Question--Flirting with other women in front of W?
Not necessarily looking to do it, but just curious. Especially in light of ILYBINILWY.
Only if you want to send the message that it's okay for her to do the same...
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Question--Flirting with other women in front of W?
Not necessarily looking to do it, but just curious. Especially in light of ILYBINILWY.
Only if you want to send the message that it's okay for her to do the same...
BAM! This.
Your detachment and GAL will cause mystery and potentially the "jealous" feelings you are striving for. No need to be blatant, disrespectful and mean. In DBing never do anything that you would get upset with her about. (Note, I didn't say things you wouldn't like. But things that would actually upset you.) Polite. Upbeat. Present. Active listening. But overt like flirting with other women in front of her? As RR said, how would you like her to flirt with guys in front of you?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Glad I asked, because like I said the thought has occurred to me (but better to ask in the forums than potentially try it in real life).
I’d be bent out of shape if she were to flirt with other men in front of me, so ‘do unto others.’
I was mad enough when a couple of years ago W and I were out with some of her coworkers / work friends, and one of them says “Oh you must be so-and-so,” and I was called by a name of a guy that I suspected her of being too friendly with / potential EA. I was a very unhappy camper with her on the ride home, and told her as much.
While trying to eliminate NGS tendencies within, I'm 'asking for what I want' by being more intentional with my word choice
Trying to mix in as many 'I want you to / I need you to / I would like you to' instead of framing it as a question 'Can you / could you' and having it implied that that is what I want
Earlier tonight, for trip to OS's Christmas Parade:
W: ....or do you need me to map it?
Me: Yes, I would like you to map it please
W: Are you okay?
Me: Yeah, I'm fine
W: Okay....because you sounded a bit persnickety' (one of her favorite words)
At the parade, via text:
W: find a seat yet?
Me: Yes
W: Going to tell me where or do we need to just keep an eye out?
As the W of an extreme Mister Nice Guy, I can tell you first hand how the behaviors have hurt our M and killed my attraction to him at times. I don't agree with the above statement that most men start off as confident masculine males. There can be some deeply rooted issues form childhood, that perhaps were buried or overlooked because there can also be many postive traits that come with being a MNG. (My H is just a super nice guy and I do love his kindness and generosity.) There has also been a culture of emasculating boys that somewhere in the last century became socially acceptable. I find that tragic.
When I met my H, I thought he was perfect, and perhaps too nice, accommodating and generous. That should have been a red flag. In the case of my H, he has 3 factors IMO that led to his NGS. 1. Genetics, as he has always been introverted and patient by nature. Growing up, he did not rebel against what he may not have agreed with. 2. He was raised to believe that (normal) "masculine" characteristics and interests were harmful to women or disrespectful, and 3. He had an extremely strict, and borderline emotionally abusive, fundamental Catholic mother. I tend to think the more risk factors a man has, the harder it is to reform. I think my H will only ever be a work in progress, as it is so much who he is.
Fortunately, he ended his A, and was willing to look at his wrongdoings. He read the NMMNG book and was forced to see that his niceness and constantly accommodating others, translated into a lack of boundaries and also a growing silent resentment in his close relationships. When he came back to the M, we both new we needed to change. That can be much easier said than done.
The reason this post stood out today is because we just got into an argument. I just dont see him enforcing rules with the kids or disciplining them. So they lose respect for him, I come down harder on them, and then all of our Rs are negatively affected. Its frustrating. While he is more self aware and he is willimg to make changes, the NG cr-p still has a way of creeping in. I suppose it always will. It is harder enough raising kids, and teenagers, but when I have to parent for both of us, my anger can really boil over! My husband can listen and validate all day. But when it comes to standing his ground and putting the hammer down on these kids, boy doesn't that seem impossible at times. I just flat out tell him, you are killing my attraction for you. Harsh? Yes. The truth? Sadly, yes.
I wanted to put my amen to Blue's post. I felt the same way about my H.
I had to always be the disciplinarian with the kids, and I resented it very much.
As for the subject of females being attracted to "bad boys", I don't believe it is their "badness". I don't think any woman in her right mind would want a bad man to be her H and the father of her children. Don't thing he can't be a good and honorable man. I think this nickname came a long time ago from the movies. Anyway, we'll go with it as a point of reference...…...but please stay balanced and don't jump to the opposite polar of what I'm saying.
This man is often referred to as a "man's man". The attributes that attract the female can be detected in his persona. It shows confidence, strength, independence, assertiveness, and authority when needed. Even other men sense that this guy is not someone who will bullied, made the butt of a joke, ridiculed, and other forms of disrespect. He doesn't just go along with whatever the crowd wants, and that's why he is often portrayed in movies as a rebel. He is not a "yes man" who jumps through hoops trying to get someone's approval. He knows his own mind and lives by a code of honor. He is a take-charge kind of guy when action is needed. He doesn't get pi$$y, whine, fuss, tattle, or sulk like a girl. He isn't pushed around......especially by some b'tchy female, and if that means he has to get a little rude to shut her up, then he's not afraid to do so. He knows how to use his voice and his body language, to put a horsey female in her place (which simply means he doesn't cow down and is not about to let her push him around, belittle him, or manipulate him.) In the bedroom, he is sexually dominant, and women find this very attractive.
I think all the above applies to how this type of man should interact with his W. (Just to clarify, he does not get violent or abusive to his W.) This type of man knows there is a time & place to show tenderness, sympathy, understanding, etc. He also knows when he needs to apply tough love in his MR, and with his children. Although he and his W are a team, there is never a doubt that he is the final authority. He is the leader, protector and provider of his family.
He will show his W respect and lovingness,...….as long as she is mindful to show respect to him. However, if she displays any form of disrespect, manipulation, b.s., entitlement, tantrums, or actions we often see reported on the forum......he immediately deals with her bad behavior! He doesn't let her get away with treating him badly, and demonstrating those type of behaviors. He is the head of the family, and it's up to him to keep order in the MR and his family.
Back in the '70s & '80's, television was packed with detective and western series. These shows always portrayed the male star as having these "bad boy" traits. Then those shows began disappearing and being replaced with stupid sitcoms. My H pointed out how the husband/father was portrayed as an idiot in these shows. I started to observe closer, and he was absolutely right! They stopped having shows with strong, decisive, leading men who were respected by their families. They showed weaklings that amazingly were married to very smart, very beautiful women who ran the M and family, while everyone laughed at the stupid man. That became the role an entire generation grew up watching. Then more disaster came in the form of reality shows. Although it's all in the name of entertainment, it affects young developing minds.
I believe men with NGS can certainly make changes for the better. However, I don't think they will ever be a natural "bad boy". I think that is something a man either has or doesn't have. I have observed how men with NGS on the board, have difficulty trying to show a stronger/tougher side b/c it doesn't feel natural to them. Somehow they see it as acting mad or cold. He equates detaching in the same manner. He has trouble balancing some of the things I've just talked about....b/c it feels unnatural.
I saw where someone was talking about flirting with women, and I think they were linking this with "bad boy" behavior. I don't see the connection. If the man is in a MR, I strongly suggest he doesn't intentionally flirt with other women (unless she is his grandma.....and then it's cute). Now let me clarify something. You might have a friendly personality and charisma that people really like. You may be able to make people laugh, and be very likeable. I don't see this as flirting…...but it could be misunderstood, especially if it is one on one. Also, it might lead to sexual flirting. Make sense? If your W saw you intentionally flirting with someone, it would not make her jealous. It would make her angry at you! If she saw another woman flirting with you.....then she would probably be jealous. Know the difference? You never know how a W may react.
A little "harmless" flirting is usually good for the ego, but I don't recommend you do it to make your W jealous. JMHO.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
You start by not playing the victim. You may be a victim but never ever play to it. I will say that when I discovered my W's EA and BD#1 I was playing the beta male, I was playing a victim. It was not my natural state. Counseling said I needed to study Vulnerability. Although I see value in vulnerability the timing was all wrong. Much of counseling was wrong until I realized that I need to embrace my natural state otherwise I was bond to ride my MR into the abyss.
Just getting my mojo back made me feel better about myself and my sitch. GAL and Detachment was the key. Regaining the respect of my W made me realize what I had allowed to get off track. Get your act together guys and SHOW not tell your Ws what they risk losing. You will feel 100% better. She will notice.
The lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Although it's all in the name of entertainment, it affects young developing minds.