Thanks all. I've done some light work this morning. Now off to get a cigar.
We are all going to dinner. Italian, I think. Debated about grill ribeyes but it requires too much hassle on my part.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Had one of my more enjoyable Thanksgivings at In-Laws. Ate too much. Especially pie. Stayed away from my caustic SIL and out of the normal, she hugged me upon arrival. I heard W mentioning me a few times in a favorable way. So these are good things. All is not perfect but, much improved.
For contrast: I remember years where I waited in the car to leave. I have always loved my MIL and FIL. But Ws siblings always presented a challenge. Lots of people in a small house.
Anyway, I'm sure many of you are facing increased challenges with the Holiday season. I hope you will take some time and mentally and emotionally prepare.
*Lower expectations *Watch alcohol intake. Don't increase your odds of your real feeling slipping out. lol *Let others start the discussions. If you can't just listen and validate, politely excuse yourself from the conversation.
Even though this is an emotionally difficult time of year for so many, rise above your sitch and remember it is also a tremendous opportunity to 180. WW and WH will be watching. Take advantage. And remember if you don't attract them back, you won't be able to decide if you even want them.
Take care and God bless.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So I wake up in the wee hours with this suspicion. Now I haven't had these type feelings in a very long time. 6 months or more?
Well, a couple of things enter my mind: Why now? Is this suspicion justifiable or irrational? Is it helpful? H&ll no! What do I do with it? Unless I plan to act on it, get rid of it. Right?
So I reached the conclusion that while watching TV last night W sat in a different spot. Bare with me here. She seemed intrigued by whatever she was reading. She also demonstrated a few other "out of the norm" behaviors yesterday. Nothing that screams OM just out of the norm. W was situated where I could never see what she was reading. In an effort to circumvent any suspicions I casually asked "what's you reading?" without a pause or defensive reaction, she said oh just about this Keto Diet. I accepted the response and for the time settled my mind. You see, years later I am still subject to triggers (a word I hate, BTW). Of course, I am now in better control with what I do with it. So using skills I have learned through Mindful meditation I am able to push these thoughts out of my head and return to sleep. I no longer feel victim to my thoughts.
So upon waking for the day and after coffee I conduct a brief autopsy of the night's events. I conclude that the suspicion is not rational. That I am still subject to belated hunchs. That I have progressed to the point where I will use my rational mind and not my emotional mind to stay the course. I had considered asking W where this is all going. Yea, bad RR18.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
In my GAL, 180, self-exploration journey, I have begun exploring my early childhood relationships and how they affect me now as well as my MR and other adult Rs. All in an effort to better understand and correct my faults. Besides we don't all suffer from NGS.
Well, the forces that be have led me to learn about Adult Children of Narcissistic Parents. Heady stuff indeed.
We all show tendencies for different behaviors at different times and it is easy to read or hear a certain prognosis and think, "that sounds like me". Much like reading a horoscope, generalizations about the human condition are easily applied. Seems we are all more alike than we are different, as like we tend to believe. Hence the similarities in all our stitches.
Anyway, I will say that I have heard some insightful stuff. As those that read here may remember my father died a year ago this month. I think I am gaining an understanding about our relationship and negative behaviors that I have brought to my MR. There is even some insight into why W was attracted to me in the first place. Why I feel the need to control many situations and motivations about my parenting style. At times it can get a bit scary and I have to step away from the book. In fact, the desire to dissect myself, my W and other people may very well stem from my father-son dynamic.
So I am posting this to both document my journey and suggest to anyone else here that thinks it may apply, that it may be worth a look. Introspection can be a good way to take one's mind off MR sitch and become a more balanced person.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Introspection can be a good way to take one's mind off MR sitch and become a more balanced person.
It does help a lot RR. There are all kind of patterns that we are exposed to during our childhoods. They predetermine our own behavior on adult stages. Most of MLCs are fueled by those root flaws. It´s hard to face our inner fears, but we must do that sooner or later. I was one of those MLCs zombies, still facing fears. Willingness and commitment. Couldn't be easier!...
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Four years ago I caught her in an EA. I was devastated and pitiful. My discovery was a traumatic episode and I let everyone know, wife, couples counselor, individual counselor. I caught her two more times during the next year. During all this counseling, she finally stopped and things got better. Several apologies etc. Several of the problems that were discovered were never really worked out. Communication on her part. Her personal baggage etc. I had my share too.
What were several of the problems, and why didn't they get worked out?
Was OM a co-worker, in her social circles, or long distance? Did he encouraging the EA? Did she have supporters who were enabling her in the EA? Is she still friends with them?
I assume by your quote above that the two of you went to MC? Did she make the choice to stop attending? Could you tell if she went through a period of "withdrawals"?
Was the subject of a transparency plan discussed? If so, what was her attitude about it?
When you came to the board, it was after she gave you a bomb drop of not being happy and wanting out of the MR. Overnight she apparently started being "nicer" to you. I read back through all your threads and your most common summation about her was that she was showing more respect and consideration. Can you be a little more specific?
I'll tell you upfront that I am very suspicious of WW's, especially when they are not faced with the reality or consequences of their decisions. I can't really see where she experienced loss, due to her EA. I am especially suspicious whenever a WW shows "sudden" change.....for no apparent reason. According to your posts, she turned on her nice button and has been nice and considerate since the bomb drop and separating the sleeping arrangements...…..as her own request.
I'll try to describe what I see, and I very well may stand completely alone here. You, like many newcomers, were somewhat confused by the various sources of advice/information you were receiving. Makes sense to me. In your need to believe your MR is improving, I'm concerned that you see some things the way you want to believe are happening. I also pick up on the way you state some things describing her...…...like, she "hints" or "indicates" or almost..….but there is nothing solid, so you continue feeling as if you are playing some type of guessing game about where the MR actually stands. Last night I had copied and pasted several quotes, but I'm not going back through all those threads again.
I see some LBH's who try to implement the LRT or beyond the LRT for a few days, and eventually the lines become blurred to them and they are trying to show the WW what an improved H he can be. I say the lines become blurred, b/c he starts spending more time with her, has sex with her, and talks way too much to her. He kind of loses sight that the issues have not been worked through or resolved, there has been no obvious effort from the WW to do whatever is necessary to help bring her H's healing and to be able to trust her again, she has not humbly repented of her affair, etc. They seem to find some level of normalcy in their situation, and go on with life. That's what you did after couples counseling stopped, right?
For an unrepented WW, this type of scenario works okay for her, but not for the MR. She still gets the benefit from living under the same roof with her H, but is not required to make amends. If she's being nice and considerate, it's b/c she has friend-zoned him. Bing friend-zoned does not work favorably for the MR, IMHO, when the WW has not told the H that her decision is to stay in the M. At best, they will continue to live like roommates. The resentment, hurt, mistrust, etc. will go unresolved. They simply try to create a new normal. After living in limbo for years, the H becomes more slack in his endeavors, b/c he's convinced himself they have slid over into reconciliation without her realizing it, or doing the work. I don't think the WW accidently or rots her way into having a wonderful MR. I think many LBS's let their WS come back too easily.....and your story appears to be a prime example. She lost respect for you before the A, and she never got it back. That's why she doesn't want to sleep with you. The lack of admiration has killed the attraction. Without more information, I suspect she was guilted back from her A. As you say, they get better at covering up.
RR, I want you to know that I am not unsympathetic about your situation, and I am not giving intentional 2x4's. I am honored that you sought me out to ask questions. With that said, knowing how much work the WW has to do on herself and on the MR, I can't believe she is going to accidently slip into a honest reconciliation with her H. That's kind of comparable to accidently becoming a Christian, the way I see it. I feel you are trying to find a loophole for her, and convince yourself things are progressing forward. Don't confuse normalizing with progression.
I'll refer back to my experience. When the poop really hit the fan, I stayed home from work the next day. I was a mess, crying, angry, etc. I don't remember much of what was said, but there was no move toward reconciliation on my part! I just rocked things along, and went deeper underground with my A activity. I can't remember how long this lasted before my adult child busted my neat little plan to leave the home/marriage and eventually introduce OM to my family. I had planned to make my H out to be the bad guy, so my family would be receptive to OM. I was carefully (I thought) setting the stage and preparing my kids by telling them their dad and I were having problems. That's when my daughter busted me. She had read our messages and knew most everything about the A. That's when my fantasy castle started crashing. I won't get off into all of that, but it was a pivotal moment for me.
I had to make a conscious decision, and with the help I received from my mentors, I decided to do the right thing, which was end my A and stay in the M. I approached my H, with my decision, asked if he would attend MC (he wouldn't), but anyway we did try to use a book as guidance. He wanted me to apologize. I said I was sorry, but the heart-felt apology came later after I had done some deep work on my heart. I went through withdrawals, used a transparency plan, sought pro-marriage support, learned what I could about affairs, healing after an A, experiencing the fallout, etc. I purposely stopped doing overt action that showed him disrespect. It took a little time before I started feeling the admiration, but at least, I started conducting myself with respectful behavior when interacting with him......and when not interacting with him. I watched my mouth, my attitude, etc.
There was some space between the point where I told my H I had decided to remain in the M, and when I actually dealt with the negative issues in my heart. Do you follow what I'm saying? Once I finally let go of all the resentment I had held toward my H, and I could forgive him for the stuff in the past......then true remorseful feelings came. For the first time, I felt humbled and unworthy of his forgiveness and trust. I went to my H with my heart breaking over the damage I had done to him. No longer was I ready to justify my reasons for engaging in an A. I no longer blamed my H, but took full responsibility. After that night, the loving feelings for my H begin to return. Not all at one time, and not immediately.
Perhaps you see no difference in my experience and what you are seeing in your W, IDK. My point is that she needs to make a conscious decision about the MR. As long as she continues to sleep in a separate bed, and you can't recall a moment in time where she said she wants to stay in the M and work on things...….I think there is room for a lot of doubt that she considers you to be reconciling. As I've said, I felt very fortunate to have found the board when I was still involved in the A. WW's who don't seek help are very likely to friendzone the H and cover up as much as possible, by wearing the "Nice" mask.
We have discussed doing the right thing from the "will", even though the emotions are not felt. The emotions follow the right actions, in time, if there are no ulterior motives, secret agendas, negative mindset, etc. As Believers in God, we should have a good idea of what it means to "get our heart right" with Him. The WW not only has to get her heart right with God, but she has to get it right toward her H (as I understand the Bible). Remember the rebellion? It becomes a two-fold situation when she rebels. She can start by doing what she knows is right, and pray, get counseling or whatever to help her with the negative feelings. She doesn't have to be religious, btw, but like Steve mentioned, I don't how people make it without their faith in God.
You asked me if I thought every WW had to take the same order of steps that I took. I won't go as far as to say everyone has to follow the same pattern. However, I strongly believe you must see some areas line up and match, in order to know you've got a W who has really turned her direction and she's serious about wanting to do what it takes for you to trust her again, and repair the M. Her actions, talk, and attitude will pretty much tell the story. If they don't positively match...….then she still has work to do.
What I think you were really seeking, when you asked me that question, was a loophole. You were hoping I would say that you two are slowly growing into a reconciliation. I don't think that really happens with waywards. B/c you are rug sweeping. That's part of her problem, rug sweeping. She doesn't want to talk about her A and how she's hurt you. She wants to bypass all of that, b/c it makes her feel uncomfortable. Do I think she is a WW or WAW? I think she is wayward, b/c according to your post, neither of you dealt with the preexisting issues before, during, or after her A. It was swept under the rug. You were in a SSM, and then she wants to split. That usually suggests she already had a problem respecting you as a man and was not attracted. I suspect it carried over into the bedroom, b/c she has to admire/respect you in order to desire you. Have you read how men show male dominance in the MR?
The fact that she told you she would leave when school ended back last spring, and she never moved out...…...does not mean she is having second thoughts about the M. She might, but it is not a "sign".
You really must stop "temp checking" her. WW's temp check their H, which is nothing more than sheer manipulation on part. You should be above that method and have substantial guidelines for which you base your actions, rather than going on her mood/feelings at the time. Don't you know that she is aware of what you're planning for Sundays when it's just the two of you in the house? FWIW, it was not you "standing up" to your WW. It was you making a bad call, and getting shot down.
Whenever you compromise, like you've been compromising with her, then the lines get blurred and you stay confused and make excuses for her.
She wanted a separation and you gave her a H who is trying to win her back. It's not working, so you try this or that to get a certain desired result, and that doesn't work either. So, you try to convince yourself that she is nicer, considerate, and more respectful than you've seen in a decade. Whenever you make a comment about what she's doing, you repeat how she's nice, considerate, more respectful. However, you haven't explained how she's more respectful. You've also told how she will look sad after you've said something. FWIW, that doesn't mean she feels remorse. You may be hitting close to a nerve, or she may be manipulating the entire show. You have not described how things were before the EA, so we don't have a lot to compare now with then.
So, yeah, living under the same roof......and not even knowing if the status is IHS or not...….is very, very tough. I don't want to break your heart, RR, but unless you give me more specifics...….I don't think you are reconciling without her aware. ((hugs))
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
