Finding the Balance then Tipping the Scale (TWO)

[Adam04]

Hi Adam, I have a quick question about this quote:

I said yeah, by summer? Yall can go. She said yall? Why not we? She asked what would he think if I wasn't there. I asked her how would that look if we went on a cruise and where would I be, in a different room? I said we are separating in 5 more months and I am more concerned about how he will feel once we separate and I'm not living with them. That's when I told her that I would want 50% custody and maybe we need to start thinking about legal advice on how to split things for the separation.

Why did you bring this up? Are you dead set on separating? You are coming off as bitter. Why even bring up the part about staying in different rooms? Why not say "yea that would be fun" and move on if you don't want to talk about it?

Hey ovrrnbw,

Thanks for showing some support.

1 reason why I brought it up is because I do not initiate conversations with W, but I do have things I need to talk to her about like the details of the separation as it relates to the kids. Basically felt like this was an opportunity for that. When she mentioned the trip, I knew it would be after our separation, end of May, and I couldn't pretend we were going to be okay. I am worried about the kids and I do feel like at some point we will need to have that sit down with them prior to the separation. Part of the issue right now, as of late, is that W wants to pretend our sitch is okay and we can still be one big, happy family. She'll take holiday pics of her and the boys and post them up, and I refuse to check FB on them, but I had a brother today ask me about us since he saw the pics were only of her and the boys. Then she wants for us to go out together as a family? NO. She wants to tell my S6 that daddy doesn't want to kiss her? Or she'll have my older son ask if we are going out to eat together when I told her prior the reason why I am not going. So she knows why but still wants our son to ask me. How devious is that? Sandi mentioned everything is through the lens of respect. So I brought the convo up and said yall go ahead because I wanted her to know I'm not playing along. She can't get me to pretend for her.

I saw it as disrespectful, and sorta temp checking to see how I felt about us being together for the kids. Maybe I am overreacting and putting too much behind it.

It's not like I don't want to talk about it, I feel like I will need to, but again I don't initiate unless its important or she brings it up. Like when she told my S10 to ask me if he could stay home alone.. I thought she was out of her damn mind. Told both of them NO. If my son had shown he was mature and responsible, that's different but he isn't, not to stay home all day by himself.


Yes, pretty much dead set on the separation. I feel like I can't be 100% passive in what is leading up to the split. It's inevitable. Sandi mentioned the split can't appear as a separation where I'm still wanting to work it out. It needs to be a statement from what I got from it. There's some underlying thoughts on that too. I have been unhappy, W and I both. We have stated we wanted D before but quickly retracted. I want to separate to see how I truly feel as well.

Also the way I feel is 100% positive that W will not show any remorse. Most likely she will try to be deceitful if she needs me to help her with the kids at her new place. Quick recap, she told me I should find an apt when her sister was going to move in with her. A SIL got pregnant so is due in June. The sister who was going to move in currently lives with the SIL and told W she will stay there to help with the new baby. Once W found out, she said I could stay at the house and she didn't want to D. Can't trust nothing and she's highly manipulative.

After thinking about it, I think I'm okay with being a little bitter. Doesn't change anything about us needing to come together and discuss the arrangements down the road.

IMO 5 months will fly by and the talk with the kids, fixing up the place, and looking for the new apartment have been on the back of my mind. Thinking about the day to day preparations is overwhelming compared to the emotional stuff, I can sometimes put off on feelings.

If I read correctly, you are DB'ing in hopes of recon. So my advice would be to not bring up divorce or separation unless you are wanting to talk about that with her.

I think she is probably very confused right now in what you are thinking and also with herself too..

I started off here in hopes to find something that could help me fix my sitch. Quickly realized there is no magic bullet but rather than leaving to go elsewhere to find help with what I need to do with my kids and how to handle their emotions, I stuck it out here to learn to better myself.

Currently, I don't think it's accurate to say I want to recon therefore I am DB. I want to DB so that I can be a better person if I recon or D. You ask me right now if I think we will D and I am 90% sure.

She said she had needed this time to figure out her feelings and that she was still angry.

I want to believe her here. If she was deadset on divorce, she'd have done it by now.

Yeah, but being here, we're alrdy D.

She asked me if I had a girlfriend and if this was why I had this change. I told her no, I don't need to be in another relationship or see someone else to feel this way. I also said something, taking a cheapshot, about I'm not weak to look outside our marriage.

Why not just answer her question and say "No"? Everything else was just passive aggressive garbage. You wouldn't like someone talking to you like that. Do a 180 there. Catch yourself when you get agitated and nip it in the bud.

That whole convo about the cruise was unnecessary. The good thing is you have plenty of time to turn this around. But you need to purge some of those bad feelings before interacting with her.

Merry Christmas.

on the passive aggressive, I know.. I knew better.

That's the reason why I'm sticking around, hoping to DB and change to be a better person overall.

[Adam04]

Quick post before work,

Christmas was nice. Woke up with the kids, W made breakfast. We opened presents with them. Boys loved it, we took lots of pics. None of us all together. That was ok. My S10 wanted to get mom a gift and he chose some perfume and I helped him pick out some house shoes for her. The youngest one came in study with her prior to Christmas asking me what I wanted, told him candy and he was telling me that's not a gift, I said for me since I've been working out it will be. She got me an I watch. Haven't opened it. Thinking will let her know I can't accept it but it doesn't matter to bring it up. I don't initiate on other stuff so won't on this. Just gonna g to leave it in a box in a drawer.

She left on Christmas to attend mass with the kids and see her family who all went together to the cemetery afterwards for her dad who passed away on Christmas Day. She did ask me if I wanted the go and I said my usual no thank you. When she was out I drove out to where she is getting the new house built. I checked apartments in the area. Found some.

I've been thinking about custody lately. Will get with attorney in January. 50/50 will be very hard due to W and I planned I was going to look for new job in area, probably less paying one to be closer to kids. This was before BD. If I move out there it could add another hour to my commute. Worried about custody. It is feasible to live in between work and her place but I don't know what that will look like with custody.

Last night she said she was dropping kids off at her brothers and spending a night there so her relatives can watch them as she goes to work these next two days. Little suspicious but nothing I can do but let it roll off like water on a ducks back.


Going thru ww threads a second time and also rereading DR. Things are popping out at me more now.

[ovrrnbw]

Ok, this is just very weird.

You aren't separated yet. By assuming that you are going to separate, you are believing what she says. Don't believe anything she says. You are bringing life to this story.

If I'm reading you correctly, you want to separate, but it seems like only because she does. If you are dead set on separating, why are you waiting? I wonder the same thing about your W. I don't (and your W won't) believe that you are separating on your terms, and not hers, if you are waiting to separate now.

But, you're in a tough spot where you are, rightfully, trying to stop the cake eating. Her wanting to phase you out while still enjoying the family life is tough.

[Adam04]

Ok, this is just very weird.

You aren't separated yet. By assuming that you are going to separate, you are believing what she says. Don't believe anything she says. You are bringing life to this story.

If I'm reading you correctly, you want to separate, but it seems like only because she does. If you are dead set on separating, why are you waiting? I wonder the same thing about your W. I don't (and your W won't) believe that you are separating on your terms, and not hers, if you are waiting to separate now.

But, you're in a tough spot where you are, rightfully, trying to stop the cake eating. Her wanting to phase you out while still enjoying the family life is tough.

Hey ovrrnbw,
It's IHS. Separate bedrooms. I'm in MBR. What do you mean by assuming we will separate I'm believing her? Just curious since I am not understanding fully.

I'm preparing to physically separate from her when we sell the house. I've always thought about leaving early since day 1 from BD but I didn't want to do it based on emotion. Had I done that I would have picked a crime filled area with the cheapest rent near work with no safety consideration for my kids. I'm glad I didn't do that as one of the ladies here lives in the apt I was looking at and said it's in the hood. I'm not keen on apt near work.

To answer your question on why wait? Finances. We dumped all our money into new house being built and when I started separate account it was from scratch and I have a lot of money going out. Last car repair was 3k out the pocket and I am saving for a new car as well. I have been thinking about what it looks like if I move out early. Realistically that may be May.

I've been apartment hunting in some of my free time.

Here's my options, wait til we move out this house which sends no msg.
Move out early. Either tell her or wait til she's at work and move my stuff and have her come home to find out. Don't know what this will do to kids. One reason why I want to figure out what to tell them soon. If I don't tell her it could send her all types of msg.
Don't do anything and think we will continue IHS in new house.

Earlier in my posts I was wanting to move out and do things for the wrong reasons like to see if they have an affect on her when I came to the forums. Prior to DB, I wanted to move out because I was hurt and didn't want to be with her. It's not separating because she wants it. I don't know what she wants right now but I can't sit idle.

Most likely I will move out on March and have some cushion after talking to a lawyer. Since we selling home don't think it will matter much later about who stays in it during the last month. Mulling this over vs staying to end.

Hope that helps.

[Adam04]

Yesterday after work and after much forum reading, I broke down in my car before heading home. All I can attribute it to was cycling grief and that 24 years ago on New Years, I had hopes to be with her but that didn't work out because she was with her ex. Now I feel like she will be with me but maybe her heart is elsewhere... I felt bad for not putting that kind of attachment to Christmas when thinking about my children and their imminent pain. Maybe I am trying to deal with things only in the moment. I have no idea but I didn't like being weak or crying.

As I was in my car in the emptying garage, one of my close friends called me. He doesn't know of my sitch but wanted to know how I was doing also because of the W FB pics without me in them. I explained the break down of the MR, and he asked if she was cheating or how'd I know. I told him that wasn't important. I told him of my journey now and how I acknowledged my part of the issues. He had dated his childhood sweetheart for many, many years like I had done. I look to this guy like a younger brother. He told me the reason they eventually split was because he has 2 felonies and went to school to be a mechanic while she got her masters and made it feel like he was crap. He said she told him he was nothing with her 6 figure salary. He said he also knew she was talking to a guy at work. I guess he wanted to empathize with me. He's with another woman now and going through his own struggles with her. Their son has 2 bouts with leukemia and is currently in the clear but problems loom over him. Their house got flooded, his W works nightshifts, and he's at home all day at the in laws. I warned him about my sitch. He says he sees it in his... So after our talk, it made me feel a little better. He also said he will call me back to discuss his sitch because a lot of what I said rang true in his. I told him he better hip that chit in the bud so I will hopefully help someone else. That night i went to a restaurant for the first time by myself. Ate and read. Ate, went home, and crashed. W was out with the kids at her brother's house.

So this morning, I've been in the MBR all day. W came to the door knocked and said she made some breakfast. I go out with the little one and eat. I go back into the MBR after a little while. She knocks, comes in, and says her mother will be in the guest bedroom in the house. She said the bed came in for the room. She also said we needed to have a serious talk.

So... I laid in bed, listening. She opens up with her not knowing how the future looked. She said she felt bad because this year it seemed like I checked out, I wasn't there. She went on to explain several different occasions and things I had done or not done and how it made her feel. One of the things She mentioned was how her work made her feel, like she was in control and was somebody and when she didn't go on a trip, she wanted me to listen instead of playing devils advocate. She said she didn't want us to be like her father and mother living in separate rooms. She talked about her dad passing and how she wished she could still come to me freely. When she said I stopped caring about my health she got scared and i told her I understood what i had done. I debated on admitting this but i felt it was the right time to let her know i had been doing some thinking and that i knew i was being codependent on her and i had taken her for granted. She opened up to me for an hour of talking. I mostly listened... sat, quietly, looking at her crying and we sat more. She would let time pass and say something else. I would nod or say i see what you are saying, or I hear you. Some cases I would say I agree. She told me she was tired of being the one to do everything and sometimes wanted me to step up. She kept repeating she didn't want to be like her parents. She said she had a lot of anger and resentment she had to deal with. She said she doesn't know what our future looks like and she is so sad about it.

She said she was sorry she was not the one i wanted to be with, that I blamed my unhappiness on her. I let her say how she felt. I didn't say no or try to fix it. After a while she mentioned something about the food and how terrible she is at certain things like cooking. She recently made a pot of gumbo and she said she had a stomach ache for 3 days. I acknowledged and said me too, but i didn't want to say anything. We both laughed. I did tell her she was right in that the other me, this old me maybe would have said something and complained. I didn't want to tell her i changed, i want to work on this or that there is hope to give me another chance. I refrained from wanting to say so much.

She said she missed our talks and now things are awkward. She said she is happy with all of my changes and asked me a couple of questions about my weight, and going out. She said she could see a difference from me going out and what that is doing for me, i said she was right. She apologized for hurting me.

The conversation moved out from the MBR and i thought we were done when something came at the front door but she continued to want to talk. She said she missed us, the friendship and asked if we could still be friends. I had this look bunching my eyebrows together. She said not like that, she said maybe we can talk to see where this is going to fix it. I told her i could not be her friend and said no more. She said its just so awkward, and i said yeah, I know... i think it comes with the territory. I did say this, when that day happened the way it did and because of what she said that's he wanted D, she drew that line in the sand and we are on separate sides. She agreed. She asked me what did I want to do. I told her this is not something I could answer. I told her she has to figure this out for herself. She has a lot of anger and resentment. She asked me if i was going to be okay. I said yes. She said she is going to see about going to counseling. I paused, then said ok. Then she popped a bottle of persico and our son came in, and the talk changed to something else.

I left to get rdy to go out. Wanted to type this before heading out for a bit. It is all a blur. sorry if this seems like rambling. This is the first time she has opened up for so long, so much, and said she wanted counseling. I wont make nothing of it, and will proceed with extreme caution. I remember trust nothing they say.

I don't know what this will do though and if that's a positive or negative with helping her to sort through her feelings of the anger and resentment. Baby steps right?

[joejoe1]

Adam,

This is great. She is starting to feel safe around you. She came to you to open up about her feelings, which is what you want. She also acknowledged your changes, also great. You doing great, stay the course.

You need to write down some specific actions from your W that will help guide you.

Mines were: Get my W to have a the M or R talk with me (her being the one to open up that convo)

Have W tell me she loves me

Have W make a family outing including me.

Wife touches me.

Wife tells me aboit daily life.

I used these actions as guide post and goals.

I hope these help.

Onward and forward

[ovrrnbw]

Adam,

you did great. Much better than I ever did on that timeframe. My W brings up "being friends". I always shot that down like a quail just jumped out of the brush. But what my wife was talking about was being a partner, someone she could confide in and share her feelings with.

As a guy, nothing is more powerful for wrapping a woman around your finger than connecting with her emotionally. Don't believe me? Well, take a look at all the loser OM on this site that are stealing the WW's.

I think you and your W are clear on what she means and what you mean in regards to "being friends". Keep up the good work.

How's the weight loss, GAL, and 180s coming?

[Adam04]

Hey joejoe and ovrrnbw, thanks for responding.

joejoe, what will the list help with since I'm still giving emotional and physical space and not initiating talks?


BTW, forgot yesterday, W said "I still love you, but I am angry and resentful" The first time in 4 months she said she still loved me. I know not to believe them and one of the reasons I did not get emotional was that I kept thinking about her lying to me. I played it cool though and listened. One day I will have my time to speak.

ovrrnbw, I'm doing well on the gal,180, weight loss. Felt like plateauing this month, close to 70 pounds so far but I noticed I need to double up on the cardio to feel any burn.

GAL I am going out solo more. I enjoy quiet time to myself reading or watching videos. Went out today to visit family. last week was a friend. spending time with the kids playing sports or taking them out. starting to hit different restaurants by myself.

180s, a lot of it is mental, like being quiet during validation instead of being mr fixer. I had a whole list and paragraphs of stuff going back to my childhood. I have let a lot of resentment and anger go. I misplaced a lot of that and put it on my W and my mother. The way I saw love and how W and I were responsible for each others happiness was distorted. I cant say some of the 180s are working yet until I put them into practice. Much of it is self awareness and knowing better I will do better. I'm responsible for my own actions. independent. Not dependent on W. Working on my physical appearance. Emotionally, I am not pursuing W. I am giving us space and time. Mentally, I am doing a lot of self reflecting and using this time to learn and pick up on techniques and tools to help along the way. I see myself in info gathering stage.

[joejoe1]

Adam,

I understand what you are doing. I should give more info. Do you have indicators in place to help judge when/if your W coming out of her FOG. Do you have indicators to help you know if your WW is coming back towards your side of the road. You need indicators to help you decide what choices you should make next. All the examples I presented to you were your W approaching you to start talks. But if your W is coming to you opening up, should you push away in those moments, I think it would be unwise. Her opening can be an indicator of her feeling safe with her feelings around you. A really good sign/indicator

Think about this, if your W is opening up to you about her feelings, that means she most likely has subsided her emotional opening up to her AP. It's hard for people to be completely vurnable with two peoole at once. If she starts to give her emotions to you again that's a good sign. I wrote down five, "if my W does" comments. If she does one then maybe she is temp testing, but if she does 3 or 4 or all five, then she is most likely coming out the fog and seeing reality and has sincerity about what she is doing and saying. My phone coach, Chuck gave me that as an assignment. It really helped guide, especially when my W started to do those things, and when she did then multiple times I had to change course, to start and think about piecing.

Onward and forward

[burned]

Hey Adam,

I like the positive changes, if that’s what they are. But let me be the devil’s advocate.

“I still love you,” “Let’s be friends,” “I can see your changes,” “I’m sorry I hurt you.” My W said those things WHILE she was still with OM. I mean, while I was CERTAIN that he was still in her life.

Take it all with a gigantic grain of salt. Don’t deny positive changes; accept them for what they are. But consider this fine quote from Marcus Aurelius, Roman emperor and Stoic philosopher:

“The art of living is more like wrestling than dancing, in as much as it, too, demands a firm and watchful stance against any unexpected onset.”

(Consistent, positive changes over a long time...)