A familiar story with questions EIGHT

[RR17]

First, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to read back through my many threads and for typing this twice. I really do appreciate it. I have read it several times and my intention is to respond in a way that is both thought out and grateful.

RR, I want you to know that I am not unsympathetic about your situation, and I am not giving intentional 2x4's. I am honored that you sought me out to ask questions. With that said, knowing how much work the WW has to do on herself and on the MR, I can't believe she is going to accidently slip into a honest reconciliation with her H. That's kind of comparable to accidently becoming a Christian, the way I see it. I feel you are trying to find a loophole for her, and convince yourself things are progressing forward. Don't confuse normalizing with progression.

Honestly Sandi, I don't see any 2X4s in your posts. Nothing to knock me over. Nothing upsetting. But thanks for showing the sensitivity. Many of your concerns have been concerns of mine over these many months. I have always been aware and have had buy-in to your list on what is required for proper reconciliation. It just made sense to me. I am convinced that that was why I was here and a BD#2. Those necessary steps or conditions had never been met the first go round.

As for a loophole? I am not trying to find any for her. I have asked here many times if R has to start with an event. Particularly remorse. It was suggested here that all situations are different, actions speak louder than words and it seemed like we were dipping our toes. I just knew I was in Limbo. Blurry messages. I have been open to the idea that we were entering R, but I really don't feel like I manufactured it. Point is, I don't need to be in reconciliation. What I desire is just honest communication. And I an idea of what I need to do.

What were several of the problems, and why didn't they get worked out?

Remember that this was 2013 and pre-DB #1. IMO, as stated, her problems were mostly communication. She was never vocal about her wants or need and what she didn't like. She built up animosity based on not having a voice. But I'm going to focus on my faults.

I got used to this dynamic and took advantage of it. I got beat up by the recession and lost my mojo and confidence. I felt that I was competing for Ws love and attention with my 2 Ds. I became an unagreeable grouch. I was put-out whenever anything was required from me. I went from being the center of this MR to the antagonist in a family. I'm sure there is more.

Why didn't they get worked out? Like many couples, once the W conceded in MC and NC, we slipped into a new normal without addressing mostly her problems. Communications etc. As for me? Well, like many Hs here, I was shocked into getting my act together. I remember Aug. 24th 2013 having an epiphany and seeing all this wrong I was guilty of and 180ing on much of it almost instantly. The change has lasted for the most part. W say this and agreed. Sometimes saying it was late.

Things were better but I believe that one thing I never figured out was how to make W feel like she was priority #1. Not in a bata way, but you get the picture. That and not having the tools here and requiring proper reconciliation.

Was OM a co-worker, in her social circles, or long distance? Did he encouraging the EA? Did she have supporters who were enabling her in the EA? Is she still friends with them?

OM was in the next state, an old flame from pre-RR17. W was looking and OM contacted her on social media. An interesting thing is they had a couple of failed attempts to unite. I believe that both sabotaged these events. Something about being attracted to unavailable people.
There was one supporter and she is out of the picture now. I have mentioned her in my threads.

I assume by your quote above that the two of you went to MC? Did she make the choice to stop attending? Could you tell if she went through a period of "withdrawals"?

Was the subject of a transparency plan discussed? If so, what was her attitude about it?

She did go through withdrawals. As mentioned I caught her in contact 2 more times. I believe this was part of the process. I wrote about finding a journal entry where admitting struggling with NC and how she didn't want to even think about OM again. At the time, I was struggling with my own healing and had no sypathy for these withdrawals.
Yes, there was a transparency plan. She agreed and then reneged on some. Now, she seems to take steps to demonstrate transparency.

When you came to the board, it was after she gave you a bomb drop of not being happy and wanting out of the MR. Overnight she apparently started being "nicer" to you. I read back through all your threads and your most common summation about her was that she was showing more respect and consideration. Can you be a little more specific?

Yes. It was years later and she BD she wanted an S. She accused me of only wanting her for sex and thought I might move out so she could decide if D was in the cards.
This is when I found this place and DR and instituted the LRT. I refused to move out and did some other manipulative things like pushing to go forward with a D and going dark. This along with DB techniques seemed to be the reason she was much nicer. The removal of any pressure factored in. Sandi2 I was a much different LBS the second time around. No more bata blubbering or attempts to convince etc.
The respect and consideration have continued and increased. I believe it is due to my work and the tools here.

I see some LBH's who try to implement the LRT or beyond the LRT for a few days, and eventually the lines become blurred to them and they are trying to show the WW what an improved H he can be. I say the lines become blurred, b/c he starts spending more time with her, has sex with her, and talks way too much to her. He kind of loses sight that the issues have not been worked through or resolved, there has been no obvious effort from the WW to do whatever is necessary to help bring her H's healing and to be able to trust her again, she has not humbly repented of her affair, etc. They seem to find some level of normalcy in their situation, and go on with life. That's what you did after couples counseling stopped, right?

Sort of. Remember MC was upon DB #1. I initiated MC because I was Fixing my MR.(sarcastic) W ended it because IMO it exposed too much of her faults She was still speaking to this creep and asI think I have heard you say, it should really be called Divorce Counseling. In IC I was in pain and I let it fly. So yes, after that things got artificially better, new normal until BD#2.
Upon BD #2 I went to IC but based on my newly discovered DB practices, I knew better than you try to force MC on W. She didn't want to go and all this counseling gets expense. On BD#1, we had both IC, MC and a D in IC every week.
Upon BD#2 I didn't spend more time with her. I spent less. I was GAL and reading here and had my testicles. The respect and consideration were different. I attribute this to this group and MWD's books and my application. My whole approach on BD#2 was a 180 from BD#1. I wasn't pursuing or trying to fix, I was moving away and I wasn't in distress.

I will say that during one of my monologues post DB#2,(yes I know I wasn't supposed to be having R talks, it was a slip) during my pontification W broke down and was sobbing like I had never seen during all this crap. I asked what was the reason and W said she felt so bad about what she had put me through during A. It seemed genuine. During that time I had a couple of panic attacks and I was a mess. At that time happened W was still involved it wasn't a priority of her's but now she seemed remorseful. Sandi, my nature is a tendency to see the problem and miss the benefits, so I processed this as remorse for the pain but not the A. I don't know what this means, but I tell you so you might better see that I'm not an overly rosy glasses kind of guy. Being fooled scares me more than heading to divorce. I tell you these things knowing I may still be misreading. I tell you so that you might better understand and not to "sell" you on her changes.

For an unrepented WW, this type of scenario works okay for her, but not for the MR. She still gets the benefit from living under the same roof with her H, but is not required to make amends. If she's being nice and considerate, it's b/c she has friend-zoned him. Bing friend-zoned does not work favorably for the MR, IMHO, when the WW has not told the H that her decision is to stay in the M. At best, they will continue to live like roommates. The resentment, hurt, mistrust, etc. will go unresolved. They simply try to create a new normal. After living in limbo for years, the H becomes more slack in his endeavors, b/c he's convinced himself they have slid over into reconciliation without her realizing it, or doing the work. I don't think the WW accidently or rots her way into having a wonderful MR. I think many LBS's let their WS come back too easily.....and your story appears to be a prime example. She lost respect for you before the A, and she never got it back. That's why she doesn't want to sleep with you. The lack of admiration has killed the attraction. Without more information, I suspect she was guilted back from her A. As you say, they get better at covering up.

Yes, I have suspected this very scenario until I was repeatedly reminded that "actions speak louder than words" I hope other LBS read this and avoid this. I have suspected this is why the no intimacy. I wouldn't say I have become more slack, but have intentionally moved closer in an attempt to initiate intimacy, both sexual and none. I have felt like I am in the Friend-Zone for many months. We spend a lot of extra time together. I will say I have maintained a healthy autonomy that didn't ever exist before. I have encouraged her to do the same. During this year she has expanded a social circle that once consisted mostly of coworkers to Bible study and Tennis friends. I can see where this has taken a tremendous pressure off of me and the MR. We watch movies and she shares stories about her friends and I limit my stories. All in good DB fashion. One thing that has confused my thinking has been that W and I started out as friends 23 years ago. By my choice. So getting back this stage seems like a progress. I believe it in no way bypasses the need for proper R. Do I like this Friend-Zone? No, although it beats a contentious IHS, it leads to the Blurred Lines. I have prayed for months for a softening of W heart and signs of what I should be doing. From this group, I have been told to be patient and to embrace our time together.

As for what is currently in W's heart? I have no idea.
I suspect that she has been "willing" her way back. Much more after I started DBing. The increase in respect and consideration is consistent and increasing. Yes, sometimes she gets miffed at something but when she makes a decision regarding the Ds, she consults me. When we have a disagreement where she used to hold a nonverbal grudge for a couple days, she seems to move on much more quickly. She doesn't default to the idea that I am blaming her for stuff that goes wrong. I used to feel like when my feelings were taken into consideration it was out of pressure from me. Out of sight out of mind. It now seems to be intentional and none coerced. The real only fights since May have been when I tried to initiate sex and got shot down. Besides these rejections signaled that I was totally misreading the blurred signals (temp taking) they were the only times that she didn't handle something without regard to my feelings. Not because she shot me down but in the insensitivity in how she did it.

Do I think she is WW or WAW? I know that she was W upon BD#1, I suspect that she has been WAW since BD#2. I'm not sure because I don't know what is in her heart. I have focused on my stuff to change which I believed it really didn't matter because my part didn't change.

She wanted a separation and you gave her a H who is trying to win her back. It's not working, so you try this or that to get a certain desired result, and that doesn't work either. So, you try to convince yourself that she is nicer, considerate, and more respectful than you've seen in a decade. Whenever you make a comment about what she's doing, you repeat how she's nice, considerate, more respectful. However, you haven't explained how she's more respectful. You've also told how she will look sad after you've said something. FWIW, that doesn't mean she feels remorse. You may be hitting close to a nerve, or she may be manipulating the entire show. You have not described how things were before the EA, so we don't have a lot to compare now with then.

So, yeah, living under the same roof......and not even knowing if the status is IHS or not...….is very, very tough. I don't want to break your heart, RR, but unless you give me more specifics...….I don't think you are reconciling without her aware. ((hugs))

All righty, I'm nearing the final stretch. . Yes, I have tried this and that as instructed in the book. Hopefully, I have illustrated how she has been more respectful. If not, ask questions and I'll try harder. " You've also told how she will look sad after you've said something. FWIW, that doesn't mean she feels remorse. You may be hitting close to a nerve, or she may be manipulating the entire show." I have never seen her use this type of manipulation before.
I don't believe that I have convinced myself regarding respect and consideration. The changes are irrefutable.
What is behind them is still up for debate.
Honestly, if I am not in reconciliation, I'm okay with that. I really am.

So, my big question, if I am not in reconciliation and W is willing herself to be a good girl and we don't know where she is in terms of regaining feelings, but know that she doesn't have the respectful attraction to want to be intimate, What do I do with this info?

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

Thank you so much for taking the time!

[sandi2]

I think I'm more confused after reading your last post.

[RR17]

Well, thanks for looking, If there is anything I can clarify that will make it less confusing, I will gladly do so.

[SteveLW]

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

I don't usually interject when sandi is involved because she is far more advance on this stuff than I am. But I really think that you are in a much better place than you think. I think your only problem is when you stop DBing.

Trying for sex and getting shot down? Then getting upset about it? That is newbie level,and RR you are far above newbie level. One of the top rules of DBing is DO NOT INITIATE SEX. It is similar to saying ILY. After BD newbies start saying ILY like a madman. All that does is remind the WAW that she DOESN'T love her H. Same with initiating sex. All that did was remind her that she isn't attract to you like that right now.

I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

RR, if I were you, I'd double-down on the DBing. GAL like a madman. Make her see that you have a rich life outside of the MR. Continue your 180s, cement them to the point where she learns to trust them. And continue to detach. You know how I know you still aren't detached? Getting shot down for sex and reacting badly. A detached H gets shot down for sex and acts as if nothing ever happened.

RR you've got this. Keep DBing. You've seen positive results so far, don't give up now!

[neffer]

I was waiting for Sandi to answer as well. You have done a great effort RR. Keep doing some more. Patience man. Get a project together so as to focus on something outside MR. Have a common goal and start working on that. Get out of your comfort zone and go GAL. If she joins you just show her how evolved is RR 2.0, a pure DBer!

Keep walking man, you are a fighter. All my respect!

[sandi2]

I suspect that she has been WAW since BD#2.

How so? Not a trick question, just want to know how you determine it.

I just knew I was in Limbo. Blurry messages. I have been open to the idea that we were entering R, but I really don't feel like I manufactured it.

Okay, I think I know what you mean. Maybe not so much that she's trying to slip under the door, but slowly getting to the point of reconciling. Is this about right?

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What were several of the problems, and why didn't they get worked out?

Remember that this was 2013 and pre-DB #1. IMO, as stated, her problems were mostly communication. She was never vocal about her wants or need and what she didn't like. She built up animosity based on not having a voice.

But why did she feel she had no voice? Was it b/c she was too shy, didn't how to relate it to you, or was it b/c of how you would react to what she would say?

I got used to this dynamic and took advantage of it. I got beat up by the recession and lost my mojo and confidence. I felt that I was competing for Ws love and attention with my 2 Ds. I became an unagreeable grouch. I was put-out whenever anything was required from me. I went from being the center of this MR to the antagonist in a family. I'm sure there is more.

How did you take advantage?

Things were better but I believe that one thing I never figured out was how to make W feel like she was priority #1.

Was one of her main complaints about you not making her priority in your life?

OM was in the next state, an old flame from pre-RR17. W was looking and OM contacted her on social media. An interesting thing is they had a couple of failed attempts to unite. I believe that both sabotaged these events. Something about being attracted to unavailable people.

What do you mean she "was looking"? Did she and OM ever meet up?

I believe this was part of the process. I wrote about finding a journal entry where admitting struggling with NC and how she didn't want to even think about OM again.

Are you referring to discovering where she had written down part of the Lord's Prayer?

Yes, there was a transparency plan. She agreed and then reneged on some. Now, she seems to take steps to demonstrate transparency.

She didn't want you having access to reading her phone/computer activity whenever you decided to take a look?

The respect and consideration have continued and increased.

Okay, but you still aren't telling me how she's showing respect. Give me so examples.

Remember MC was upon DB #1. I initiated MC because I was Fixing my MR.(sarcastic) W ended it because IMO it exposed too much of her faults She was still speaking to this creep

So she had not ended contact with OM while attending MC? She didn't go through withdrawals while attending MC? At what point did the contact stop and she went through withdrawals?

during my pontification W broke down and was sobbing like I had never seen during all this crap. I asked what was the reason and W said she felt so bad about what she had put me through during A. It seemed genuine.

Did you not see that as her being remorseful? Just asking.

Does she go to confession and partake in Communion, etc.? (I'm not Catholic, so forgive me if I don't word it correctly.)

During that time I had a couple of panic attacks and I was a mess. At that time happened W was still involved it wasn't a priority of her's but now she seemed remorseful.

Sorry, I'm not following what you mean. Are you saying when she apologized she wasn't remorseful, but you think she is now?

I was repeatedly reminded that "actions speak louder than words" I hope other LBS read this and avoid this.

Well, it doesn't mean that advice was wrong. You may have not read the action correctly. Know what I mean? The key is when you start seeing their actions, words, and attitudes line up together.

One thing that has confused my thinking has been that W and I started out as friends 23 years ago. By my choice. So getting back this stage seems like a progress. I believe it in no way bypasses the need for proper R.

There is a season for all things. If the W is wayward, it is not profitable for the H to act as if he is her BFF. However, if she has repented and is respecting/admiring her H, then they can begin rebuilding a respectable friendship in the MR. (I went into great detail about this subject on my WW threads.) This is my opinion. You do what works.

I suspect that she has been "willing" her way back. Much more after I started DBing. The increase in respect and consideration is consistent and increasing. Yes, sometimes she gets miffed at something but when she makes a decision regarding the Ds, she consults me. When we have a disagreement where she used to hold a nonverbal grudge for a couple days, she seems to move on much more quickly. She doesn't default to the idea that I am blaming her for stuff that goes wrong. I used to feel like when my feelings were taken into consideration it was out of pressure from me. Out of sight out of mind. It now seems to be intentional and none coerced.

Okay, now you are giving few examples. Thanks.
How does she talk to you in front of the D's? Ever get sarcastic or raise her voice at you in front of them?

So, my big question, if I am not in reconciliation and W is willing herself to be a good girl and we don't know where she is in terms of regaining feelings, but know that she doesn't have the respectful attraction to want to be intimate, What do I do with this info?

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

My thing is that I have trouble understanding why would will herself to be a good girl if she's not going to tell you anything. Maybe this is part of the communication problem, of which you spoke. Has she gone to this extreme about other things? I mean, if she wanted out of IHS and save the M, would she not suggest that much to you? as she always expected you to "guess" what she was doing or what she wanted? If so, then she really needs help in communicating...….and your job just got harder. (I thought you were like most H's who've complained the W didn't express clearly what she wanted before the bomb drop.)

[RR17]

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I suspect that she has been WAW since BD#2.

How so? Not a trick question, just want to know how you determine it.

Because she has not been defiant and rebellious since BD#2. After BD#1 I saw a woman under a spell that I didn't recognize, as I have seen you describe. I don't currently believe there is an OM.

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I just knew I was in Limbo. Blurry messages. I have been open to the idea that we were entering R, but I really don't feel like I manufactured it.

Okay, I think I know what you mean. Maybe not so much that she's trying to slip under the door, but slowly getting to the point of reconciling. Is this about right?

Point was that the idea that we are entering R was not my own. I am open to it but it was not my initial idea. If this is the case, then yes, she would be slipping in under the door. IMO

But why did she feel she had no voice? Was it b/c she was too shy, didn't how to relate it to you, or was it b/c of how you would react to what she would say?

Yes. A little bit of all of the above. She was very shy as a young girl. IMO, she never "was heard" in her family. She is a great follower. I am a leader. That's how we satisfied each other's needs. I know that I abused this power. Once the girls got to a certain age they became her leader. D19 is a lot like her dad. Problems hit a peak when she turned 50. She gained some confidence due to accomplishments in her job. She gained her voice. After some adjustment, I have fully supported her newly found voice.

How did you take advantage?

I knew that I could convince her of anything. New houses, new cars, etc. I never abused her in a physical way. I just did what I wanted because I never experienced any pushback. I didn't force her to share how she really felt about decisions. For a decade she never complained. I think she both liked a dominant spouse and yet never felt she had much of a voice. This is the biggest thing that I think has changed as a product of all this muck. I celebrate and support the change.

Was one of her main complaints about you not making her priority in your life?

She never really said it. But, I realized it. I think I kind of covered this above. It was a dance we did and it was consensual.

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OM was in the next state, an old flame from pre-RR17. W was looking and OM contacted her on social media. An interesting thing is they had a couple of failed attempts to unite. I believe that both sabotaged these events. Something about being attracted to unavailable people.

What do you mean she "was looking"? Did she and OM ever meet up?

She has always been an attractive modest woman. She posted a pic in bikini and OM responded. No, I don't believe that they ever met up.

Are you referring to discovering where she had written down part of the Lord's Prayer?

No. This was after I had discovered that she was looking up OM after she said she was NC in MC. BD#1
She, to my knowledge, has had no contact since before BD#2. Lord's prayer was after BD#2 when I snooped in her bible study notes.

She didn't want you having access to reading her phone/computer activity whenever you decided to take a look?

She lied about the password on her work laptop. This was a year ago. She has since given it to me. She said she just resented me having all her passwords. Remember she was still planning to move out during this whole episode.

Okay, but you still aren't telling me how she's showing respect. Give me so examples.

This question frustrates me. I guess it's hard to convey. She doesn't go anywhere without telling me. She doesn't get defensive if I ask somewhat prying questions. Even when D19 is here she takes my interest into consideration. She tries to do the right thing, like listen to me, ask me before making plans. Asks me if I need anything when she is at the store. Makes sure there is money in my cigar account.
I feel like I have explained this before and I don't know how to do it any better. It is just a way. I feel important to her. If a D gets smart, she speaks up. She didn't do these things for a long time. Well before BD#1. I really don't know of a better way to illustrate it. If I think of better examples I will add them. I guess the fact that disagreements get settled and moved past faster than ever means something, no?

So she had not ended contact with OM while attending MC? She didn't go through withdrawals while attending MC? At what point did the contact stop and she went through withdrawals?

Gosh, this was so long ago. She said she did end contact during MC. I believe that is when withdrawals began. I guess the 2 times I discovered that contact hadn't stopped were kind of part of withdrawals. Eventually, she stopped me and told me that it was stopped. She said she was sorry but the first times, she just wasn't ready, but it was over. This was a painful time that I was healing and at that point, I felt she was honest. She wasn't happy but she was not a cheater and began willing her way back IMO. This was several years ago.

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during my pontification W broke down and was sobbing like I had never seen during all this crap. I asked what was the reason and W said she felt so bad about what she had put me through during A. It seemed genuine.

Did you not see that as her being remorseful? Just asking.

Does she go to confession and partake in Communion, etc.? (I'm not Catholic, so forgive me if I don't word it correctly.)

Sandi, I did and then I didn't. Never in my 24 years with her had I seen her so remorseful. She owned her action and felt very sorry for the pain that it caused. I questioned whether it was important for her to regret the A and not just the pain it caused me. Granted this was before she moved out of MBR.
No, we are protestant nondenominational Christians.

During that time I had a couple of panic attacks and I was a mess. At that time happened W was still involved it wasn't a priority of her's but now she seemed remorseful.

Sorry, I'm not following what you mean. Are you saying when she apologized she wasn't remorseful, but you think she is now?

Sorry, I must have been tired. I think I was explaining how shortly after BD#1 pre-DB, W begrudgingly acted like she was going to behave and I was in distress. I pulled a few apologies out during many R talks. When she broke down with the above-mentioned apology, I didn't pull it out. She now seems different. Again I can only give you my take. We don't have discussions about 5 years ago. I validate and limit my stories.

Well, it doesn't mean that advice was wrong. You may have not read the action correctly. Know what I mean? The key is when you start seeing their actions, words, and attitudes line up together.

I appreciate all the advice. We are all learning as we go along. lol Everyone here seems to think I see things worse than they really are, while you have said you think I see them better than they are.
All you have is what I give you and I try to do it in a none persuasive way.
I do see as you say, Actions, Words, and attitudes lining up. This is why I had taken the chances to initiate affection. (BTW, it has been several months) If it works it's a victory, when it fails it's a mistake and temp-taking.

There is a season for all things. If the W is wayward, it is not profitable for the H to act as if he is her BFF. However, if she has repented and is respecting/admiring her H, then they can begin rebuilding a respectable friendship in the MR. (I went into great detail about this subject on my WW threads.) This is my opinion. You do what works

Well, I kind of feel like this is where we are. I am reluctant to call it reconciliation but I see the respecting/admiring. And after reading and writing about the show of remorse, I wonder if my own inability has tainted that view. It was a while back and the respect/admiration has been slowly growing. The actions, words, and attitude do seem aligned for quite some time.

Okay, now you are giving few examples. Thanks.
How does she talk to you in front of the D's? Ever get sarcastic or raise her voice at you in front of them?

No, but she never really did. She was sarcastic when we were alone. But in front of the Ds, it was more of what she didn't do. I don't feel so much in competition with D19 anymore.

My thing is that I have trouble understanding why would will herself to be a good girl if she's not going to tell you anything. Maybe this is part of the communication problem, of which you spoke. Has she gone to this extreme about other things? I mean, if she wanted out of IHS and save the M, would she not suggest that much to you? as she always expected you to "guess" what she was doing or what she wanted? If so, then she really needs help in communicating...….and your job just got harder. (I thought you were like most H's who've complained the W didn't express clearly what she wanted before the bomb drop.)

BINGO!
I think she likes where the marriage is now. I don't think she is waiting for me to end IHS. I do think she is still waiting to see if the changes will last.
I asked her once if she has stopped the sex in order to drive me into someone else's arms so I would leave. She looked perplexed and said "no", but she had this look like she had never even pondered that possibility. Not like it wasn't a possibility but that she had never thought about it. Very strange.
She has gained a lot of freedom (although she chooses to spend most free time with me) A voice and more friends. W has gotten her groove back and I have supported it all the way.
I just don't know what to do. I don't want to make this the new normal.

[RR17]

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

I don't usually interject when sandi is involved because she is far more advance on this stuff than I am. But I really think that you are in a much better place than you think. I think your only problem is when you stop DBing.

Trying for sex and getting shot down? Then getting upset about it? That is newbie level,and RR you are far above newbie level. One of the top rules of DBing is DO NOT INITIATE SEX. It is similar to saying ILY. After BD newbies start saying ILY like a madman. All that does is remind the WAW that she DOESN'T love her H. Same with initiating sex. All that did was remind her that she isn't attract to you like that right now.

I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

RR, if I were you, I'd double-down on the DBing. GAL like a madman. Make her see that you have a rich life outside of the MR. Continue your 180s, cement them to the point where she learns to trust them. And continue to detach. You know how I know you still aren't detached? Getting shot down for sex and reacting badly. A detached H gets shot down for sex and acts as if nothing ever happened.

RR you've got this. Keep DBing. You've seen positive results so far, don't give up now!

Thanks, Steve. I don't know where you find the time to go through all these sitchs. When you say that I am in a better place than I think, I have to wonder what kind of place do I portray that I am in?

Now I get it about initiating sex. We even talked about it before I took a chance. If it was successful I would have done the right thing. Hind sights 20/20.
As for detaching. I get what you're saying, but you have to understand when actions, words, and attitudes, aline we let that wall down a bit. I will also add that it has been several months since the last time I initiated. W's actions led me to believe the time was right. In fact, I convinced myself that she wanted me to do it. I got shot down.

As for the doubling down? I don't know what that looks like. If I Get Any more of a separate Life, I will be single. I don't talk about all my extracurriculars because I feel a little bit guilty. I volunteer twice a week. Monday night Bible study. I have social events with and without W, Golf. I don't know what else to do.

I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

Oh, I get it. But what does this look like? How does one restore the respect other than the other DB techniques?

[RR17]

I was waiting for Sandi to answer as well. You have done a great effort RR. Keep doing some more. Patience man. Get a project together so as to focus on something outside MR. Have a common goal and start working on that. Get out of your comfort zone and go GAL. If she joins you just show her how evolved is RR 2.0, a pure DBer!

Keep walking man, you are a fighter. All my respect!

Thanks neffer. You've said this before. W and I are working on projects together all the time. We are. I've tried to do a better job of sharing the good times here not just the bad. In the early stages all that is shared it the blood and gets. We do several dinners just the two of us. I am helping the small business that she works for negotiating a lease. We worked together to locate the perfect new spot. Her CFO kept praising my efforts in texts and emails and she would show me.

As for GAL read my response for Steve. I really think I am pushing the point of diminishing return.

[SteveLW]

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

I don't usually interject when sandi is involved because she is far more advance on this stuff than I am. But I really think that you are in a much better place than you think. I think your only problem is when you stop DBing.

Trying for sex and getting shot down? Then getting upset about it? That is newbie level,and RR you are far above newbie level. One of the top rules of DBing is DO NOT INITIATE SEX. It is similar to saying ILY. After BD newbies start saying ILY like a madman. All that does is remind the WAW that she DOESN'T love her H. Same with initiating sex. All that did was remind her that she isn't attract to you like that right now.

I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

RR, if I were you, I'd double-down on the DBing. GAL like a madman. Make her see that you have a rich life outside of the MR. Continue your 180s, cement them to the point where she learns to trust them. And continue to detach. You know how I know you still aren't detached? Getting shot down for sex and reacting badly. A detached H gets shot down for sex and acts as if nothing ever happened.

RR you've got this. Keep DBing. You've seen positive results so far, don't give up now!

Thanks, Steve. I don't know where you find the time to go through all these sitchs.

Some days it is definitely easier than others! I think I feel an obligation, since my sitch resolved so quickly (note that doesn't mean without pain or work!), to pay it forward. Also, a lot of this is therapeutic to me, it reinforces my 180s and that I need to continue to DB, and it has also become a big part of my GAL!

When you say that I am in a better place than I think, I have to wonder what kind of place do I portray that I am in?

What I mean by this is that you have seen progress. And though you get impatient with limbo, I really feel like you have a good chance of successfully saving your marriage. When we get impatient is when we make mistakes. Look, no one likes limbo. I was in limbo for about 3 months and it felt like 3 millennia! So I get it. But understanding that progress has been made sometimes helps with that. Even when my wife was still WW and occasionally rebelling against the MR, looking back at where we had come since BD, since her sending nude pics to EA OM, since her posting a full dating profile on a dating site (w/ a full explanation of our sitch I might add!), really helped. Take the the little wins. It is like a football game where you were down by 4 TDs but have come back.....the comeback didn't happen all at once. It was a series of small victories that all added up to an eventual comeback. That is DBing.

Now I get it about initiating sex. We even talked about it before I took a chance. If it was successful I would have done the right thing. Hind sights 20/20.
As for detaching. I get what you're saying, but you have to understand when actions, words, and attitudes, aline we let that wall down a bit. I will also add that it has been several months since the last time I initiated. W's actions led me to believe the time was right. In fact, I convinced myself that she wanted me to do it. I got shot down.

Ok I misread and thought this was more recent. Sorry for that. And I understand what you mean about actions, words and attitudes. What you left out of that equation is TIME. Anyone can change actions, words and attitudes for a short time. What you are looking for here is consistent actons, words and attitudes over a LONG period of time. Months.....years even. Don't let your guard down because she was sweet one weekend. This is where so many make mistakes. Read Did's thread. His W is a master manipulator and he falls for it every time.

[quote=RR17]
As for the doubling down? I don't know what that looks like. If I Get Any more of a separate Life, I will be single. I don't talk about all my extracurriculars because I feel a little bit guilty. I volunteer twice a week. Monday night Bible study. I have social events with and without W, Golf. I don't know what else to do.

Great question. And this is a struggle a lot of us have. Especially those of us that were pretty good at GAL before BD, and that were emotionally checked out before BD. The difference is that while you are busy as much as you can be, when you are there you are emotionall, mentally, and spiritually present. She'll see, "oh he has changed, but man does he have a busy life!" Your statement about "I will be single" is exactly what you are going for! WAWs expect their Hs to curl up in the fetal position and suck their thumb post BD. When that doesn't happen guess what? Read below......

[quote]I am going to channel sandi here: Lack of attraction is rooted in a lack of respect. So instead of worrying about how to get attraction back, you have to learn how to get your respect back. And just because she is acting respectful doesn't mean she respects you! Are you respectful to the cashier at the store? Would you say you have a great deal of respect for that cashier? See the difference.

Oh, I get it. But what does this look like? How does one restore the respect other than the other DB techniques?

.....that looks like what we were just talking about! A happy, healthy, fulfilled RR17 that his wife looks at and says..."Wow, I BD him twice, and this guy just went on with life and is happier than ever!!" Imagine if when you first met your W....all those years ago...you were a sad, mopey guy. When you weren't out with her you sat at home miserable, no friends, no life, nothing to do. Do you think she would have seen you and said "Wow, this guy is awesome! I respect him sooooo much, and that makes me attracted to him!" Or would she have thought, "Wow, this guy is pathetic!"

I know when I met my W I was a busy guy. And I "fit" her into my schedule. It made her realize that I had a life.....and that she was becoming a priority to me because I was fitting her into my life. Guess what, post BD the same dynamic worked. When you sit home all the time and do nothing, and then your W asks for time and you give it to her it is like asking for water on the beach of an lake. But when you are in desert with a gallon of water and you are willing to share some with her that will have a bigger impression.

RR, those that struggle the most do GAL the worst. And those that GAL but are always looking over their shoulder to see if their WAS is noticing aren't much better off. GAL for you, like you did WHEN you were single. She'll notice, respect it, and eventually feel special when (but not until she is open to it) you start fitting her in. Again, Did's sitch is a cautionary tale about being too available to the WAW.