or do you want to show her loving support? Because one will make you ugly and the other will make you attractive.

I guess this is fixer white knight syndrome.

Yup. You can't fix her. That's her journey to make.

[SteveLW]

I just want to use the MC as a forum for communication.

That is never going to work. MC is for two people to work on their marriage together. Not so that one is sure to have a forum that his obstinate spouse has to listen to him.

That is pressure. That is pursuit.

[SteveLW]

MC = 1 hour per week of scheduled, predicable PURSUIT and pressure. Don't do it until she is all in.

BAM, burned beat me to it.

[SteveLW]

I just want to use the MC as a forum for communication.

Does it seem to have worked up to this point? You have to realize if someone is not willing to hear you, communicating won't work.

Communication entails a sender and receiver, as well as "encoding" of the message that occurs between the two parties impacting how it's ultimately perceived.

If the way you two were approaching that communication process was the only thing broken, or even the main thing broken along with other things, I can see how it might be useful to focus on that. But as lots of folks, including yourself, have pointed out, there are much more serious things that are causing the damage in your relationship.

You have done what you could to let W know how you feel and try to improve that part - but there's nothing more you can do if those larger issues are not addressed, and you will just be beating a dead horse. She will not hear you or if she does, she won't care. Why put yourself through that over and over and over again when it hasn't been working?

This is outstanding.

[SteveLW]

Her mom hit her as a kid she was taught be seen but not heard. Her mom left her dad in the middle of the night. She has post partum. She got an abortion. She got in a drunk driving accident. She has been in unhealthy relationships. She struggles with talking about this stuff at all.

We all have checkered pasts and skeletons in our closets. Do you want to rattle the bones, or do you want to show her loving support? Because one will make you ugly and the other will make you attractive.

.

Well said. On top of that, Did reread what AS quoted for you here. Notice the one common denominator in all of that? HER.

Sometimes people need to realize that if everyone else is the problem, then maybe the real problem is them. Granted some of that stuff is out of her control. Her mom hit her (I got spanked a lot as a kid by the way!). Or her mom leaving. But have you ever stepped back and honestly assessed what you are trying to save. Some people are so damaged that there is no getting through to them.

Also, it sounds to me like you were drawn to her to rescue her. Lots of men are rescuers. There is one thing about rescuing someone....they have to want to be rescued. Life-guards have drown before trying to rescue people that "didn't want to be rescued", usually because they were too panicked to realize they were being rescued. You tried to rescue her. She was open to that once, but now no longer wants to be rescued. Your only alternative is to let her go.

You remind me of a friend of mine. When my W had her first EA in 2005 I meet a guy that was going through something similar. His W after having a child (I think their second) escaped into a world of online gaming. She caught the attention of another guy on the game, and an EA started. My friend was very impulsive and COULD NOT give her the time and space she so was begging for. We'd talk and I'd tell him to not confront her when their oldest would say that mommy was on the computer all day long. We'll call him Matt. I'd tell him "Matt, you know confronting her in the past has not gone well, don't do it. Just ignore it." The next day he'd tell me how he confronted her, how they had a huge fight, and that she was talking separation again. Matt's problem? He couldn't learn that when you touch a hot stove, you get burned. No matter how many times he got burned by touching the hot stove.

Matt and his W ended up D'd. He met another woman married her, and had kids. Matt didn't do the work he should have done (GAL, 180s, detachment (self-differentiation). And last time I talked to him his 2nd W was wanting a D.

Did, you have the chance to learn from all of this....no matter what your W ultimately decides. For your own sake and the sake of the next W in your life, DO THE WORK.

[Did]

Yes I have assessed and I am not sure I want to save our marriage. She would have to change so much and be so much more kind and I just dont see it happening at all. When I talked to her last I mentioned that kindness and gratitude were things that are important to me and she freaked out with anxiety.

Even before we got back in counseling and slept together I was saying I wasnt sure I wanted to continue DBing then I started seeing OW and she came back. Im going to just try to get over her. I gave a timetable of until Feb at therapists recommendation of how long to wait. Thats the max, doubtful it takes that long for us to grow further apart if not go back to mediation in my opinion.

I have been doing work and have more to do for sure. My attachment to her physically is the hardest part maybe I will talk to the MC about that and see her individually since she is a sex therapist and very good... We have talked less the last 5 days or so since... ever. I dont know if its me being anxious but she had mentioned going out with her gf on Wed instead of Fri last night and facetimed to talk to D4 around 4pm. I gave her the phone and walked away but did notice she still had make up on from the night before. I almost just assume she lied about who shes going out with and slept with someone. Idk why I always assume the worst and I know it does matter / is outside my control. But sht still hurts.

I had been feeling grief or heavy sadness emptiness (codepency)... then tonight came the anger... now I guess trying to get towards acceptance and back to enjoying life. Ive done this 3 times stages of grief (BD, she came back after OM1, most recent time after sex / MC). Im not doing it again if we reconnect its not going to be because shes down and needs someone.

Yes, I know theres nothing I can do. She hides from her issues while I want to mention them to the therapist and then say Im done too if you dont address these issues with IC... I dont think shell ever address them. She really thinks being alone and powerful (Idk what that means - powerful - sitting at home with wine and movies or having unhealthy relationships / communication with men?) is whats best for her. She thinks she doesnt need therapy. She has never had healthy communication and I dont think shes ever been part of a healthy family.

Unless she fully commits to IC and me and our marriage I want no part of it. I think thats what Ill say if we talk about it. Im not sure about MC Monday she had said shed go last time we talked about it. Ill go alone and work on detaching from the physical attachment or she can come if she chooses to.

Had a great night with D4, danced, music, fire, smores, got a package of abouit $2000 free lacrosse stuff from a teammate / friend I met during Hawaii trip a month ago. Continuing to work on GAL / trying to find new and reconnect old friendships.

I appreciate the advice and perspective. I will read over your notes again and add pieces to my notes. Thank you and goodnight.

[Did]

Maybe this is just being controlling again but thoughts on - we will not talk about anything but D4 unless youre in IC and decide to be committed to doing your work individually and our MR. I will only pay rent of 1325$ which is $1000 less than I’ve been paying unless we D. Just looking for opinions. I have to be stronger and tough love. Been mentally weak allowing her to be my weaknes and Mr nice guy too long.