Surrendering to grace...

[kiro]

at what point does the LBS become the WAS?

At her initiative, W and I spent some time the other day doing R talking. On the one hand, she stated adamantly she has no intention of returning to and working on the M.

Paco,

If you decide to move on in your current situation, you won't be a WAS. She clearly told you that she has no intention to return to the M. She is the WAS. Don't fall into her manipulative tactics. The day you decide to move on and not wait for her anymore, I recommend that you communicate it to her in a respectful way and let her know that you still love her, but that you deserve a W who loves you back. And that since she is not interested in working on the M, then you need to move on with your life.

My definition of a WAS (in the context of this site) is someone who bombs the LBS, who up until this point didn't suspect anything was going on. The WAS has no respect whatsoever to their LBS. They are selfish and blame the LBS for everything. Make sure you don't act that way even if you decide to move on.

On the other hand, zooming out and looking at the past year's narrative arc, I see subtle changes

Like you say, you're the only one who can know the time to move on. You need to figure out what you want from life and what your priorities are. And you need to do this without any feeling of guilt (as long as you act according to your values).

Don't get confused who the WAS and who the LBS is. WAS's are known to be manipulative and deceitful. They will twist reality, they'll rewrite history, they'll blame the LBS unfairly, and most importantly they'll project their own issues to their LBS. They do this because they refuse to take responsibility for their feelings and actions. So they will shift these feelings onto the LBS to avoid facing themselves and feeling guilty.

They'll also do everything they can to push their LBS to leave them because they sometimes don't have the courage to end the M despite all the negative things they say. They want the LBS to take the blame for ending the M. Don't fall for that. You have the right to walk away when you want, but you will do it with dignity knowing that you tried everything you could do and that you are walking away because you know you cannot control her and make her love you. This won't make you a WAS.

It's a good thing that you see some positive changes in her. This is why (we) recommend patience and time. But WAS's are unpredictable. They will send you mixed signals. Don't have high expectations for the short term and don't always believe what they say. You can continue to be patient and DBing or you can decide to end it and move on.

Back to Steve's question: when do I choose to be the WAS?

I read Steve's last posts. I think his sitch is quite different than yours.

Only you can answer that. Some people give themselves a fixed deadline (I sort of did that: for me it was at least 1 year from BD).

And it depends on your priorities in life and your values. Some people don't want a new R. So these people could possibly wait a long time. For others, having a companion is a priority in life. So they'll want to move on quicker.

Some will tolerate having relationships even they are not officially divorced... and so on.

- I still love her...very much. I believe now is a time she needs me more than ever. I accept her desire for space to figure things out.

This is very generous from you, but it goes against the principles of DBing (IMO). Don't assume things about her. If she needs you, she'll reach out and ask you. You need to let her live the consequences of her choices.

- I do NOT want to return to M, version 1. In M, version 2, we need to learn constructive tools to deal with "antagonisms."

Yep, and this needs commitment from both partners. For the time being, she doesn't share that wish to work on a new M2.0. I haven't experienced piecing, but from reading others (like Steve), it doesn't seem easy.

- I will continue to work on the life projects I find meaningful.

Best choice for you.

- I just met a woman from Argentina. She spoke of wanting to travel through Central America with me. I am not attracted to her, but she does represent future possibilities of alternative life partners. Too soon to act on now, but not too soon to be open to these possibilities.

I personally strongly recommend against looking at other women while you are still committed to your W. It's good that you know that other women are interested in you, but don't start fantasizing about other women before making your decision about your M. This desire will just blind you and make you rush a decision you may regret in the future.

[SoTorn]

I agree with not looking for another R. Yes its nice to meet friends. Everyone needs to have a strong social circle. The women that have been contacting me all reached out to me. I set a boundary with all of them which is "I am currently NOT looking for a romantic relationship but I would be happy to be FRIENDS".

All of them have accepted that. I did have a couple of women that reached out to me and despite me setting that boundary they started pursuing me extremely hard. I mean yes its nice to know that I am desirable, but they were pursuing to the point where they seemed needy. It was like they were desperately trying to find a companion or life partner and I was the first stable man they ran into so they started relentless pursuit. I cut them off and blocked them.

I literally had one woman ask me, after I set my boundary, "So are you ready to give your heart to another and find your soulmate?". I said no and she kept pursuing just like that so I cut contact.

I have also been getting in touch with old friends that I lost contact with due to some reason. I have a very good friend that went to the Army for several years. He recently moved back so I am going to start hanging with him.

[paco123]

Thanks, kiro and sotorn.

Of course you are right. Right about patience and time. Right about seeking other relationships.

As much as I find joy in work and friendships, I know I am seeking to fill the void occupied by the one person who knew me and whom I wanted to know most intimately; the person whom I trusted would always be there; the person I still love. For now, I choose to wait...perhaps W may feel the same way about me some day.

And if not, my supportive friends assure me that one such other person may yet appear in the future, despite my harelip, my clubfoot, and my passing resemblance to Quasimodo. I pray to God that person turns out to be W.

[paco123]

Edit: Scratch "void occupied" and insert "emotional space vacated"

[FlySolo]

Happy New Year Paco ... and sorry it has been a while since i last wrote. I hope you are well and that the holidays have been good to you.

I agree with everything Kiro says above. You are not, and will never be the WAS. The marriage is over (for now) so, if you walk away, you are walking away from something that is no longer there.

But I do understand how you feel ... there is a part of me that feels, if I drop the rope and move on, I have failed ... that I DID NOT TRY HARD ENOUGH. I lack the courage of my convictions. But these are foolish thought. When, and if, I drop that rope I know deep down I did everything I could to save our marriage. Some of the things probably did more harm then good, but it was with the best of intentions and by someone who deeply loved (loves) their partner and wanted (wants) desperately to save their marriage.

Personally, I do not think that the decision to move on will be a conscious one. It will just happen - not with an epiphany, but with the gradual finding, and liking of ourselves, without our spouses. Not with hatred, resentment or anger at our WAS, but with an almost unconscious acceptance our MR is over and a realisation that the emptiness we once felt no longer feels like emptiness.

Which nicely brings me to your 'void occupied' / 'emotional space vacated'. Paco, I know you know that this space/void cannot truly be filled by another person. You must fill it. You and you alone must learn how to feel comfortable in it. You must learn to love yourself. Until then, other people are mere distractions. Don't get me wrong, distractions do very well at well at .... distracting, but in the end we must all face the mirror. I read your post, and I sense a deeply intelligent and articulate man who is acutely aware of his W psychological and emotional well being. But other than your grief and your desire to understand your W, I get no sense of who you are. Shine the light on you. Take a long and honest look, not at your W, but at you. Know and take responsibility for your part in the breakdown of your MR. Until then, any relationship you have, whether it be with your W or someone else, will be flawed.

Sorry if that sounded harsh. I don't mean to be harsh. I respect the thoughtful and intelligent way you write, your commitment to your W's healing and your decision to stand by her whilst she fights her demons. I know when you look in the mirror, what you will find is a good man, who, though flawed, love(d), and in his own way, was/is devoted to his wife and was committed to his marriage.

[kiro]

FS, I agree but we shouldn’t dismiss that there are true values in having a loving companion and a stable M. We should use this time to rediscover ourselves but let’s not fool ourselves. Most people are happier and more fulfilled with a loving partner than being alone (human nature). We just have to give up the illusion that no one other our current S can fill this role. And Yes we should be comfortable alone and not put all our eggs in one basket. We should have other interests in life other than spending time with our partner.

[paco123]

FS, no apologies needed; not harsh at all (he said as he pulled the knife from his heart).

Just to assure you, I do have an active, productive life, which I choose not to speak about on this forum.

But I tend to side with Kiro and Nat King Cole:

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn,
is just to love and be loved in return."

Since you sound veddy, veddy British in your posts, FS, I will point to Gabriel Oak, from Hardy's "Far from the Madding Crowd," as one of my favorite English literary characters. In his example, I see a man who could be independently, stoically complete unto himself, while also unapologetically and unconditionally committed to the woman he loved. If my posts focus on the latter attributes, rather than the former, perhaps it is because of the nature of this forum.

[FlySolo]

Not english at all or at least not english enough to be familiar with Far from the Maddening Crowd.

I take your Nat King Cole / Thomas Hardy and raise you Socates "Know thyself"

Paco - I have no doubt you have an active and productive life. That is not the mirror I am talking about. I have an active and productive life but looking in that mirror still hurt like hell because it forced me to see my flaws and account for my actions.

Here goes ... and apologise for hijacking

I think our perspectives are always going to be informed by our experiences. Mine (confusing, frustrating and hellish as it has been) has made me a stronger person for having been forced to know myself. My H sprouted all sorts of accusations at me, cherry picking every bad thing that had happened in our marriage, or turning the good things into negatives. He saw our life together through a lens of utter resentment and raged at me about everything and anything. I tried to counter by cherry picking the good things or raging right back at him. Once he had moved out and I had the space to think, I started to look at myself. Beneath his resentment there were grains of truth. Whenever I am hurting, I become emotionally detached, closed off and use my intelligence and success as a means to "put him in his place". I did all this instead of simply saying "you have hurt me". I stopped appreciating when he did nice things for me because I thought he took me for granted and wanted to hurt him. I isolated myself and focused solely on my career and my children. I indirectly made him feel small because I made more money than he did so he made me feel small by criticising me. I did not show I loved him enough. That mirror can be an ugly thing. But I did it. And in doing so, I began to understand him and then I began to forgive him. He has acted like a [censored] but I could be a [censored].

Kiro - I agree a loving companion is a worthwhile thing. I just do not think, Jerry Maguire be [censored], that another person can complete us. If you are not complete, then you will be incomplete with our without a loving companion.

[kiro]

FS, I went through a similar process too. I just think that our personal growth is one thing and our relationship is another. If people needed to fix all their flaws and become whole before falling in love, it will be the end of marriages as we know it because being flawed is part of our humanity. We should be able to accept that about ourselves and our S. And grow together within the M.

[paco123]

As far as I'm concerned, FS, no such thing as a thread hijack. I am way more comfortable with this thread being a water cooler around which anyone can share their stories. I agree with what you and Kiro posted. Specifically:


1 - Accept accountability. This is the biggest reminder from my own therapy: no matter what baggage I bring, or W brings to our transactions, I ALWAYS have accountability. I can ALWAYS choose to respond with maturity and love. I accept responsibility for not always having done this in the past.

2 - Wholeness unto one's self. No one completes us; if we're not ready to find happiness within, it's tempting to find blame without.

3 - Love with grace. Marriage is about bestowing unconditional love to the undeserving. Forgive, accept, move on. Repeat.

I spent the entire morning talking to a friend who needed advice. My advice to her: don't marry with the expectation that he will change; if you are not willing to marry him as he is, perhaps you are not ready to marry.