Whenever a discussion of NGS comes up the first thing I want people to know is that the book on this (No More Mister Nice Guy) is not what the title suggests. A lot of LBS's think we are telling them not to be nice anymore. That an alpha male is rude, selfish and takes what he wants without asking while a beta is a little wussy that lets people walk all over him. So they think the solution is to quit being nice and be a jerk instead. No, that is not what the book is about and it is not what we are suggesting here. A major talking point of the book is that NG's only appear nice on the surface. Underneath they are controlling and manipulative, and they do it in very passive/aggressive ways. The title of the book simply means NG's need to recognize the faults that they've been burying for years under a nice guy facade, and reverse them. The book is a great companion read to DR because so many people that end up here are afflicted with NGS.
But NGS aside, I bet this describes 90% of the men on here: The guy the WAS fell in love with was one that had his own life, he might make time for them or might not depending on what else he had going on, took control of the dating process, showed strength, character, romance. He was fit, young, virile, handsome. Then they got married and had kids, he became complacent and accommodating to the point where the W was deciding what they would eat every night. He comes home from work tired and plops down in front of the TV while his W (who probably also spent the day at work and is tired) cooks and cleans and wrestles with the kids. He thinks it's enough that he mows once a week and brings home a paycheck. He keeps getting fatter and fatter, which in turn makes him more tired. He's pale, unhealthy, has no energy, has no desire, has no drive. Then seemingly out of nowhere he gets BD'd. What does he do in response? Laundry, dishes, cooking, taking the trash out. He becomes the ultimate maid/ housewife. He has utterly and completely forgotten what it is to be a man, what it was his W was attracted to early on.
It is normal to become codependent and more beta in marriage. It's a byproduct of sharing a home with someone and having a family. I don't think anyone expects their wife to take care of the kids 100% of the time, to clean the house, take out the garbage, mow the lawn, etc. etc. That would be unreasonable. A good husband can and should take on some of those responsibilities. Beta is not necessarily bad! But a lot of LBS's have completely surrendered their man-card in the process, and THAT is why their W loses those loving feelings.
The perfect man isn't all alpha or all beta. He is a blend of the two. One time I was naked ironing a work shirt and turned around and my girlfriend was staring at me. I was like " what is it?" She said "I think that's the sexiest thing I've ever seen you do." I was surprised, that's the last thing I would have wanted her to see is me ironing, LOL! I asked her why she found it so sexy and she said it was because I am this big, buff guy (not that I'm huge or anything but she's so tiny I look like a monster by comparison) that takes charge of everything, yet at the same time I can cook or clean or do yardwork. So it's not the alpha or beta, but rather the combination of both that she finds so attractive.
Most LBS's have the beta side down, so you don't need to double down on beta to attract your WAS back. Rather, you need to get back in touch with your alpha side. Think about men you have a man-crush on and what it is about them you find so attractive. Mirror those qualities and actions in yourself. The more you regain your alpha, the more detached you become. They go hand-in-hand. And guess what, the more attractive you become. There are some guys here that have become very alpha through this process and you can really tell it just in the way they post here. They come here full of desperation and need and exit with their chests puffed out exuding manly confidence. Whether they recon or not doesn't matter, they are WINNERS. And that's what we want for everyone here.
RR—‘A confident, masculine male doesn’t need the social confirmation of others. That is the point....’
Good reminder.
AS—You are also correct—moderation is key. Strike a balance between the two. For me, the struggle is maintaining the strength of those alpha tendencies / moments—to keep any positive momentum going, despite what I come across, but not be unloving or a jerk (rude / selfish) towards others.
I was not full blown NGS. But I definitely had aspects of it.
My two biggest learnings are:
1) I should do things for my W because I love her, not because I expect something in return. 2) Pouting about not getting my expectations met based on #1 will not help my expectations to be met in the future.
For instance, in my sitch threads I intimated how I was in a SSM. And how on the first V-day after we were married I took her to a very expensive, fancy restaurant. And thought we'd come home after and have sex. It didn't happen and I was crusty about it. In fact, I held onto that bitterness even as I was typing that story back in Feb.
AS or one of the other extremely wise vets said. "ummmm, you did something next expecting her to behave in a certain way because of it. You might want to read NMMNG."
The book was eye-opening. Did I take my W to dinner on v-day because I love her? Or did I do it because I wanted someting in return? And then when I pouted after not getting the thing I wanted in return, how did that help get what I wanted moving forward?
The NG's covert contracts, and then their response to not getting that contract met is a self-fulfilling prophecy. We have all these hidden expectations, and then act like a creep when the expectations aren't met. Which in turn causes the likelihood of those expectations getting met in the future to be highly unlikely, which causes the NG to act even more creep like!!
As a big, tall, bald Dr. with his own TV show often says: "How is that working for you?"
Last edited by Steve85; 11/30/1804:39 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I’m sure there have been times where I do things for W with some expectation in mind (we’re all human and naturally self-interested). What comes to mind is that earlier in our MR, when W took her new job and we moved west is that she talked frequently about ‘making her career the priority.’ What backfired on me was was that I would give to her for her career with the expectation (said or unsaid) that she would / could do the same for me. Guess that hasn’t worked out.
What I would also try to impress upon her then was the idea that when ‘we’ make her career ‘the priority,’ that means by definition that other things become less of a priority (family, marriage, my own career, etc.). I know, using reason and logic. That mindset of her career as a priority probably led to much of our sitch, as she still harbors anger towards me for getting her pregnant and the pregnancy thus closing off her career field (I know, not totally my fault for pregnancy).
But I also know that many times I have given as freely as I could.
Right now I’m trying to keep in mind, doing things with no expectations whatsoever. And that if I do do things, there are for me and our 2 kids—if she happens to benefit, fine.
I have a severe case of NGS that took the course of three decades for it to fester until it boiled over and exploded.
Cleanup is going to take years. I am trying to learn the tools and processes so that I can make the turn-around process as efficient as possible. What BluWave said about possibly never having her H's NGS being cured strikes a tone with me. I may never fully recover. But I am trying. Support groups, this group, books, classes, self-awareness, these are all things I am doing to exorcise the NGS demons from myself.
I am just afraid at how much more damage this is going to cause before I am...cured (?).
Guys, One thing I want to point out is we all have an excellent tool for breaking free from NSG syndrome right in front of our eyes and that is our WAS. Many of us have posted in our threads about the selfish person standing in front of us. Now our WAS is often taking selfish to a whole new and unhealthy level but ultimately they are protecting themselves without fear of what others think. I know myself, a lot of my NSG tendency is related to doing what I think others want me to do or think I should do. Now I'm not saying turn into a selfish a hole all of a sudden but stop and analyze things for a moment and ask yourself, what do I want?, what is in my best interest? does it really have any negative implications to those around me? am I doing this because I think it is what others would want me to do? and is it ultimately a healthy choice?
I'm going to use one example that is often brought up here, sleeping where we (the LBS) wants. Now with three kids we don't have an extra bedroom available so I started out my sitch sleeping on the couch until I came here and realized that was a mistake so I retook the master bedroom, but clearly gave W the choice to sleep where she desires.
What do I want? I want to sleep in my own bed What is in my best interest? Getting a good, comfortable nights sleep. I have to work, I have to look after the kids, I need to be rested. Does it really have any negative implications to those around me? Nope, if anything as mentioned above it is a positive to my company and kids if I am well rested. Sure W may be mad becasue she is now sleeping on the couch but that is her choice. Am I doing this for external reasons? I thought at the time I was sleeping on the couch to give W space and I thought it was the right thing to do. Wrong. Is it ultimately a healthy choice? I think we have covered that up above.
In my sitch, when W floated talk of separation or of a break, I told her that ‘I’m not going anywhere.’ Well, what do you mean? ‘I’m not going anywhere—these kids need me.’ Later on...I reiterated to her that I wouldn’t be going anywhere. Her: Well, what does that even mean? Me: I’m not totally sure what that would look like, but I’m not going anywhere and I’m not leaving this bed.
And I haven’t. With one exception since that mid-October talk, it’s been a SSM. And through detaching I’ve not been asking her for sex or physical intimacy.
I honestly wonder if she expected me to be a NGS and say in response to her ‘Oh yes, hun. Whatever you say. This means I have to leave and you stay with the townhouse and the kids to save the marriage because I love you so much’ and this and that and the other.
I’m not very good emotionally in the moment (I tend to need things scripted at first to have confidence), but I knew I needed to stand up to her in this regard. No way am I leaving the residence, let alone the marriage bed. She wants out bad enough? She can leave on her own.
There are all kinds of traits that women are attracted to. There are also many traits that turn women off. I have two stereo type guys that both need to drop the negative traits and pick up the attractive traits from the other.
NGS and "Bad boys".
We do not have too many "Bad boys" looking for self improvement here (I wounder why ). How many of you are physically abusive to your wife's?
But the bad boys do have traits that are attractive and all the NGS guys need to add theses traits to their thought process and behavior.
They know what they want and they go for it. They are exciting. Women love this. How many women put up with an abusive relationship for these other attractive traits? Pick up the attractive traits from the "bad boys". You will be amazed by what happens.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
In all sincerity, suggestions on how to go / where to go about picking up the attractive traits of ‘bad boys.’ What should we work on (obviously not being physically abusive, controlling or manipulative)?
). How many of you are physically abusive to your wife's?