Okay.....I have been really confused, but I think I have a little better understanding now. I think I am seeing the two of you in a different light after reading your reply to my previous post. So, I'm going to start giving you advice based on how you've recently described your W. I don't want to confuse you, and I don't want another reader to see this post and think it applies to their situation, especially if they have a wayward W. If things start going south, we can always take a different course of action.
At this point, we won't hash and rehash about her being a wayward or WAW, or try to figure out exactly where you stand in the MR. After reading your reply, I don't see you like a H with NGS......which is a good thing. From what you've said, she waits on you to lead, and she wants to spend time with you and is not doing anything that makes you feel disrespected, plus she has stated she is feeling happier. So. we'll go start at this point, if that's okay with you.
I am thinking that her biggest issue, currently, is physical intimacy. Did I understand you to say that there had been a SSM in the past? Was this before your job problems or afterwards? Did your W always participate as though she really enjoyed sex? Be honest. Would she do a lot of kissing mouth to mouth? See, when a woman has sex with a man she is not feeling much attraction for, it's not unusual for her to try to avoid the passionate tongue kissing. She'll engage with the intercourse, but she doesn't want to have the deep kisses. But if she is wildly attracted to the man, she'll want a lot of passionate kisses. Some men don't know that, and they think b/c she's had intercourse or oral sex that everything is good with her. Ah, but he better check out those kisses.
Anyway, you need to remain in the MBR. Don't pressure her to sleep with you. Don't drop hints or make jokes about sex or anything of that nature, okay? I may be wrong, but I'm wondering if her hold up from moving back in the MBR is due to not wanting to engage in physical intimacy. If that's the case, then you can work to draw attraction without engaging in the sexual act. We can talk more about that later.
I don't want you to come on too strong all at once, b/c it will cause her to pull away. So stay balanced with what I'm going to suggest. I think you are already participating in family activities. I think you said you flirt with her? Okay, just don't make it about sex. In other words, flirt as if you had just met her and want to get to know her better. You would compliment her about her pretty eyes, or hair, or what she is wearing. Don't sound like a husband, "You look really nice". Be specific. Also, you can complement her about anything she does well, like cooking your favorite dish, or keeping the house clean, or whatever. Just don't pour it on all at once. Spread it out. The secret is not to overkill, b/c if you do, it's going to have the opposite effect of what you want.
You need to be charming, fun, mysterious, interesting, positive, etc. This is what she needs to be seeing her H. Not some man who is negative, dull, in a bad mood, etc. Leave her wanting more. Just don't hint that any of it is to get her in your bed. Since she is not wanting to have sex with you, then the more you make suggestive sexual innuendos, the more turned off she's going to feel. Just so you understand, if she should surprise you and show up in your bed, don't go for the cookie right away. Play it by ear, and take it slow. If she just wants to get it over with, then she'll probably want you to go straight for the cookie. (Confused?)
Anyway, on with the plan of action. During the month of December, you can take advantage of holiday fun, events, traditions, family stuff, etc. You can even invite her along when you go out. If she doesn't want to, that's okay and don't show disappointment. I think as long as she doesn't feel pressured sexually, she'll be good with this change in you. During this month and up till New Years Eve, I want you to incorporate more physical touches, but they have to be non-sexual touches.
When the two of you are out in public, you can take her by the hand if you are trying to get through a crowd......but don't hold hands with her when you are just walking side by side, or sitting together, etc. Know the difference? When you go out into a restaurant to be seated, for example, put your hand on the small of her back to show you are guiding her (in a protective sort of way) to your seats. You can do this whenever the two of you start through doors, enter or exit an elevator, etc. You can touch her elbow, her shoulder, back, arms, and (sometimes) her waist ...….in non-sexual, non-creepy ways. Don't leave your hand there long, just make it a causal touch, like if you pass her in the hallway, or are standing by her, or whatever. I'm sure you remember a time when it felt natural. You want to get back to that point, without drawing attention to it, and without her feeling uncomfortable. This is nothing you need to discuss with her. If you do it correctly, and she still objects...….then let us know.
You can make plans together, talk about what to get everyone for Christmas, etc. Show her that you are interested, rather than just leaving it up to whatever she decides to pick out. Know what I mean? It's just an opportunity to show off your best side. Show her those improvements you've been making. Like I keep cautioning you, just don't smother her with your presence or pour too much on too suddenly. You want to allow it to build upward.
If she seems to respond positively, and is acting happier in the days leading up to Christmas, then I think you should buy her a gift. Right now, and until you can determine more as it gets closer to Christmas, I don't think you need to go overboard on a expensive gift, but get something that shows you've put some thought into it, and something she'd like.
I can write more later, but for now.....how do you feel about my suggestions? If this is off track, I think you'll know soon enough. Resist the urge to explain to her why you seem different or have changed. Some H's just can't contain themselves! Do not initiate talk about the relationship, the status of M, or your future together. If she initiates a positive discussion, then you can join into the conversation......as long as you don't appear to be explaining to her what you've been trying to accomplish, etc. I hope you know what I mean. I see this a lot in nice guy H's.
Remember, stay balanced about what I am suggesting. If I have totally blown your mind, tell me, and I'll step back.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I am thinking that her biggest issue, currently, is physical intimacy. Did I understand you to say that there had been a SSM in the past? Was this before your job problems or afterwards? Did your W always participate as though she really enjoyed sex? Be honest. Would she do a lot of kissing mouth to mouth? See, when a woman has sex with a man she is not feeling much attraction for, it's not unusual for her to try to avoid the passionate tongue kissing. She'll engage with the intercourse, but she doesn't want to have the deep kisses. But if she is wildly attracted to the man, she'll want a lot of passionate kisses. Some men don't know that, and they think b/c she's had intercourse or oral sex that everything is good with her. Ah, but he better check out those kisses.
SSM, lol. Several posts ago I read this and thought Same Sex Marriage. I was like"What?". I'm going to be as honest here as possible. We had a lot of sex in the beginning. After a while, my appetite was not fulfilled. Twice a week, three weeks a month. In retrospect, it may have been the quality and not quantity. Sandi, what you have described is exactly what has gone on. Little to no kisses. If I tried deep tongue kisses she pulled back. So you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. I thought it was just getting older and perhaps cigars. I took special measures to make sure it wasn't cigars. She said she couldn't smell cigars. But yes. Sex was something she would dole out like some sort of allowance and I resented it. I was always perplexed because once we got started she always seemed to enjoy the experience. Multi-orgasmic every time. I made sure of it. But there was always a hint of psychological removal. Like she wasn't emotionally involved. I thought it was a hang-up about sex. I read about and watched many videos about the messages little girls get yadda yadda yadda. One day back in the Spring this year she was reluctantly about to participate and I told her that I didn't want her to do it is she didn't want to. I had thought that the sexual attraction stage and the physical stage were just mixed up as I have read, happens in many women. Well, she said, "I don't want to." I said Okay and in an understanding way I accepted it. That was like 6 months ago and I have tried to initiate it 2 or three times since. Things seemed to be progressing and it seemed she was waiting for me. I was wrong. One time I took issue with the way she insensitively handled the rejection and after bringing my story here I get reminded that I screwed up and need to detach etc. I wasn't so much that I was attached to the outcome. I had lowered my defenses to be as genuine as possible and she, in a no regard for my feelings way, didn't handle well. Everything thing else in the R at the time said she was concerned with my feelings. I hope I have explained this well enough.
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Anyway, you need to remain in the MBR. Don't pressure her to sleep with you. Don't drop hints or make jokes about sex or anything of that nature, okay? I may be wrong, but I'm wondering if her hold up from moving back in the MBR is due to not wanting to engage in physical intimacy. If that's the case, then you can work to draw attraction without engaging in the sexual act. We can talk more about that later.
I think you are correct.
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I don't want you to come on too strong all at once, b/c it will cause her to pull away. So stay balanced with what I'm going to suggest. I think you are already participating in family activities. I think you said you flirt with her? Okay, just don't make it about sex. In other words, flirt as if you had just met her and want to get to know her better. You would compliment her about her pretty eyes, or hair, or what she is wearing. Don't sound like a husband, "You look really nice". Be specific. Also, you can complement her about anything she does well, like cooking your favorite dish, or keeping the house clean, or whatever. Just don't pour it on all at once. Spread it out. The secret is not to overkill, b/c if you do, it's going to have the opposite effect of what you want.
This is kind of what I've been doing recently. I'm glad to hear you say it and too little is better than too much.
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You need to be charming, fun, mysterious, interesting, positive, etc. This is what she needs to be seeing her H. Not some man who is negative, dull, in a bad mood, etc. Leave her wanting more. Just don't hint that any of it is to get her in your bed. Since she is not wanting to have sex with you, then the more you make suggestive sexual innuendos, the more turned off she's going to feel. Just so you understand, if she should surprise you and show up in your bed, don't go for the cookie right away. Play it by ear, and take it slow. If she just wants to get it over with, then she'll probably want you to go straight for the cookie. (Confused?)
I get it.
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You need to be charming, fun, mysterious, interesting, positive, etc. This is what she needs to be seeing her H. Not some man who is negative, dull, in a bad mood, etc. Leave her wanting more. Just don't hint that any of it is to get her in your bed. Since she is not wanting to have sex with you, then the more you make suggestive sexual innuendos, the more turned off she's going to feel. Just so you understand, if she should surprise you and show up in your bed, don't go for the cookie right away. Play it by ear, and take it slow. If she just wants to get it over with, then she'll probably want you to go straight for the cookie. (Confused?)
Anyway, on with the plan of action. During the month of December, you can take advantage of holiday fun, events, traditions, family stuff, etc. You can even invite her along when you go out. If she doesn't want to, that's okay and don't show disappointment. I think as long as she doesn't feel pressured sexually, she'll be good with this change in you. During this month and up till New Years Eve, I want you to incorporate more physical touches, but they have to be non-sexual touches.
When the two of you are out in public, you can take her by the hand if you are trying to get through a crowd......but don't hold hands with her when you are just walking side by side, or sitting together, etc. Know the difference? When you go out into a restaurant to be seated, for example, put your hand on the small of her back to show you are guiding her (in a protective sort of way) to your seats. You can do this whenever the two of you start through doors, enter or exit an elevator, etc. You can touch her elbow, her shoulder, back, arms, and (sometimes) her waist ...….in non-sexual, non-creepy ways. Don't leave your hand there long, just make it a causal touch, like if you pass her in the hallway, or are standing by her, or whatever. I'm sure you remember a time when it felt natural. You want to get back to that point, without drawing attention to it, and without her feeling uncomfortable. This is nothing you need to discuss with her. If you do it correctly, and she still objects...….then let us know.
You can make plans together, talk about what to get everyone for Christmas, etc. Show her that you are interested, rather than just leaving it up to whatever she decides to pick out. Know what I mean? It's just an opportunity to show off your best side. Show her those improvements you've been making. Like I keep cautioning you, just don't smother her with your presence or pour too much on too suddenly. You want to allow it to build upward.
If she seems to respond positively, and is acting happier in the days leading up to Christmas, then I think you should buy her a gift. Right now, and until you can determine more as it gets closer to Christmas, I don't think you need to go overboard on a expensive gift, but get something that shows you've put some thought into it, and something she'd like.
I can write more later, but for now.....how do you feel about my suggestions? If this is off track, I think you'll know soon enough. Resist the urge to explain to her why you seem different or have changed. Some H's just can't contain themselves! Do not initiate talk about the relationship, the status of M, or your future together. If she initiates a positive discussion, then you can join into the conversation......as long as you don't appear to be explaining to her what you've been trying to accomplish, etc. I hope you know what I mean. I see this a lot in nice guy H's.
Remember, stay balanced about what I am suggesting. If I have totally blown your mind, tell me, and I'll step back.
No, this is perfect. I can do these things and have been to an extent. Some of this was suggested here by Steve. Especially as far as the non-sexual physical touches. Holidays are emotionally charged and the perfect opportunity to execute these behaviors. I have a plan and will work it until Jan. unless things change. I'm encouraged, excited and feel understood. Thank you so much, Sandi!
Last edited by RR17; 12/06/1801:59 PM.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Sandi, what you have described is exactly what has gone on. Little to no kisses. If I tried deep tongue kisses she pulled back. So you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. I thought it was just getting older and perhaps cigars. I took special measures to make sure it wasn't cigars. She said she couldn't smell cigars.
As people get older, it definitely takes more effort in keeping a fresh breath. And I'll tell you something I find interesting, it seems to be difficult for some women to tell their man he has bad breath, or whatever it is about his mouth that isn't very sexy at the moment. Going to the dentist regularly, and brushing your teeth (and scraping your tongue) goes without saying. I've heard that having certain stomach issues, gum disease, dry mouth, etc. can give us bad breath. All you can do is try to make sure you've covered all the bases.
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But yes. Sex was something she would dole out like some sort of allowance and I resented it. I was always perplexed because once we got started she always seemed to enjoy the experience. Multi-orgasmic every time. I made sure of it. But there was always a hint of psychological removal. Like she wasn't emotionally involved.
I believe there is a difference in making love and just having sex. For a woman to make love, I think she has to feel emotionally connected/attached to the man. Maybe the man does, too. I can't speak for him. I think men learn early on that they need to "humor" the woman, so to speak. Get her in a good mood, to prepare her for sex. If it's making love.....great, and if it's just sex......great (in the man's opinion?)
Most women know that the man needs sex ever so often, just to be able to live peacefully with him. In other words, even if she isn't interested in it, she'll dole out the sex, "for his sake" or so he will stop pressuring her. Since women do not have to physically perform like is required from the man, she can just lay there and let him do the work, or she can participate if she thinks it will speed things along. (Sorry guys, I know this is harsh.)
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I thought it was a hang-up about sex. I read about and watched many videos about the messages little girls get yadda yadda yadda.
It very well could be a hang-up. If she was fed a lot of negative things about sex when she was growing up, or just negative things in how men look at women and sex......it is very difficult to overcome. My mother would talk to me about how boys don't respect girls who will have sex with them, yada, yada. If the girl gets pregnant, more yada, yada. Girls older than me would talk about how boys would "test" girls to see how far the girl would go, and to see if she was a "good girl" or "bad". I was told that men did not want to marry girls who had slept around. In other words, I was given the old double standard. I don't think it is as prevalent today as it was before the sexual revolution. That's not to say people don't get hang-ups.
When I got married (very young), suddenly I was suppose to erase all those old tapes in my brain and be sexually uninhibited? Actually, I did pretty well, considering. But we got pregnant right off the bat and was living with his mom and that started causing other problems that affected my level of respect for him. After the baby was born, I had postpartum depression, and my sex drive took a dive.
Hormones play a big part in women....and men. One of the best things I did after my MR reconciled, was go to a hormone balancing specialist. The doctor told me that my sex hormones had flatlined. Anyway, if you can bring your W to multiple orgasms, then I doubt her sex hormones are below normal. That doesn't take care of the mental part, however. If she has a fear of intimacy or whatever, she may have to seek sex therapy.
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One day back in the Spring this year she was reluctantly about to participate and I told her that I didn't want her to do it is she didn't want to. I had thought that the sexual attraction stage and the physical stage were just mixed up as I have read, happens in many women. Well, she said, "I don't want to." I said Okay and in an understanding way I accepted it. That was like 6 months ago and I have tried to initiate it 2 or three times since. Things seemed to be progressing and it seemed she was waiting for me. I was wrong.
I remember one time my H said that he had made up his mind that if we ever had sex again, it would be b/c I initiated it. It was always difficult for me to initiate, and part of it goes back to those old tapes being replayed in my head. It felt so weird for me, and I wanted to be romanced and seduced. We might goes for weeks or months waiting on each other, and when there was no sex.......all forms of physical affection would seem to die out, too. Then out of the blue, he would walk up behind me while I had my hands in the dishwater, and he would grab my breasts or put his hand down my pants. I absolutely hated it. I have talked with other women who feel the same way, so it's not just me. I tried to tell him it didn't turn me on, and it was like he didn't hear me. Then I finally told him I hated it, and he got mad and sulked. The thing is that the longer a woman goes without any type of physical affection, and the longer she goes without making love...…..the harder it is for her to respond favorably to a sudden gross sexual contact. It seems aggressive. She needs the H to keep the touches/contact on a more day to day even keel. Do some kind of affectionate touching every day. It doesn't have to be sexual, but no touching whatsoever just leads her to being colder, IMHO. They both build up some resentment. I realize everyone is not the same, but from my experience and the women I have heard talk about these issues, are on the same page with what I'm telling you.
Don't go for a couple of months with out ever touching her at all, and then suddenly catch her with her back turned and start grabbing and squeezing. Does that make sense? If we had just had a night of hot sex, maybe I would not have seen it in quite in the same light. However, I never really understood what kind of response H's expect when the W is up to her elbows in dishwater, or preparing food, or whatever, and he walks up behind her and starts humping or grabbling. Is she suppose to throw her head back, start moaning, fall down on the floor and beg for it, what? Understand my point here. Before this type of action is displayed from the H, there needs to be a more consistent or regular type of physical interaction where he is lovingly touching her. Even then, I don't know if she would welcome this particular act, just saying it isn't my cup of tea. To go for an extended period of time where there has been no flirting, no playing, no non-sexual touching, no affectional touching, and no sexual touching......this type of approach is too aggressive. I'm just using this one as an example.
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One time I took issue with the way she insensitively handled the rejection and after bringing my story here I get reminded that I screwed up and need to detach etc. I wasn't so much that I was attached to the outcome. I had lowered my defenses to be as genuine as possible and she, in a no regard for my feelings way, didn't handle well. Everything thing else in the R at the time said she was concerned with my feelings. I hope I have explained this well enough.
I understand, b/c I was much the same way when I wasn't wanting physical intimacy with my H. Some of it was ignorance on my part, b/c I didn't really grasp how badly it hurt him to be rejected sexually. And, part of it was my own emotional needs were not being met by my H. I needed emotional intimacy, in order to desire physical intimacy. It's a long story, but my H never understood what I meant by emotional intimacy. I needed that pillow talk time when a couple goes to bed. I needed him to give me words of affirmation. I needed the playful teasing and kisses. I needed to feel emotionally connected to him. When I felt emotionally connected, the desire to be physically intimate just naturally came. He would not go to bed when I went. He wanted to sit up late watching tv. Usually, he fell asleep on the couch. If he went to bed when I did......I knew why he was showing up. He went right into initiating sex. He wasn't rushing it, but I knew why he had come to bed with me. It made me feel like I was just being used to satisfy his needs, and then he would get back up and watch more tv. So, I had no pre or post sex emotional connecting. I also got tired of being blamed for the lack of sex, although it was partly true. I felt that my H saw having more sex as fixing our M problems. That was his answer whenever I tried to approach him about different issues. So, I became very resentful. It becomes like a cold war.
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I can do these things and have been to an extent.
Yeah......I figured you were.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
As people get older, it definitely takes more effort in keeping a fresh breath. And I'll tell you something I find interesting, it seems to be difficult for some women to tell their man he has bad breath, or whatever it is about his mouth that isn't very sexy at the moment. Going to the dentist regularly, and brushing your teeth (and scraping your tongue) goes without saying. I've heard that having certain stomach issues, gum disease, dry mouth, etc. can give us bad breath. All you can do is try to make sure you've covered all the bases.
All these measures have been taken, along with special expensive mouthwash. BTW, my W had no problem eventually telling me I stunk. She didn't use much tact but as you describe she probably struggled with speaking up. This was years ago. I have asked if it is still an issue and she says no. I have granted her permission to tell me if I stink. I think the current issue was as you described and more about a lack of emotional connection. Like I said you hit the nail on the head.
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I believe there is a difference in making love and just having sex. For a woman to make love, I think she has to feel emotionally connected/attached to the man. Maybe the man does, too. I can't speak for him. I think men learn early on that they need to "humor" the woman, so to speak. Get her in a good mood, to prepare her for sex. If it's making love.....great, and if it's just sex......great (in the man's opinion?) grin
For the record. I believe that a woman has to feel loved, in order to make love. A man needs to have sex in order to feel loved. Even in a somewhat healthy relationship, we men use sex to temp-take. This recent prohibition has helped me to see love in other ways. And I guess that's a good thing.
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Hormones play a big part in women....and men. One of the best things I did after my MR reconciled, was go to a hormone balancing specialist. The doctor told me that my sex hormones had flatlined. shocked Anyway, if you can bring your W to multiple orgasms, then I doubt her sex hormones are below normal. That doesn't take care of the mental part, however.
Before BD#1 W had expressed a lack of happiness. After some reading, I suggested she get her thyroid checked. It was fine. I now see that this was a sign and lead up to EA and BD. She has since found happiness in all the other things I have previously described. More friends, success at work, Ds and my removal of all pressure in the MR.
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I remember one time my H said that he had made up his mind that if we ever had sex again, it would be b/c I initiated it. It was always difficult for me to initiate, and part of it goes back to those old tapes being replayed in my head. It felt so weird for me, and I wanted to be romanced and seduced. We might goes for weeks or months waiting on each other, and when there was no sex.......all forms of physical affection would seem to die out, too. Then out of the blue, he would walk up behind me while I had my hands in the dishwater, and he would grab my breasts or put his hand down my pants. I absolutely hated it. I have talked with other women who feel the same way, so it's not just me. I tried to tell him it didn't turn me on, and it was like he didn't hear me. Then I finally told him I hated it, and he got mad and sulked.
This reads like a page from my own life. As men, we get these messages from movies about spontaneity that don't often apply in real life. I remember a time when we were having a lot of sex (honeymoon phase) and I forcefully took her up against the door etc etc. And she later commented that she liked it a lot. Seduction gets complicated in a long-term MR. I plan to add some kind of affectionate non-sexual touching every day. I had tried to do this several weeks ago and there were hugs. At one point she seemed put off. I asked her if the hugs bothered her. She said "a little" they made her uncomfortable. I stopped. Yesterday while discussing some challenges from her work, W started to get a little emotional. I stepped up and hugged her. Her response was receptive. She has turned into a complicated creature.
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I understand, b/c I was much the same way when I wasn't wanting physical intimacy with my H. Some of it was ignorance on my part, b/c I didn't really grasp how badly it hurt him to be rejected sexually. And, part of it was my own emotional needs were not being met by my H. I needed emotional intimacy, in order to desire physical intimacy.
This reminds me of an instance recently were I had said that not having sex for over 5 months was the longest I had gone since, well like high school. W looked seriously at me and said "Me too! Well not since HS but for a very long time." She said this like it was something that was happening to her, not because of her choice. I didn't point it out that she was the cause. But it was like she was saying that we were in the same tough spot. Anyway, I thought this was strange.
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... I felt that my H saw having more sex as fixing our M problems. That was his answer whenever I tried to approach him about different issues. So, I became very resentful. It becomes like a cold war.
I believe these have been her thoughts. That if we do it, it will mean that things are all good.
I will proceed as discussed here. Continue with the usual DB practices and intentional, none sexual touches, try to flirt and be funny.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
For the record. I believe that a woman has to feel loved, in order to make love.
I wrote more about this subject on Steve's thread today.
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Even in a somewhat healthy relationship, we men use sex to temp-take.
It makes sense, but it's not an accurate measuring technique.
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After some reading, I suggested she get her thyroid checked. It was fine. I now see that this was a sign and lead up to EA and BD
That may be the case sometimes. I feel there is a difference in not being happy in general and not being happy with the MR. Women are not always clear when stating their feelings. But anyway......when I came here as a WW, one of the first things I was told (b/c I was blaming my H for all my unhappiness) is that every individual is responsible for their own happiness. That was a tough pill to swallow. (BTW, this is an example of one of those things I caution you H's not to repeat to their W, thinking if it was said on the board it will be good to say to their W. Just throwing this tip in, free of charge.)
People who experience depression for the first time, often look for what's making them feel so unhappy. Sometimes it is due to chemical imbalance or whatever. Anyway, I'm really glad to hear she is doing better.
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This reads like a page from my own life. As men, we get these messages from movies about spontaneity that don't often apply in real life. I remember a time when we were having a lot of sex (honeymoon phase) and I forcefully took her up against the door etc etc. And she later commented that she liked it a lot. Seduction gets complicated in a long-term MR.
Unfortunately, a lot of men get the wrong idea from movies, (and from porn). My H did, too. He compared me to the hotties in the movies, and thought something was wrong with me when I didn't respond like those actresses.
Not sure what you mean by seduction gets complicated. Women like for the man to be dominate in the bedroom. This is probably why your W liked you holding her against the door. Plus, it was probably something different.
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I plan to add some kind of affectionate non-sexual touching every day. I had tried to do this several weeks ago and there were hugs. At one point she seemed put off. I asked her if the hugs bothered her. She said "a little" they made her uncomfortable.
She must really be on guard about any sign of sexual moves from you. My suggestion is that if you start to hug her, do a side to side hug, instead of front to front. That makes it a non-sexual touch when doing it side to side.
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I stepped up and hugged her. Her response was receptive. She has turned into a complicated creature.
All women are complicated to men. I suggest you not look for excuses to hug her, until she gets more comfortable with your other non-sexual touches. I also suggest you not quiz her about having whether or not she has a problem with you touching her in some manner. I'd try to explain, but it's complicated. Just judge by her body language, and if she tenses or pulls away.....then don't try again for a while. I know I continue to tell you, but please don't over kill by trying to do too much too soon. You have to ease into this.
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I understand, b/c I was much the same way when I wasn't wanting physical intimacy with my H. Some of it was ignorance on my part, b/c I didn't really grasp how badly it hurt him to be rejected sexually. And, part of it was my own emotional needs were not being met by my H. I needed emotional intimacy, in order to desire physical intimacy.
This reminds me of an instance recently were I had said that not having sex for over 5 months was the longest I had gone since, well like high school. W looked seriously at me and said "Me too! Well not since HS but for a very long time." She said this like it was something that was happening to her, not because of her choice. I didn't point it out that she was the cause. But it was like she was saying that we were in the same tough spot. Anyway, I thought this was strange.
First of all, you didn't have to point out she was the cause. Trust me, the W knows whenever he complains about not getting sex.....he's blaming her. Look, you aren't seeing this from her point of view, and maybe a guy just can't understand it, IDK. You said in order to feel love, you need sex, right? That doesn't mean it applies to her. Just b/c she engages in sex with you doesn't mean she feels loved. It doesn't mean her emotional needs are met. You said women need to feel loved in order to make love (which I don't agree they have to feel love to have sex, but I think I get what you mean). I guess it does seem a little strange to you, since you can bring her to orgasm, b/c you see her getting the same pleasure and satisfaction as you receive from sex. She may receive pleasure, but it doesn't mean a woman feels loved through having sex. She needs to feel loved in some other way.
She doesn't need a man in order to have multiple orgasms. Sorry to be so harsh, and I'm not saying every woman out there agrees with me......but so far, emotional needs can't be fulfilled with a vibrator. Some women's love language is physical touch. (I think every man's LL is physical touch.) But anyway, if her LL is physical touch, then she would probably need that body contact and sex. Since she's not wanting to engage in physical intimacy, I'm guessing her LL is something else. Have you read the book of love languages?
I think she is trying to tell you that you aren't the only one who has unmet needs in this relationship. It's not near as simple for her, as you want to make it sound, b/c her LL is not sex. It's not all her fault, either. It's not her choice that she isn't getting her emotional needs met. Unfortunately, she does not communicate well, so it's difficult for you to know exactly what she wants. You can learn more about women's emotional needs by reading material written on the subject. You can be proactive by experimenting to see what works. Remember what I said about my H and how I needed him to join me at bedtime, do the pillow talk thing, give me a few words of affirmation, etc.? I didn't think it was too much to ask, but he wouldn't do it, and therefore I wasn't meeting his needs either...….so the relationship suffered. I suggest you reframe from making statements about how long it's been since having sex. She knows exactly what you are doing with that comment.
I don't want to imply that it's okay to remain in a SSM indefinitely. I do think some women decide they don't intend to have any more sex with their H, and that's that as far as she's concerned. That's wrong, and that's not what I am seeing here. I think she's a woman who hopes that someday things will change for the better. Maybe we can figure out more about it as we go.
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... I felt that my H saw having more sex as fixing our M problems. That was his answer whenever I tried to approach him about different issues. So, I became very resentful. It becomes like a cold war.
I believe these have been her thoughts. That if we do it, it will mean that things are all good.
When I decided to end my A and stay in my M, I held back on encouraging my H, b/c he would think everything was okay......and it wasn't. It was not a quick or easy fix. From what I've heard other women say, their H's judge the relationship by their sex life. If he's happy with their sex life, then he thinks she should be, too, He wonders what is her problem! I think it's a matter of her not feeling like she's been heard emotionally. I talked to my H until I was talked out, trying to explain to him what I needed. He still did not get it. I didn't know what else to do. I tried using pictures and examples......he still thought if we just had more sex our MR would be fine. So, I gave up. I really gave up. I was done. I was still physically here, but I was emotionally done. I felt as if I was dead inside. That's when I became vulnerable to some sweet talking man and had an A, b/c he made me feel special and alive. (I had had imaginary affairs for years, letting romance novels and movies feed my desires.) See, women can be fooled by fiction, too. Anyway, it was very difficult for me to find that desire and emotional energy to invest into my "dead" M.
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I will proceed as discussed here. Continue with the usual DB practices and intentional, none sexual touches, try to flirt and be funny.
Fun.....not funny. Be a fun person she enjoys being with. She may not find you so "funny". Know the difference?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Just wanted to say thank you Sandi. Lots of helpful advice for us guys you have just provided! I so wish my W had been willing to go to the lengths you went to with your H to try and make him understand the emotional needs you had. I got the gave up and done from her very clearly, but feel like if she really tried to help me understand I would have been able to get it. The pillow talk and words of affirmation such easy things a man could provide if he truly realized how important they were. Sad we guys struggle so badly to get out of our own opinionated minds on how we think you ladies should feel, instead of really allowing ourselves to open our narrow minds to the idea that you ladies may see things completely differently. Again very helpful words! Thank you!
Last night W and I went to grab a burger at the local mall. (man, Brick & Morter retail is in the crapper, for so close to Christmas) She suggested it and D16 wasn't interested. It was nice. I got a bit miffed when she took a call as soon as we sat down from a co-worker about the company's impending move. I wanted to throw some attitude but did not. This is progress for me. It's the little victories. Anyway, we walked around the mall and enjoyed each other's company. W seems like Quality Time is her Love Language. I have read the book, it was after BD#1 and she said she did too. When she took the quiz she couldn't answer the questions. I helped her. It was kind of a mess because I brought up that she couldn't answer the questions in MC. That was 5 years ago. After the mall, we came home and watched "I Tonya". Again quality time. 10 pm rolls around and I go up to the MBR after saying goodnight. I looked for the appropriate time for touch but never saw the opportunity. Less is better, right?
I also want to point out, for the benefit of all here, that although most of us don't GAL enough and Detach, more of the same isn't always the answer. Also, we all don't have NGS. We are very similar, but not exactly. The same remedies don't always apply all of the time. There are stages to this stuff. I really couldn't GAL any more than I have.. I've got so many hobbies and activities outside of my MR. I'm not going to add any more. Detaching doesn't mean that you will never be affected by rejection. It doesn't. If you were single and got shot down by a stranger you can still feel like crap. You're not attached to that stranger. It's part of being human. Detachment is a process and still, you will never be 100% detached unless you get divorced and are with somebody else. Think about it. Even when you are sufficiently Detached for DB purposes you will slip. You will slip because you still have feelings for this person. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here.
I plan to intentionally maintain a healthy level of Detachment in all of my relationships, from here on out. I see the value. I see how not being detached is destructive and really just a control issue. It's bata material you NGS types.
I don't even pretend to be any kind of expert, but I am learning and there are some truths that I believe I have figured out. It is always easier to look at other's sitchs and think, well they just need to... It is difficult to see your own faults and progress.
Thanks again Sandi, and all of you that take the time to read and comment. It is strange for me to feel a bizarre level of emotional intimacy with a bunch of strangers that I will never meet.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Cadet, any chance of reopening the edit button for me?
Anyway, if you can bring your W to multiple orgasms, then I doubt her sex hormones are below normal. That doesn't take care of the mental part, however. If she has a fear of intimacy or whatever, she may have to seek sex therapy. 
He went right into initiating sex. He wasn't rushing it, but I knew why he had come to bed with me. It made me feel like I was just being used to satisfy his needs, and then he would get back up and watch more tv. So, I had no pre or post sex emotional connecting. I also got tired of being blamed for the lack of sex, although it was partly true. I felt that my H saw having more sex as fixing our M problems. That was his answer whenever I tried to approach him about different issues. So, I became very resentful. It becomes like a cold war. 
She didn't use much tact but as you describe she probably struggled with speaking up. This was years ago. I have asked if it is still an issue and she says no. I have granted her permission to tell me if I stink. I think the current issue was as you described and more about a lack of emotional connection. Like I said you hit the nail on the head.