Seeing some rays of light (pain18 DB IX)

[burned]

it sure as hell isn't coming to the DB boards and ignoring all advice while doing all the wrong things because they think their sitch is different or they know better.

Head. Shot. With a splintered 2x4.

[Bo562]

I've been here a long time and I'd say that number is probably more like 50% to 75%. But here's something the numbers don't tell you. DB'ing is about fighting for your M by not fighting. By focusing on yourself and giving your spouse time and space. Well guess what happens if you DB properly? Eventually you find your balls again and realize you have a lot of value as a person and you don't need to put up with crappy behavior from a crappy excuse for a wife. Eventually you realize that beautiful, loving, tender, caring woman you married has been abducted and you're trying to recon with some hateful, angry, vengeful, remorseless, adulterous creature inhabiting her old shell. Most LBS's end up getting an opportunity to recon, but it comes so far down the road that they've moved on to the point that they no longer want that person in their life. LBS's all come here thinking they are powerless, but they are in fact masters of their own destiny, even eventually making the final decision to recon or not. They just don't know it yet.

Is it still considered being attached if I still hold on to hope? Or do I need to let go of that as well?

Hope is yours for as long as you want it. Hope is what drives us to do amazing things in life. ALWAYS have hope.

A/S with the straight fire. He nails it, and it’s stuff like this that gives me hope, too.

[Phoenix9]

Don't get her anything, and don't give her a note. Both would be the worst kind of pursuit behavior and I think you know by now that pursuit is getting you nowhere.

]I don't think he knows. Why is he asking if he knows?

I did not know. I went back and forth for days on this topic in my mind for days and needed some objective perspective. To have it pointed out is something I still need. I ask because I want to reduce the amount of mistakes I make. So far, using the feedback I have obtained has helped me continue to make progress.

My heart sunk when I stumbled upon a post that said that 90% of the folks who post here end up getting divorced.

I've been here a long time and I'd say that number is probably more like 50% to 75%. But here's something the numbers don't tell you. DB'ing is about fighting for your M by not fighting. By focusing on yourself and giving your spouse time and space. Well guess what happens if you DB properly? Eventually you find your balls again and realize you have a lot of value as a person and you don't need to put up with crappy behavior from a crappy excuse for a wife. Eventually you realize that beautiful, loving, tender, caring woman you married has been abducted and you're trying to recon with some hateful, angry, vengeful, remorseless, adulterous creature inhabiting her old shell. Most LBS's end up getting an opportunity to recon, but it comes so far down the road that they've moved on to the point that they no longer want that person in their life. LBS's all come here thinking they are powerless, but they are in fact masters of their own destiny, even eventually making the final decision to recon or not. They just don't know it yet.

And I'm starting to feel both the effects DBing is having on me in my life as well as how it is affecting my relationships with everyone else. Detaching during this process has been incredibly difficult.

I don't think there is a wrong way of DBing (is there, other than not doing it at all?). It just takes some people longer to make tangible progress.

The other 10% were just fortunate that things somehow started to work out.

BS. The ones that recon (and it is way more than 10%) are mostly model DBers that have put in a TON of work. And then once they recon they continue to work their tails off. It's not just luck that gets them there, and it sure as hell isn't coming to the DB boards and ignoring all advice while doing all the wrong things because they think their sitch is different or they know better.

It feels like a ton of work. And before I would shy away from it because the amount of effort it would take to have a chance. Now, I still have the same chances, but it's a lot better than not doing anything at all.

Hope is yours for as long as you want it. Hope is what drives us to do amazing things in life. ALWAYS have hope.

It's still there.

[ovrrnbw]

Wow, I'm pumped after reading AS's post. Positive mental attitude (PMA) for everyone!

Pain, just relax, breathe. Have a canned response or two ready for W, like "I'll think about that and let you know". And don't get sucked in. Enjoy life my friend!

[Ready2Change]

No, but should I?

You need to ask HE has some good advise. He appears very confident. Always dressing sharp. I like listening to him because he is very aware of his vocal tonality (one of his topics).

Link

[Phoenix9]

Day 145,

I have been sensing a lot things around me giving me increasing hope that I will be out of this storm soon. While I drive, I listen to random stuff on YouTube. This week, it's listening to Simpsons episodes in Japanese. I had a clip going this morning as I was driving.

The clip was out of the episode Duffless. It was towards the end of the episode where Homer goes through his 30 days without drinking. At the end of the 30 days, he is getting ready to go to the bar to "get loaded" before Marge stops him and tries to get him to reconsider and go on a bike ride. Homer glosses over her and goes to Moe's and orders a beer but does not drink it. He leaves the bar without taking a drink to take Marge on the bike ride. As Homer rides his bike with Marge sitting on the handlebars, they sing "Raindrops Keep Falling on my Head" in Japanese. I then expected the clip to end, but it did not. The end credits started to roll and the original song covered wonderfully by Kipp Lennon played. I pulled over and soaked in the moment and just watched the sun rise over the river.

I don't know if it is coincidence or not that this happened. I just know those sequence of events this morning made me really happy and allowed me to forget for a few moments of what I am dealing with.

[Ready2Change]

Day 145,

I have been sensing a lot things around me giving me increasing hope that I will be out of this storm soon. While I drive, I listen to random stuff on YouTube. This week, it's listening to Simpsons episodes in Japanese. I had a clip going this morning as I was driving.

The clip was out of the episode Duffless. It was towards the end of the episode where Homer goes through his 30 days without drinking. At the end of the 30 days, he is getting ready to go to the bar to "get loaded" before Marge stops him and tries to get him to reconsider and go on a bike ride. Homer glosses over her and goes to Moe's and orders a beer but does not drink it. He leaves the bar without taking a drink to take Marge on the bike ride. As Homer rides his bike with Marge sitting on the handlebars, they sing "Raindrops Keep Falling on my Head" in Japanese. I then expected the clip to end, but it did not. The end credits started to roll and the original song covered wonderfully by Kipp Lennon played. I pulled over and soaked in the moment and just watched the sun rise over the river.

I don't know if it is coincidence or not that this happened. I just know those sequence of events this morning made me really happy and allowed me to forget for a few moments of what I am dealing with.

Awesome post!

This is how you move forward.

[Phoenix9]

I had a GAL event tonight. Went mostly well. I'm spending the night in a hotel room now and saw Vanilla's post. I had the talk with WW a few days ago about me forgiving myself and she was upset at how I can do that first and not forgive WW. I cannot right now. I don't know when I will. I don't know how I will.

V's quotes and my responses follow:

It isn't our job to forgive anything at all for another. It takes away another's higher power and it's between them and their higher power. Just as our forgiveness for ourselves is ours alone for us to manage. We aren't a higher power and can't be for another. Giving up the need to forgive releases us to love and also stops the blockages to connection.

What we think of them and what they think of us is personal to each and none of the others business.

So, give up the need to forgive, it truly won't release you. It's detachment that will do so and what will release you from revenge, bitterness and anger? Letting go. That allows you to move on and turn the other cheek.

I am no where close to releasing any of those feelings. The pain is still too immense and when I find out more details, the wounds open up anew and the feelings of revenge, bitterness, and anger come up anew. And it's not so much that I still want R (I'm going to call it R2 from now on) with WW. It's more just how much unfathomable damage WW has caused me. And the pain is doubled when our WW was threatening me with severe consequences for cheating on me (WW spins it saying we are S and she is not cheating. BS. And I'm making it clear to my circle of friends that is what she is indeed cheating)

I know..."You have to let it go, Pain." I know I need to. And I hope I will someday. But in the foreseeable future, that is not even an option.

The popular wisdom is that forgiveness releases and the popular wisdom is just that: a belief which can be unfounded. Forgiveness of self causes release after atonement, forgiveness of others binds us to their actions and pains inflicted on us. It is up to us to manage our reactions to the actions and do that which assists us in our growth. That is a big enough challenge on it's own.

It's huge. I have recently fully forgiven myself for my contribution and it has allowed me to further learn, heal, and grow from this.

However remembering is necessary for pause and self love. It is the new boundaries that we set that helps us to release our feelings, insecurity and makes us strong. The need to forgive is weak.

I hope to get some more insight on this. I'd like some clarification on this statement. Maybe I am not understanding completely.

Forgiveness puts us one up on the other, it inhibits the Karma bus from acting. It creates a place where forgiveness is necessary and trust a requirement. Can they earn your trust back? What a difficult position you put yourself in determining if trust can be 'won' back. Let it go.

Have I forgiven the G? Absolutely not my job to do so, have I let go of my need to forgive? Absolutely. And it is the most releasing and healing thing of all, to be neutral and calm. Free of any negative poison, gone. Would I give the G any thought these days? Only in these pages where my story is written. I don't even block him on FB or any other way because I truly don't care if he or his little BIT haunt my SM (which they do) , It's truly freeing not to even be bothered. I recommend releasing yourself and being free of that need of forgiving. Instead observe if the atoning actions match the words. Not your job to punish, let WW higher power do that.

Again, I have no reason to forgive WW right now. None. I need to see remorse on her end to even consider it.

What is the opposite of love? It is indifference, it is letting go, it is moving on and not looking back. It is starting anew, afresh with a clean slate.

That alone makes the returning wayward look to atone their actions. So if asked have you forgiven me? Say, that's not my job to do. That gives the wayward behaviour no get out at all, none. That holds the wayward to account in full. It is strong. Forgive yourself for everything connected, waywardness is the waywards choice in full, it holds them accountable for it in full with their own higher power.

Wise words to remember for if WW and I have this conversation again.

For you that new start may mean WW, I doubt you will ever forget those dark days, they changed you.

The pain is fresh, the scars are permanent. I will never be the same again. I will never trust the same again. I will never love the same again. I will always be questioning two, three, four, five, beyond five times to ensure the truth. And even then I will always be skeptical.

If your R2 is to have a chance then let WW forgive herself, do the work and atone.

You don't need the Karma bus to run her over and to be in the driving seat. Be Meh about it all. If WW steps over your boundary then you enforce it and walk away and that is clear because you are strong. That can never be the same. You can observe but not absorb.

Vanilla, I do hope you get the chance to gloss over my sitch and answer some of the questions I am posing with this post.

[Vanilla]

I had a GAL event tonight. Went mostly well. I'm spending the night in a hotel room now and saw Vanilla's post. I had the talk with WW a few days ago about me forgiving myself and she was upset at how I can do that first and not forgive WW. I cannot right now.

You only have the requirement to forgive yourself. You have done the work, you have worked it through and atoned. There is no requirement to keep on atoning that is the road to endless pain. Atoning in ways that validate another wants is valid to do and necessary but to self it's excellent and allows you to grow. Her upset is her business to work through. And forgiving yourself yours, it helps neither of you for you to punish you and get in your own way.

Some folk say they forgive another's actions, for me just being blah about it is enough. The G hasn't asked for forgiveness at all, he felt entitled to his behaviour. I counted 9OW in total. Some were POWs (potentials). He never asked nor felt the need. That means forgiveness? Even if I choose it? Nah? Between him and his higher power, it crosses my boundaries that's all I need to know. Crosses so far that R of any number is never ever going to be on the cards. His cheating is a result of me serving the wrong bacon? I am no longer even astonished at it, cheaters cheat, like dogs bark and drunks get drunk. It's me that is insane for wanting it different.

It is what it is, think of the parable of the scorpion and the frog, when you are the frog don't carry the scorpion across the river. Nah, scorpion, you are a scorpion. No thank you.

When you have shifted scorpion, given up that sting, then we can talk. But you are a scorpion and that's ok. I am a frog (Once a tadpole until I shifted.) and that's ok. I choose not to carry you across the river and not feel guilty for it.

I don't know when I will. I don't know how I will.

You don't have to, let go of that need. It's not possible to forgive a sinner who is sining. You wouldnr say to a burglar I forgive you when they are still taking goods from your home!

You may find the Jeanne Safer book on forgiveness helpful I think, it doesn't always match my personal philosophy but it was helpful to me on my journey. I let go of needing to forgive the unforgivable and I became unstuck. One of my major shifts, there are many.

V's quotes and my responses follow:

It isn't our job to forgive anything at all for another. It takes away another's higher power and it's between them and their higher power. Just as our forgiveness for ourselves is ours alone for us to manage. We aren't a higher power and can't be for another. Giving up the need to forgive releases us to love and also stops the blockages to connection.

What we think of them and what they think of us is personal to each and none of the others business.

So, give up the need to forgive, it truly won't release you. It's detachment that will do so and what will release you from revenge, bitterness and anger? Letting go. That allows you to move on and turn the other cheek.

I am no where close to releasing any of those feelings. The pain is still too immense and when I find out more details, the wounds open up anew and the feelings of revenge, bitterness, and anger come up anew. And it's not so much that I still want R (I'm going to call it R2 from now on) with WW. It's more just how much unfathomable damage WW has caused me. And the pain is doubled when our WW was threatening me with severe consequences for cheating on me (WW spins it saying we are S and she is not cheating. BS. And I'm making it clear to my circle of friends that is what she is indeed cheating)

I know..."You have to let it go, Pain." I know I need to. And I hope I will someday. But in the foreseeable future, that is not even an option.


In order to let go it is important for you to address the self talk. You don't have to do anything. Nothing is set in stone. Instead choose to let it go, give yourself permission to do it or not to do it. Behaviour serves us, so generally staying stuck is serving you, having the wounds is serving you. It would be a sign that you haven't forgiven yourself because you haven't atoned.

So why does punishing yourself with open wounds serve you?

What does it do for you?

Irrespective of your observation that WW is cheating, we can choose not to punish ourselves for another's behaviour even if directed at us. The best response when someone else is hitting themselves over the head with a hammer is not to hit ourselves with axe in pain. Punishing the self is not atoning, atoning is the work we do in repairing ourselves and growing into someone only a fool would leave. Whether they do so or not it's a winning strategy.

Choose n action rather than a must, have to etc is releasing. Choose is one of the more powerful words in the language.

The popular wisdom is that forgiveness releases and the popular wisdom is just that: a belief which can be unfounded. Forgiveness of self causes release after atonement, forgiveness of others binds us to their actions and pains inflicted on us. It is up to us to manage our reactions to the actions and do that which assists us in our growth. That is a big enough challenge on it's own.

It's huge. I have recently fully forgiven myself for my contribution and it has allowed me to further learn, heal, and grow from this.

Demonstrate that you have forgiven you by permitting yourself to let go and choosing more shift.

I say shift because change is reversible. Shift is permanent.

However remembering is necessary for pause and self love. It is the new boundaries that we set that helps us to release our feelings, insecurity and makes us strong. The need to forgive is weak.

I hope to get some more insight on this. I'd like some clarification on this statement. Maybe I am not understanding completely.

OK, clarification. You can reflect on who you were without living there and keeping it close. You can choose to love you and be who you are and know that who you are now is a result of past behaviour. Giving yourself credit for using the past to shift. Knowing who you were: and knowing how you are now makes iti worth remembering and acknowledging.

It's shift. It's growth and self development. Knowing what you want and how you want to be treated and in that way reflecting it back to others is walking the talk.

The need to forgive is weak because it's none of your business if someone else requires forgiveness, it's controlling. Either their behaviour fits your boundaries or it doesn't. If it doesn't then consequences, I it does there is no need to forgive is there? You act on that which is within your power to act, anything else is noise.

Letting go of the need for another to conform to your boundaries is strong.

Forgiveness puts us one up on the other, it inhibits the Karma bus from acting. It creates a place where forgiveness is necessary and trust a requirement. Can they earn your trust back? What a difficult position you put yourself in determining if trust can be 'won' back. Let it go.

Have I forgiven the G? Absolutely not my job to do so, have I let go of my need to forgive? Absolutely. And it is the most releasing and healing thing of all, to be neutral and calm. Free of any negative poison, gone. Would I give the G any thought these days? Only in these pages where my story is written. I don't even block him on FB or any other way because I truly don't care if he or his little BIT haunt my SM (which they do) , It's truly freeing not to even be bothered. I recommend releasing yourself and being free of that need of forgiving. Instead observe if the atoning actions match the words. Not your job to punish, let WW higher power do that.

Again, I have no reason to forgive WW right now. None. I need to see remorse on her end to even consider it.

Let go of this. You don't need remorse just behaviour which is within your reasonable boundaries. There is no control over another's remorse (not a good thing, this isn't criminal behaviour), what you prefer is WW to shift and to atone by shifting. This is action not feeling. Feeling remorse is ok for her to feel for her. In this you need atonement for WW to act from self love and to shift.

What is the opposite of love? It is indifference, it is letting go, it is moving on and not looking back. It is starting anew, afresh with a clean slate.

That alone makes the returning wayward look to atone their actions. So if asked have you forgiven me? Say, that's not my job to do. That gives the wayward behaviour no get out at all, none. That holds the wayward to account in full. It is strong. Forgive yourself for everything connected, waywardness is the waywards choice in full, it holds them accountable for it in full with their own higher power.

Wise words to remember for if WW and I have this conversation again.

For you that new start may mean WW, I doubt you will ever forget those dark days, they changed you.

The pain is fresh, the scars are permanent. I will never be the same again. I will never trust the same again. I will never love the same again. I will always be questioning two, three, four, five, beyond five times to ensure the truth. And even then I will always be skeptical.

Well that's helpful! DUH!

More absolutes, never, never, never!

Really?

Slap you with a wet fish so I will.

Mind reading, choosing for a future self now?

Chose to see scars as proud proof of life, choose to see them healed.

Next phase please.....

If your R2 is to have a chance then let WW forgive herself, do the work and atone.

You don't need the Karma bus to run her over and to be in the driving seat. Be Meh about it all. If WW steps over your boundary then you enforce it and walk away and that is clear because you are strong. That can never be the same. You can observe but not absorb.

Vanilla, I do hope you get the chance to gloss over my sitch and answer some of the questions I am posing with this post.

My thoughts, there is plenty here to make the next shift. Remember shift happens in a second, an instant. After work and struggle in those moments of stillness and deep thought it shifts.

Once shift occurs there is no going back.

Your journey has begun, it's time to concentrate on your growth and spiritual journey not WW journey. You have no say in hers other than to enforce your boundaries. They are her choices to make, instead make yours the right ones for you.

Make choices not absolutes. Choices are releasing and there is less resistance.

And it's ok to shift, choose it. Your higher spirit has taken you this far and it is part of you and can be trusted to guide you.

Those are my reflections.

V

[ovrrnbw]

she was upset at how I can do that first and not forgive WW

She's not asking for forgiveness. But the longer you go without forgiving her, the more you are holding on. It shows that you want her to help heal you, to make you feel better. But this is attachment. Find your own healing and detach your happiness from her, and do it for your own sake.

It's huge. I have recently fully forgiven myself for my contribution and it has allowed me to further learn, heal, and grow from this.

So forgive her too so that you can live your life.

However remembering is necessary for pause and self love. It is the new boundaries that we set that helps us to release our feelings, insecurity and makes us strong. The need to forgive is weak.

The boundary exists to protect yourself. It means you aren't letting her hurt you anymore, you are proactively preventing that from happening.

Again, I have no reason to forgive WW right now. None. I need to see remorse on her end to even consider it.

You may never get this. I may never get this. You and I forgive so that we can live happy. Seriously, my father resents every woman that has divorced him. He is old and bitter. Do you want to be like that?

V, I really loved this post

You don't need the Karma bus to run her over and to be in the driving seat. Be Meh about it all. If WW steps over your boundary then you enforce it and walk away and that is clear because you are strong. That can never be the same. You can observe but not absorb.

So many LBS's want the WS to "right the wrongs" and it's all about ending their pain. But that pain is tied to their attachment to the WS and the LBS allowing the WS to continue to hurt them. Boundaries really do take a while to figure out for us LBS who are hurt and wanting to believe.

Good luck Pain!!!!