burned right through another thread

[MoveFrwd]

Then she's free to do whatever she wants, including choosing whether or not to be with me.

Is that not the situation right now? Or ever....?

[burned]

It is.

So let her do whatever she wants. File, don't file, come back, don't come back, sleep with OM, sleep with nobody, sell the house, dump the cat in a swamp.

It just doesn't really matter, right?

[Yail]

Then she's free to do whatever she wants, including choosing whether or not to be with me.

Is that not the situation right now? Or ever....?

Burned, I think I'm going to say something that may sound cruel. I truly apologize if it is, but I want to see if this resonates with you with the intent of trying to help.

You say that she she can do whatever she wants, but you struggle with it. I totally get it - it hurts A LOT. You aren't getting what you want, which is the R. So I understand why you're fighting it internally.

But in your writings you really aren't seeing her as a full human being deserving of her own decision making power, her own desires, her own actions. With rights of her own. You aren't seeing her as person with full agency of her mind and body. How much of this was your thinking within your R?

I'm guessing this falls under codependency, which I believe you are more educated in after your readings and group discussion. I believe you are aware of this dynamic.

Even when you rationalize that she can do what she likes, often times it's followed up about how it's wrong. I remember you stating that she could file for a D, but would "do it wrong". You're treating her like she is beneath you with this attitude - that you KNOW what's best, but she just isn't there yet.

Sometimes you bounce back from this perspective, so I see your struggle is actually with you not getting what you want - I don't think you ACTUALLY see her as beneath you. But it's a fine line and I just wanted to point it out.

My W and I were together a long time before we were M (8 years), so we used the term "partner" with each other. If you and your W had decided not to get M, but had the same relationship pre BD - would you have considered her your partner? Your partner in life, in decisions, in actions?

Again, I point this out because you seem to be on the cusp within your language, and I don't want you to move towards the dark-side of not seeing your W as your equal. That's certainly not the way to move towards any kind of R.

[MoveFrwd]

It is.

So let her do whatever she wants. File, don't file, come back, don't come back, sleep with OM, sleep with nobody, sell the house, dump the cat in a swamp.

It just doesn't really matter, right?

You cant control what she does.

You CAN control your reaction to what she does.

Can you 'stop her from sleeping with OM'? can you stop her from 'dumping the cat in the swamp'? No.

What can you do? What do you have control over?

[Wanted1]

So we make the legal agreement, split the cookie, and move on?

Then she's free to do whatever she wants, including choosing whether or not to be with me.

I responded to her text about finances after 5 days, saying, basically, OK let's do this. And now I haven't heard anything from her all day. Weird. Hope trouble isn't brewing.

I 'want' to think our WWs are on an emotional roller coaster, too, just like us. One minute I'm fine moving forward, the next I have second thoughts. Now, I will say that for the past 2 weeks my periods of having second thoughts have been getting less and less.

I don't remember what thread I saw this comment on, but if the WW really knew 100% that this is what they wanted, why aren't they aggressively pursuing it? Either by filing the initial pleadings themselves or hounding us every chance they get for us to get our rear ends in gear.

It sounds like your WW is the same as mine. They verbally tell us what they 'want,' but there is no action backing that up. Maybe your W doesn't truly know what the next step is and that could very well be what the hold up is in your sitch. Mine, however, is a L, just like me, and she absolutely knows how the process works. She told me 10 days ago (via text) that the initial pleadings she drew up were in a drawer in our MH and that 'if I want to get the process started, that's where they are and I need to sign the Certificate of Service.' (this was in response to me expressing my desire that if the end game is her moving out, I'd rather she do it as soon as possible rather than waiting around) I didn't respond to that text right away. Later on in the day, I had a weak moment and asked her if she wanted me to sign it so she could file right away. I said I wanted her thoughts and feelings on this. I told her this is her decision, not mine, but I won't stand in the way anymore.

Not sure if that would be considered pursuit or not, but on the flip side, I haven't heard boo from her since. She never responded to my text and she hasn't said anything more about it in the meantime.

Ironically, today I was out of town and took the document with me to have notarized. I didn't want to do it in town for probably some weak and stupid reasons. I didn't want anyone knowing my business yet.....So, I signed the document and had it notarized and put it right back in the drawer when I got home. I'm not telling her that I did it. The initial text from 10 days ago went on to say that I could scan and email them to her and she would file them. That would require me doing some work toward getting a D IMO. I'm not going to do that. If she wants to file, she can either respond to my inquiry from 10 days ago or if she goes into the drawer to look at the paperwork, she will notice my signature is there and she can take them and file them. The ball is in her court. I didn't stand in the way by not signing, but I'm also not actively engaged in getting it filed either.

[burned]

I want to see if this resonates with you with the intent of trying to help.

You say that she she can do whatever she wants, but you struggle with it. I totally get it - it hurts A LOT. You aren't getting what you want, which is the R. So I understand why you're fighting it internally.

But in your writings you really aren't seeing her as a full human being deserving of her own decision making power, her own desires, her own actions. With rights of her own. You aren't seeing her as person with full agency of her mind and body. How much of this was your thinking within your R?

This.

This is why she left. I was codependent, enmeshed. She felt "smothered" and ignored, "less than," "never good enough." From the minute I discovered the A it was all about me and how her actions made me feel. She knew that, felt it, said it. There are tons of other examples that I don't want to get into because it hurts me to think of how badly I hurt her (see, there it is). It means that she's right that she suffered for so many years before finally building up the courage to free herself. And it implies that the A was the ONLY way she could escape from someone as controlling, domineering, shaming, and egocentric as me. She saw me turning into my father and had to hit the road.

During the brief span of about a month and a half during which I COULD have expressed to her that I didn't want it to be that way and that I would do anything to change, she said "too little too late, you've said that before and you've never managed to change." She said change would take a long time and that it would be wrong of her to expect me to change my entire personality.

So. Now I'll have to sit with this for a bit.

Edit. I took a moment to settle down and realized: if there was anything I would need to change, it would be that mentality. And if there's one thing I've learned since BD, it would be that that's a lousy way to treat a person. And I mean I wasn't a monster, but that was probably the undertone that she felt throughout the M.

If there's ever a time when she will look back, even if that time were tomorrow, she'd see that I've already made progress in changing that. My fear is that she'll always be afraid and will never even bother.

[burned]

What can you do? What do you have control over?

Lots of things. What I eat, what I do with my time, when I feel like going to sleep, who I spend my time with, etc.

I can't say I'm a GAL champion but I'm making slow progress. What you see me writing here is more like, rumination about the conceptual stuff. But like you said earlier, it doesn't make sense to try to understand the WW.

But then Yail hits me with that bomb ^^^ and off I go spinning again.

[MoveFrwd]

What can you do? What do you have control over?

Lots of things. What I eat, what I do with my time, when I feel like going to sleep, who I spend my time with, etc..

Interesting.....see a pattern?

[Yail]

I want to see if this resonates with you with the intent of trying to help.

You say that she she can do whatever she wants, but you struggle with it. I totally get it - it hurts A LOT. You aren't getting what you want, which is the R. So I understand why you're fighting it internally.

But in your writings you really aren't seeing her as a full human being deserving of her own decision making power, her own desires, her own actions. With rights of her own. You aren't seeing her as person with full agency of her mind and body. How much of this was your thinking within your R?

This.

This is why she left. I was codependent, enmeshed. She felt "smothered" and ignored, "less than," "never good enough." From the minute I discovered the A it was all about me and how her actions made me feel. She knew that, felt it, said it. There are tons of other examples that I don't want to get into because it hurts me to think of how badly I hurt her (see, there it is). It means that she's right that she suffered for so many years before finally building up the courage to free herself. And it implies that the A was the ONLY way she could escape from someone as controlling, domineering, shaming, and egocentric as me. She saw me turning into my father and had to hit the road.

During the brief span of about a month and a half during which I COULD have expressed to her that I didn't want it to be that way and that I would do anything to change, she said "too little too late, you've said that before and you've never managed to change." She said change would take a long time and that it would be wrong of her to expect me to change my entire personality.

So. Now I'll have to sit with this for a bit.

Edit. I took a moment to settle down and realized: if there was anything I would need to change, it would be that mentality. And if there's one thing I've learned since BD, it would be that that's a lousy way to treat a person. And I mean I wasn't a monster, but that was probably the undertone that she felt throughout the M.

If there's ever a time when she will look back, even if that time were tomorrow, she'd see that I've already made progress in changing that. My fear is that she'll always be afraid and will never even bother.

A few thoughts on your response.

1) "...because it hurts me to think of how badly I hurt her (see, there it is)"

I don't think you being hurt over hurting her is codependency. I actually think this is empathy and it the opposite of codependency. I think this is a good thing. Because empathy means you see the other person's emotions and feel them too - you see them as a human that you can relate to. You see THEM. Not you.

2) Too Little Too Late is something we are all fighting. She probably didn't see a problem until she reached this point. I think that's the case for a lot of folks (it's fine until it's not). So don't beat yourself up on this perceived window. It probably wasn't a real window.

3) Changing the mentality: I'd argue it starts with language. Be very aware of what you say. Words in your head. I think that's how our thinking changes.

And if there's one thing I've learned since BD, it would be that that's a lousy way to treat a person. And I mean I wasn't a monster, but that was probably the undertone that she felt throughout the M.

You were not a monster. That's true. My W started this behavior over the past couple of years - it was new. I'd point it out to her nearly every time. In the end of our R she said that she couldn't seem to stop, and that was one of the major flaws in our R and why she thought we weren't good together. This confuses me because it was new, but I think now it may have been a symptom of her depression. She wanted things to be controlled maybe because she didn't feel she had control in her life. I'm purely speculating. My point is, my W is not a monster. She had a bad habit of trying to undercut me but I saw it as just that - a bad habit. I'm sad we didn't get to fix that habit because I think it's totally fixable. I think the main thing is to be aware.

[burned]

They verbally tell us what they 'want,' but there is no action backing that up. Maybe your W doesn't truly know what the next step is and that could very well be what the hold up is in your sitch.

Mine isn't a L. But she also isn't an idiot (sorry if I make her seem that way), and she knows how to google. Her IC is a D coach. Several people in her family have gone through D. She knows what the next step is and she knows that she doesn't HAVE to wait around for me to do anything before she does something. She WANTS to do it the easy way, without filing first, just the usual "we file together" method. I think the holdup was just how little free time she had during the semester. The M is of so little importance to her that she just sort of set it aside until now. Semester is over so I think there will be movement.