#8 - Piecing, Ring and coparenting

[Ready2Change]

I am now at year 8 with my lady.


I typically separate the passionate kisses from sex. IE: I will give her all kinds of kisses randomly while I am in her presence. Sometimes with a twinkle in my eye, I will say "Make out with me later?". Most of the time her response is "Of course". Other times she will come in with a kiss and I will turn and give her my cheek. We both initiate "French" kissing. When she does, I definitely prolong the interaction.

Hope this answers your question.

[SteveLW]

I am now at year 8 with my lady.


I typically separate the passionate kisses from sex. IE: I will give her all kinds of kisses randomly while I am in her presence. Sometimes with a twinkle in my eye, I will say "Make out with me later?". Most of the time her response is "Of course". Other times she will come in with a kiss and I will turn and give her my cheek. We both initiate "French" kissing. When she does, I definitely prolong the interaction.

Hope this answers your question.

Not sure but it definitely made me jealous!

[Ready2Change]

Not sure but it definitely made me jealous!

I try keeping it rated G as not to make too many jealous here

[sandi2]

Hey Steve, I saw you wave on RR17's thread. Okay, well I am far from being any kind of sex expert, but I know someone who has had sex. (joke)

I can honestly say that she was a) NOT into the sex at all and b) while she did kiss me passionately, it was very robotic and, how do I describe it, forced? Hesitant? Relunctant?

That's a good description! I suppose it was like fake passion, as if she was performing in a play. The action was there, without her feeling the emotion.

First, I want to clarify about what I meant about the passionate kissing in my other post, I was talking about when a couple is making love. Sitting on the couch smooching doesn't have to lead to slobbery kisses.....but it might. I think the key for a lot of women is that the man starts off with the lighter kisses and work up to the passionate ones. And, having sex without kissing.....or without open mouth kissing.....is not so good. Does she like for you to kiss her all over her body? Tongue kiss her all over her body?

Due to my first date experience, I was not crazy about French kissing. Actually, I like to start off just regular kissing and work up to the more sensual kisses. The more I am turned one, the more I really enjoy the French kissing. If there is anything off in my feelings for my H, it will show in my kisses. I may have sex, but I don't want to kiss him. And when I feel happy and emotionally connected to him, it will show in my kisses. That's not to say every woman is exactly like me .

I don't guess a couple would have to use their tongues, if they didn't like it. But to me, completely closed mouth kissing is another thing. I was never fond of morning sex, and dealing with mouth funk. But if he'll keep it shut, I might handle it. Closed mouth is okay for a good-bye kiss before leaving for work, or when coming home, even cuddling together while watching tv...….something like that. But when you are making love......how can you kiss passionately with a closed mouth? It seems so...….sterile. You are still young in my book, and if she is saying age diminishes kisses...…...she is not into kissing, for some reason. Maybe your technique has changed a bit, without you really being that aware of it, or maybe it's something else......(I wrote more about this on RR17's thread today). I suspect it has more to do with her, than with your technique. If she won't honestly discuss it with you, then it puts you in an awkward situation. Just don't buy into what she says about the age factor. You have many years left before even thinking along those lines.

However the couple kisses when making love, the intensity should build. You know how it's said the eyes are the windows to the soul? Well, that's how I think women are with kissing. As crazy as it may sound, French kissing is more personal or intimate for women. They can kind of emotionally remove themselves when having intercourse, or they may fantasize they are with someone else. It's harder to do with kissing, b/c she is literally opening herself and tasting him. It's very personal for her. I read somewhere that works kind of like pain sending messages to the brain. The closer to the brain, the more intense we feel the pain. Who knew kissing worked the same way!!

Their kisses tell the real story, IMHO. If she's making excuses for not kissing...….something's off somewhere. If everything else seems to be going fine, then I suggest you devote more time in emotional intimacy before entering into the physical intimacy. If she likes to cuddle, play, flirt, smooch, pillow talk, whatever.....give her plenty of it. When a man wants to make love to his wife.....he needs to start with her head/mind and work downward. If he wants to make love that night, he needs to start prepping her that morning. By that, I mean don't wait till bedtime when she's exhausted and then decide to go for the cookie. Be charming all the time, even if you don't get sex out of the deal. Speak to her in her love language, and if you don't know what it is......then you are probably not giving her the emotional intimacy she desires. By now, most people have heard about the love languages book. It can be a real eye opener.

I should mention that being the typical knot-headed guy, I tended to only kiss that right before, during, and after sex. So maybe that is her hangup? She equates it to when she would engage in sex with me when she didn't want to (pretty much 90% of our sex life leading up to BD last year).

If you'll read my last post to RR17, you'll see where I spoke of how my H only went to bed with me when he wanted sex. Otherwise he stayed up watching tv. And, after we had sex, he'd immediately get back up to watch tv. How do you think it made me feel? I felt very used, and I resented him highly. So, my advice is that you start incorporating some little kisses throughout the day or evening. Do it every day/night.....not just when you want sex. Consistency is key. I'm not saying you have to joke and tease her everyday, especially if she doesn't feel well, but be consistent in your affectionate touches and kisses. She should not relate your kiss as meaning you will be trying to get sex from her. I think that's what you need to change. She knows the only time you kiss her is when you have sex. So......change things up. Surprise her and have some kissing and cuddling without sex. Are you playing, teasing & flirting with her? You know, like when you were first dating?

I could be wrong about her, but I think she's holding something back. Maybe her feelings just have not caught up with her "doing the right thing" actions, yet.

[Jim1234]

Steve, I don't think there's any definitive answer we can give you. On the one hand, it could be she's just not into kissing, on the other, like Sandi said, it could be indicative of something much bigger. None of us can tell you.

It's definitely something you need to talk about.

It sounds like you're doing great, and I'm sure it's just going to be a little bump in the road.

[MMM12]

I've been ruminating on sandi's response to RR17 yesterday. Link to sandi's post here

Specifically this section:

Would she do a lot of kissing mouth to mouth? See, when a woman has sex with a man she is not feeling much attraction for, it's not unusual for her to try to avoid the passionate tongue kissing. She'll engage with the intercourse, but she doesn't want to have the deep kisses. But if she is wildly attracted to the man, she'll want a lot of passionate kisses. Some men don't know that, and they think b/c she's had intercourse or oral sex that everything is good with her. Ah, but he better check out those kisses.

Hopefully sandi reads this and comments on my particular sitch. This is the one thing that is still lacking in MR 2.0. Going back to the very infrequent times we would have sex prior to BD last year, I can honestly say that she was a) NOT into the sex at all and b) while she did kiss me passionately, it was very robotic and, how do I describe it, forced? Hesitant? Relunctant?

Since MR 2.0 and full R and piecing, she is much more into sex. The sex has been great. But while we were still in our sitch she initiated sex with a request of no kissing. And that has continued right through until now. I then read sandi's comments to RR17 and they hit me square in the face.

Last night I just brought it up. I've been much more direct with things in MR 2.0 and as I've let go of my NGS tendencies. She seems to think this is normal. That now that we are "older" that it just natural not to make-out like teenagers. However, it makes me wonder if she is just not "wildly attracted" to me.

I guess my question for the group, especially those in the same age range as us, is do you guys passionately, french kiss? Or is that something that has gone away as you've grown older.

I should mention that being the typical knot-headed guy, I tended to only kiss that right before, during, and after sex. So maybe that is her hangup? She equates it to when she would engage in sex with me when she didn't want to (pretty much 90% of our sex life leading up to BD last year).

I should also point out that every things else is on point in MR 2.0. It really has been great. We've done proper conflict resolution. We've been a great team. The affection (both sexual and non-sexual) in all other areas have been great. The only other "complaint" I've heard is that sometimes I drag phone conversations out too long, but for reference she has never been a big fan of talking on the phone.

Anyway, thoughts?

I had an aha moment when I read this, and it all makes complete sense to me. For the last year or so i did not want to kiss my H. I would have sex, but not kiss. It was definitely an emotional connection thing. He was very much like Sandi described as in he would only kiss or show true affection when he wanted sex or I was always annoyed about something he did/said and I had no desire to kiss him. I'm not an expert but wanted to chime in as I didn't connect the dots of why I didn't want to kiss.

[SteveLW]

Hey Steve, I saw you wave on RR17's thread. Okay, well I am far from being any kind of sex expert, but I know someone who has had sex. (joke)

Thank you so much sandi!

I can honestly say that she was a) NOT into the sex at all and b) while she did kiss me passionately, it was very robotic and, how do I describe it, forced? Hesitant? Relunctant?

That's a good description! I suppose it was like fake passion, as if she was performing in a play. The action was there, without her feeling the emotion.

First, I want to clarify about what I meant about the passionate kissing in my other post, I was talking about when a couple is making love. Sitting on the couch smooching doesn't have to lead to slobbery kisses.....but it might. I think the key for a lot of women is that the man starts off with the lighter kisses and work up to the passionate ones. And, having sex without kissing.....or without open mouth kissing.....is not so good. Does she like for you to kiss her all over her body? Tongue kiss her all over her body?

Yes she enjoys kissing her body, including tongue. And reciprocates! But mouth kisses are all closed mouth. Before, during and after sex.

Due to my first date experience, I was not crazy about French kissing. Actually, I like to start off just regular kissing and work up to the more sensual kisses. The more I am turned one, the more I really enjoy the French kissing. If there is anything off in my feelings for my H, it will show in my kisses. I may have sex, but I don't want to kiss him. And when I feel happy and emotionally connected to him, it will show in my kisses. That's not to say every woman is exactly like me .

Yes and this is what is concerning me. We seem more connected than any time since we were dating. There are lots of activities that bear this out.. But the lack of passionate kissing is still a concern because she used to do that and enjoy that so much. I do not think it is anything physical. I practice good hygiene, always have. I a bit OCD and even a germaphobe. A neat freak to a fault.

Also, I should mention that when she was in her 2005 EA, she never met the guy in person. But it has progressed to the point where they were considering (he was pushing) to meet for lunch. She told some girlfriends of hers in an email that she never would have "cheated" (I think this meant progressing to a PA since the EA itself was cheating) but that she just wanted one kiss with someone she was hot for.

I don't guess a couple would have to use their tongues, if they didn't like it. But to me, completely closed mouth kissing is another thing. I was never fond of morning sex, and dealing with mouth funk. But if he'll keep it shut, I might handle it. Closed mouth is okay for a good-bye kiss before leaving for work, or when coming home, even cuddling together while watching tv...….something like that. But when you are making love......how can you kiss passionately with a closed mouth? It seems so...….sterile. You are still young in my book, and if she is saying age diminishes kisses...…...she is not into kissing, for some reason. Maybe your technique has changed a bit, without you really being that aware of it, or maybe it's something else......(I wrote more about this on RR17's thread today). I suspect it has more to do with her, than with your technique. If she won't honestly discuss it with you, then it puts you in an awkward situation. Just don't buy into what she says about the age factor. You have many years left before even thinking along those lines.

I don't think it is my technique. She always complimented me on that, but I guess it could be. It is definitely a preference she now has not to kiss that way. Admittedly even 9 months into Ring there are some things that haven't come back completely yet. She isn't as affectionate as he was years ago. Things like putting her hand on my back, taking my hand, etc. Not up to pre, say 2013 levels yet. Some things that were missing for a while are back. Like kissing and hugging goodbye and hello. Our communication is better than maybe it has ever been. We do flirt and make innuendo. It has been really good for the last 9 months.

However the couple kisses when making love, the intensity should build. You know how it's said the eyes are the windows to the soul? Well, that's how I think women are with kissing. As crazy as it may sound, French kissing is more personal or intimate for women. They can kind of emotionally remove themselves when having intercourse, or they may fantasize they are with someone else. It's harder to do with kissing, b/c she is literally opening herself and tasting him. It's very personal for her. I read somewhere that works kind of like pain sending messages to the brain. The closer to the brain, the more intense we feel the pain. Who knew kissing worked the same way!!

Their kisses tell the real story, IMHO. If she's making excuses for not kissing...….something's off somewhere. If everything else seems to be going fine, then I suggest you devote more time in emotional intimacy before entering into the physical intimacy. If she likes to cuddle, play, flirt, smooch, pillow talk, whatever.....give her plenty of it. When a man wants to make love to his wife.....he needs to start with her head/mind and work downward. If he wants to make love that night, he needs to start prepping her that morning. By that, I mean don't wait till bedtime when she's exhausted and then decide to go for the cookie. Be charming all the time, even if you don't get sex out of the deal. Speak to her in her love language, and if you don't know what it is......then you are probably not giving her the emotional intimacy she desires. By now, most people have heard about the love languages book. It can be a real eye opener.

sandi you may be right. As I said I mentioned it to her the other night. But I will definitely be bringing the issue up in MC as soon as we restart it. Your words have really resonated with me. If she had never been into it that would be one thing. Like (sorry if this is too graphic) oral sex. She let it be known shortly after we were married that she never liked giving, that it grossed her out. I can live without it (not that I didn't really enjoy it! but I get hat some people aren't into it). But passionate tongue kisses have never ceased until BD last Dec. So it is a bit disconcerting.

I should mention that being the typical knot-headed guy, I tended to only kiss that right before, during, and after sex. So maybe that is her hangup? She equates it to when she would engage in sex with me when she didn't want to (pretty much 90% of our sex life leading up to BD last year).

If you'll read my last post to RR17, you'll see where I spoke of how my H only went to bed with me when he wanted sex. Otherwise he stayed up watching tv. And, after we had sex, he'd immediately get back up to watch tv. How do you think it made me feel? I felt very used, and I resented him highly. So, my advice is that you start incorporating some little kisses throughout the day or evening. Do it every day/night.....not just when you want sex. Consistency is key. I'm not saying you have to joke and tease her everyday, especially if she doesn't feel well, but be consistent in your affectionate touches and kisses. She should not relate your kiss as meaning you will be trying to get sex from her. I think that's what you need to change. She knows the only time you kiss her is when you have sex. So......change things up. Surprise her and have some kissing and cuddling without sex. Are you playing, teasing & flirting with her? You know, like when you were first dating?

I could be wrong about her, but I think she's holding something back. Maybe her feelings just have not caught up with her "doing the right thing" actions, yet.

Good stuff sandi. Yes we are much better at the non-sexual flirting touching, etc than before. As I said, she isn't back to the level she was 6-7 years ago with some of it (except for the sexual talk and innuendo). Also we have a lot of snuggle time, both without sex and before and after sex too. I admit to having become a selfish lover like your H. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am....and then right to sleep. But the last 9 months have been much better and more connected.

Anyway my plan on the kissing is to monitor it. And then discuss it with the MC. Thank you so much sandi! I really think a lot of the great advice you provided early on in my sitch is why we are Ring.

[SteveLW]

Steve, I don't think there's any definitive answer we can give you. On the one hand, it could be she's just not into kissing, on the other, like Sandi said, it could be indicative of something much bigger. None of us can tell you.

It's definitely something you need to talk about.

It sounds like you're doing great, and I'm sure it's just going to be a little bump in the road.

Thanks Jim. Yeah it is hard to say. In some ways I think through the Ring and piecing she has been doing a "fake it until you make it" effort. This could just be more overthinking it, but the lack of passionate kissing and the lack of the full on affection like she engaged in when she was younger make me wonder if her heart is into it fully. There are other actions and deeds that suggest that it is. Ring and piecing, as I've said before, in many ways has been harder than going through limbo! I think those in limbo think I am exaggerating. But now I know why people say the easy thing to do is just to throw in the towel and move on.

[SteveLW]

I've been ruminating on sandi's response to RR17 yesterday. Link to sandi's post here

Specifically this section:

Would she do a lot of kissing mouth to mouth? See, when a woman has sex with a man she is not feeling much attraction for, it's not unusual for her to try to avoid the passionate tongue kissing. She'll engage with the intercourse, but she doesn't want to have the deep kisses. But if she is wildly attracted to the man, she'll want a lot of passionate kisses. Some men don't know that, and they think b/c she's had intercourse or oral sex that everything is good with her. Ah, but he better check out those kisses.

Hopefully sandi reads this and comments on my particular sitch. This is the one thing that is still lacking in MR 2.0. Going back to the very infrequent times we would have sex prior to BD last year, I can honestly say that she was a) NOT into the sex at all and b) while she did kiss me passionately, it was very robotic and, how do I describe it, forced? Hesitant? Relunctant?

Since MR 2.0 and full R and piecing, she is much more into sex. The sex has been great. But while we were still in our sitch she initiated sex with a request of no kissing. And that has continued right through until now. I then read sandi's comments to RR17 and they hit me square in the face.

Last night I just brought it up. I've been much more direct with things in MR 2.0 and as I've let go of my NGS tendencies. She seems to think this is normal. That now that we are "older" that it just natural not to make-out like teenagers. However, it makes me wonder if she is just not "wildly attracted" to me.

I guess my question for the group, especially those in the same age range as us, is do you guys passionately, french kiss? Or is that something that has gone away as you've grown older.

I should mention that being the typical knot-headed guy, I tended to only kiss that right before, during, and after sex. So maybe that is her hangup? She equates it to when she would engage in sex with me when she didn't want to (pretty much 90% of our sex life leading up to BD last year).

I should also point out that every things else is on point in MR 2.0. It really has been great. We've done proper conflict resolution. We've been a great team. The affection (both sexual and non-sexual) in all other areas have been great. The only other "complaint" I've heard is that sometimes I drag phone conversations out too long, but for reference she has never been a big fan of talking on the phone.

Anyway, thoughts?

I had an aha moment when I read this, and it all makes complete sense to me. For the last year or so i did not want to kiss my H. I would have sex, but not kiss. It was definitely an emotional connection thing. He was very much like Sandi described as in he would only kiss or show true affection when he wanted sex or I was always annoyed about something he did/said and I had no desire to kiss him. I'm not an expert but wanted to chime in as I didn't connect the dots of why I didn't want to kiss.

Did it ever return? Do you want to kiss him now?

[sandi2]

Also, I should mention that when she was in her 2005 EA, she never met the guy in person. But it has progressed to the point where they were considering (he was pushing) to meet for lunch. She told some girlfriends of hers in an email that she never would have "cheated" (I think this meant progressing to a PA since the EA itself was cheating) but that she just wanted one kiss with someone she was hot for.

I had similar thoughts/feelings about the same thing. I think it speaks of the mental/emotional condition of a woman when she is considering a PA. She was desiring the experience of hot feelings for another guy and engage in kissing. It's part of the fantasy. For me, it was partly b/c I felt so dead inwardly. The EA made me feel alive again. I wanted to feel like a desirable woman, and to feel the excitement and thrill from passionate love making. IMHO, when a spouse is in this type of mindset, it causes her to be more susceptible or vulnerable for a PA. She has let down her defenses. It's like she consciously (or unconsciously) seeking someone to make her feel good.....but she's seeking it outside the bonds of her M.

Admittedly even 9 months into Ring there are some things that haven't come back completely yet. She isn't as affectionate as he was years ago. Things like putting her hand on my back, taking my hand, etc. Not up to pre, say 2013 levels yet. Some things that were missing for a while are back. Like kissing and hugging goodbye and hello. Our communication is better than maybe it has ever been. We do flirt and make innuendo. It has been really good for the last 9 months.

Well, she probably still needs to work on some of her heart issues, IDK. I do believe finding a good therapist could help her.....and help both of you as a couple. Some of the things you listed in the quote above falling into lazy or neglectful habits. If you sense she doesn't want the front to front hugs, then do the side to side......but you may need to initiate them. Yes, I said initiate. Once you are in piecing and she is cooperating and working on herself/MR, you may not need to continue applying all of the 37 rules you were implementing when the MR was headed to divorce. When the M reaches the piecing stage, some of those rules may need to be tweaked...….it just depends on the situation. We can talk more about this, if you need it. It's a tricky spot, and everyone's piecing sitch may vary, so it's difficult to give a "one size fits all" advice in this stage. I do think the recovering WW needs a lot of positive support, without feeling pressured and smothered.

I can't remember if she repented from her waywardness, but if she did and if she's trying to follow through with all the right behavior/actions......that's good. Maybe her feelings about intimacy have not fully returned yet. I encourage you to continue the non-sexual touching, even if she does not do likewise. You should know her well enough to determine by her body language if she feels uncomfortable with any type of touch.

Your words have really resonated with me. If she had never been into it that would be one thing. Like (sorry if this is too graphic) oral sex. She let it be known shortly after we were married that she never liked giving, that it grossed her out.

So, it was sort of her way of giving you notice not to expect oral from her? Has she never given you oral? If she had a bad experience before getting M, that may have turned her off for life....IDK. I think having good sex requires a positive and healthy mental attitude about sex, and loving participation from both spouses. If she has some hang-ups, then sex therapy might help, IDK. Just suggesting. She has to admit (at least to herself) that it is a hang-up, I think, rather than just passing it off as not being her preference. She might would discuss it with a therapist in private, rather than in your presence. Again, IDK. I'm just throwing my thoughts out here.

I admit to having become a selfish lover like your H. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am....and then right to sleep.

I don't think it would have bothered me if he had gone to sleep afterwards. I just wanted him to stay in bed with me. As soon as sex was over.....he'd get up and go to the couch to watch tv until he drifted to sleep.
From what I've read, it is natural for a man to want to go to sleep after sex. Maybe she wants to talk, IDK. Maybe she wants to get some sleep, too. Learning the differences in men and women, and especially if we M someone very opposite from ourselves.....is a fascinating study.