burned right through another thread

[TJT]

I learn from my mistakes so I have LOTS of advice to give.

And

it's crushing to think that our own inadequacies/behaviors helped pushed our W's to make the decision to do what they've done and are doing, but ultimately they made the decision to act inappropriately in the context of a MR

This is the frustration I have. We ALL make mistakes and have inadequacies. Our spouses made mistakes and had inadequacies that WE accepted or at least were willing to work through. It's absolutely crushing when someone can't - or chooses not - to live up to that vow.

I have SO many things that I remind myself I saw past with my H, and the frustrating part is that those things were a significant part of our relationship where not only did they happen, we had talked about the fact that they happened many times!! There are things he knew I struggled with early on where I continued to stick with him anyway until I let my guard down and built a loving relationship (with this man who I promised myself I would NOT date when I met him because of his son and ex and blah blah). Through our challenges he was literally almost to the point of begging sometimes. Then later in the relationship we would talk almost comically about the rough start to our relationship and he would write me letters about being so happy I gave him a chance, etc.

So where is our chance then? WHERE?!

One specific example and the kicker in how his A has played out in my sitch was that one of those things we would talk comically about was the time he embarrassed himself by making me a bath with flowers and candles and champagne and slow jams and how I was totally not ready for something like that, and how awkward it was at the time. I remember having a "talk" with him about how I needed him to slow down. I distinctly remember him crying to me that day afraid he was Fing stuff up.

Now he invited some chick into our brand new house together and did the same setup for her while I was on a business trip.

I don't mean to take over your thread with my story but it's all just to say none of this is "fair". I want to echo that you shouldn't beat yourself up about it, but yet also acknowledge that I have no idea how to make it feel any better because I think it's just so stupid for all of us to be going through it.

The only thing I can say is that I do feel good about myself as a person when I think about my reaction to his whole setup when we first started dating and wanting to take it slow, vs. his Hussie's reaction which clearly was carefree and I'm gonna ho-out in some other woman's house. Doesn't make me feel any better about why my husband did it though...re-enacting what I considered to be such a pinnacle event in our relationship. It's messed up on a level I can't even put into words or feel like I can accurately even convey to others.

I am very happy that you seem to be getting more at peace with it and focusing on how you feel and not her, like Yail said. I am interested to hear how D goes and also agree it's probably a huge factor in really moving on. I was just thinking the same thing this morning about my sitch but I've still been totally NC with my H and I think that's one reason I'm not ready to pull the trigger myself. Maybe it would be easier if we continued to have interactions that continued to wear me down...but for lack of any interaction with him, I'm still in limboland.

Will keep checking up to see how it's going for you. One question I did have is whether you think you guys could agree to how you split things in the D yourself? Is there a particular point of contention (maybe the house issue?) where you haven't been able to settle so that's why you're getting Ls involved? I just hate to see a crappy situation be made even crappier by getting drained by Ls.

[MoveFrwd]

Called L to schedule a meeting on Tuesday morning. I will likely file for D. I think I need some kind of legal protection.

I think this is a good step to go and understand your options. I would NOT file for divorce on Tuesday. I would collect all of the information that lawyer has for you and see what kind of options you might have. For example, can you financially separate even if nobody files - and what protection would that grant you. I would be sure to note that your lawyer is NOT your therapist. Your lawyer has a financial stake in you getting a divorce and will not give you advice on whether or not to file (or if they do, it will be to file so they get that check).

If I have any other options at this point, I'm open to suggestions. .

My opinion? Your better option than filing for divorce is to take this opportunity to look inward and work on your own personal growth. To take your goals to heart as to what you want from your life and who you are. Even if you are divorced, you are still going to go through the same things with respect to songs....or memories...or whatever. Sure, your W may have fewer reasons to contact you, but if seeing a movie or piece of art or hearing a song sends you into the same spin, then what has really changed? If you are legally divorced, will that help you to stop looking over shoulder in what you do?

My point is really that you shouldnt expect filing for divorce to solve your problems. I said to you a few pages back that it may be good for you to have that control over yourself and your future. And maybe it will. But at the same time, remember that it isnt a magic bullet that will solve all of your issues. It is what it is. A legal document separating the two of you.

[Adam04]

Hey burned how are you? Read this thread and all the wonderful advice ppl are giving you. Take a break from thoughts of our W. How is that GAL goIng? I like your honesty about GAL. I haven't had much success except I did go out to my friends yesterday and it was nice. I noticed how many times I skirted around the subject of W so there's that. With new people , it'd be less stressful since they won't know the sitch.

Interested about that co dep group, how's that going?

[burned]

Hi all. Lots to discuss so I want to post an update. Amoafwl, I appreciate the comments; I think my responses are sprinkled throughout the rest of this post, but let me know what you think. JB, TJT, Adam, I'll respond to y'all separately because I'm trying to stay focused on brass tacks, so to speak. Yes, the following post is "concise" for me. No apologies.

I had a relaxing weekend. I did a reasonable amount of GAL. Wrapped presents and I managed to not cry thinking about kids and happiness and writing "Uncle Burned" on all the tags, instead of "Uncle Burned and Auntie W."

The thought of doing what's right FOR ME by filing for D gave me a sort of calm feeling. I don't like it, but I like the idea of control, closure, and freedom. I know it's not DB and I guess it was kind of predictable, given how I didn't abide by the principles wholeheartedly. Maybe it was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I mean, nothing is done yet. Of course that "high" feeling didn't last much longer than 48 hours. Now I'm back to being conflicted about it. Is it the right thing to do? More importantly, HOW? Do I just do it, without warning, and let W find out when she gets served? Do I respond to her financial nonsense texts, which triggered this? I don't want to be condescending. What I'd like to say is, "W, things are getting complicated and I'm not comfortable without legal guidance."

Part of my goal is to just get the financial stuff DONE and out of the way. I am not detached enough to discuss it calmly with her, especially given her anxiety about it as well as her general lack of financial know-how. Maybe then we'll both be free to interact as humans. She won't fear for her livelihood and think of me as a control freak. I won't fear her manipulation attempts. We can both back off. Or maybe not.

I'm still dealing with some resentment about how this all played out. I think in a sense it was always about money. If she had her own income and had the choice to just walk away, I think she would have walked a long time ago rather than having the A. I feel used, manipulated.

All I can do now is GTFO. This isn't healthy for me. I have nothing to gain by dragging it out. What I will tell W is that with legal guidance we can get this done quickly, efficiently, fairly, so that we can move on. Of course I won't tell her the following things:

1. still open to R
2. still willing to drop the D the minute she wants to
3. still love her, despite everything.

I spent the weekend thinking about all of this, not in a. frantic way but just with a feeling of "well, that's life." I know there are people who say D is not the end. That's reassuring. My dad keeps saying that initiating it isn't the end, and both of us have the option to cancel at any time. People get remarried. AS says he has friends who didn't DB and still got remarried. Life goes on, one way or the other. There's even that 1% chance that this will be an eye-opener for her but that is NOT why I'm doing it and I have no expectations in that regard.

But then I also think about what other people here have said, that initiating D is the wrong way to go, that when the WW starts posturing about D-related details it means she's having doubts, that I should be more patient. That she should be the one doing all of the D work. So then I start having doubts of my own.

It's entirely possible that the L will recommend that we just work it out between us and have her (the L) as a guide only. I want things to be amicable. In that case I may not even tell W about it, because I don't want her to overreact. It's FOR ME. Once I feel safe about what I should and shouldn't do, in very specific terms, with L on retainer so I can always call and ask for advice, I think it will be a bit easier to interact with W about her preparations for D. But at the moment W acts like it's just a question of filling out a form and moving money into different accounts. She has NO idea. I'm just not comfortable conducting a financial transaction of this magnitude without legal oversight. I am protecting myself.

What will happen? How will she react? How will I respond? I have no idea. It's all just in the air right now. I do feel more detached. I don't long for her the way I did before. I regret that this is happening and I dread the mess that it created. I'd like to outsource as much of the dirty work as possible. Proof that I'm not Burned 2.0 yet, still conflict-avoidant and averse to hard work. That's what got me here. So be it, I guess. There's no time left to change. W wants out and she needs the money. I gain nothing by holding her hostage.

Any thoughts? I hope it's not wrong to ask for some moral support here even though I didn't really do things the "right" way. I guess in my defense I'd say that it is kind of right, in the sense that I'm learning to act in my own best interest, without putting too much emphasis on what W is thinking, with the intent of improving my life FOR ME, and in a way that maybe, MAYBE, sends the message that I am letting go and that it's safe for her to live her life without interference from me.

As usual, a short post became a long one. That's what I have for now. Thanks for reading and thanks for any feedback or 2x4s.

Just thought of what I think is really the ultimate issue here: W says she wants D, not separation. I don't want to file. She used the word "file" for the first time over the weekend, which made me nervous. Whenever I suggest "separation" she says, "No, I want D!" I'm hoping the L can help me navigate all of the issues so that we can do most of the work BEFORE D. Then we can "fill out the form and file" as W said on Saturday. But maybe there's a DB way to kind of do the separation work "on the way to D" and then let it all hang?

[Yail]

What I'd like to say is, "W, things are getting complicated and I'm not comfortable without legal guidance."

Personally, I like this. It is honest. The word "guidance" is a good one - keep that word. It shows her you will listen to legal advice but the decisions you make are ultimately yours. You're making informed decisions.

What I will tell W is that with legal guidance we can get this done quickly, efficiently, fairly, so that we can move on.

I also think expressing that your intent is to work quickly, efficiently and fairly is a good one. No emotion in it, but still clear communication. Is it DB? I don't know, some might say no. But you know what, I personally think that's okay. I think it's okay to be honest sometimes, and since this is not about your feelings but is about logistics it may be helpful for her to hear.

But then I also think about what other people here have said,

You've been here a long time and have listened carefully to everyone's advice. I don't think it's wrong for you to make a decision that feels best for you. DB is just one way to handle things. I'll probably get flak for saying that. But if you don't strictly DB every step of the way the world will not stop. As long as you feel good about your choices that's what is important.

I'd like to outsource as much of the dirty work as possible. Proof that I'm not Burned 2.0 yet, still conflict-avoidant and averse to hard work.

I don't think you're outsourcing. You're reaching out to a resource that has more experience in this field than you do. And sure, it will protect your emotions by having an expert handle the details. I honestly don't see this as conflict-avoidant. You'll still have decisions and communications to make - they'll just be via a professional. This is hard work and you're doing it. You're in it.

Wishing you good luck as you make decisions along the way.

[burned]

Please allow me to indulge in this brief rant.

It has been 8 months since BD. 4 months since I started posting here. I am still not detached. WHY NOT? It shouldn't be this difficult. Something isn't right. I have to second-guess every single one of my decisions and it's sucking the life out of me. How did this happen? I NEVER USED TO BE LIKE THIS.

I went almost entirely dark so that I could start healing. Then, once a week, almost like clockwork, she sends one or two potshot texts about finances or whatever crap is bothering her at the moment. Acting all tough like she knows exactly what she's doing when she and I both know perfectly well that she's a fish out of water.

I am trying to let her go and she is not letting me! Or am I completely losing my mind? She's pushing me away but pulling me back in at the same time, and then acting like that's not what she's doing, and making me feel crazy for thinking that's what she's doing. "I want to leave but you're not letting me!" That's what SHE thinks, but now she has me thinking it's what I think. COMPLETELY MESSED UP.

It feels like she's dragging me into her bottomless pit of unhappiness and no matter what I do the gravitational pull gets stronger. If she were being overtly angry I could deal with it. But this is a gigantic passive-aggressive hostile mind-screw. If I knew that this was part of the game, I could hold out a bit longer. Is this what happens when she feels she's losing control? Losing control of what? She doesn't want me, why does she want to control me? Will this end once I give her what she want?

Am I doing this to myself or is there really something messed up going on here? I need an outside perspective.

[DejaVu6]

Burn... you are grieving and you are in the anger stage. Everyone here knows how difficult this stage is...many of us are still in it or at least, in and out of it. I think I fall into the latter group. This is not fair. None of asked for this and yet we are here. It is a powerless, anxious, maddening place to be. There is no way around it... we have to go through it. I firmly believe that our WAS’s also have to go through this. Just not at the same time. I don’t think your WAW is playing a game. I don’t think she is that organized. She is desperate to go down this path. It will not be all sunshine and roses, of that I am sure. You have to save yourself and find a way to take the focus off of what she is doing (you’re probably wrong 80% of the time anyway) and put it back onto you.

You have to let her go - for both of your sakes. She is not not letting you. The goal is for her to not have that power. It is you who is not letting you. GAL and work on you. If you need to get an IC, get one. If you have one and you are not working on this stuff, get a different one. I am so so sorry this is happening to you. I am sorry it is happening to me too. But we both have to accept it and move forward in whatever way we can. I am working on forgiveness currently. I could take my anger and turn it into hate but honestly, hating someone takes as much mental space as loving someone. It is just two sides of the same coin. Detachment...with forgiveness and love... is the only way past this. Don’t be afraid Burn. Dropping the rope benefits you no matter what you WAW does. Let her go. (((Burn)))

[burned]

Thanks DV. I guess the frustration comes from a) thinking I was past the anger phase months ago and finally getting into the acceptance phase, and b) the feeling that I CAN'T drop the rope until she has gotten everything she wants and I'm left sitting here wondering what the hell happened.

She is desperate to go down this path even thought we BOTH know it's not the right path and we BOTH regret it and we BOTH will probably miss each other at some point. THEN WHY ARE WE GOING DOWN THIS PATH????? Why does she have to go through this? I never had kids but I feel like this is what it would be like to have a 10-year-old who insists they can fly, and I have to let them jump off of the roof so that they can learn that they can't fly. In the end I'm the one planning the funeral.

[Ready2Change]

She is living in her own dream world. She believe you are the source of her unhappiness. When she feels unhappy she has to "Justify" that it is you. Lets poke burned and she is he does something that will justify my unhappiness.

[Vapo]

Why on earth are you so hellbent on mind reading? And an egocentric at that! Not everything revolves around you. And I would be willing to bet that she is not spending all her time plotting how to screw you over.

As for how the stages go. It's not as clear cut as you might imagine, you do not finish one stage and go on to the next. It is very here and there from anger to acceptance and back again. So do not be hard on yourself for not detaching quickly enough, it's just the frustration spilling over your cup...