What I learned from Wife's MLC- Part2

[kiro]

Previous threads

1st thread under For Newcomers: Need advide on detaching

2nd thread under For Newcomers: Need advice on detaching- Part 2

3rd thread under Midlife Crisis: Wife gone- No Contact for 5 months

4th thread under For Newcomers: What I learned from Wife's MLC

Here is a copy paste of my last post:

Although I feel I reached acceptance about moving on and rebuilding my life and I am looking forward to a new beginning, there is still something that seems to be missing.

I don't think I have full closure yet. I'd love to get some advice about the 3 issues I will raise at the end of this post.

Context:
STBXW and I haven't had any fight for the past 2 years. We were in good terms just before she left a year ago and we stayed in touch at least 3 months after that.

During all the time since BD until she left and then for the first 3 months after, we talked gently to each other, told each other what we were doing, laughed together, talked on the phone, texted and went out together from time to time.

I didn't blamed her for anything. I always stayed calm and never showed emotions about her leaving.

As most WAS/WW do, she criticized me and blamed me many times especially if we brought up the past or anything about the MR, but she always did it in a polite and calm way. Most of the time, she wouldn't bring it up and she would just talk about day to day stuff and she would do it nicely.

Then, we both went No Contact since (March 2018). Over the past 9 months, we had a few exchanges through texting and we met a couple of times for logistical matters to prepare for mediation and to evaluate our house. When we met in person, we were mostly gentle and polite.

The exchanges through texts were sometimes a little aggressive and included some blaming, especially regarding some details about divorce.

ISSUE #1:
My problem now is that there is a total lack of communication. We are both avoiding each other (her more than me). This is problematic because:

1/ we still have some paperwork to complete for D and many financials to sort out
2/ the lack of communication builds tension and resentment because of misinterpretations and misunderstanding
3/ we still have kids to raise and we don't have any shared vision about it
4/ exchanges through texting often lack details and can be easily misinterpreted as opposed to verbal or face to face communication

I tried explaining this to STBXW several times, but she continues to avoid any contact even when it is needed for important matters. She either doesn't communicate at all or she sends me short texts, then we end up arguing and blaming each other due to misunderstanding.

ISSUE #2:
Despite not thinking about my Sitch anymore when I am awake, it's a different story when I'm sleeping. I have been dreaming about STBXW almost every night for the past week. And in my dreams, I am actually still attached to her and don't want her to leave. It's annoying!

Does this shows that there is still an internal struggle inside me?

What do I need to do to get closure and stop this internal (subconscious) struggle? Do I need to go to IC?

ISSUE #3:
As I stated a few times before, I still struggle with forgiveness. I want to believe that I want forgive her smile , but in reality I am not really ready to forgive.

I wrote down all the things that I need to forgive. I can forgive everything she said and everything she did including the A. The one that I have a hard time forgiving is the fact that she never shared with me what was going on inside her and that she made the decision to move on without first talking about it and trying.

Do I need to forgive to get peace and to solve our communication problem?

Does forgiving mean that I condone her wrong actions? that she is not responsible for her actions?

Can I forgive if she doesn't offer any form of acknowledgment or apology?

Is forgiveness required to restore a relationship with her as my ExW and the mother of my children?

[kiro]

K, it's hard to respond because the choices for anyone here depends on particularized experiences and personalities. So much depends on who you are, who your ex-W is, and the relationship you had through the M. I will make one observation: I think we all owe it to ourselves to vent a little, but through all your posts, I sense you have generally tried to speak of your ex with respect. I don't recall your ever writing about her in a way that was insulting or unloving. Perhaps it is your inherent decency, perhaps hers, or perhaps your M was on the whole (despite the ups and downs of any M) based on mutual civility and friendship. I suspect it is all of the above, which makes the break-up all the more painful.

Q: Do I need to go to IC?
A: It helped me a lot. But choose carefully; a BAD therapist is worse than NO therapist.

Q: Does this shows that there is still an internal struggle inside me? What do I need to do to get closure and stop this internal struggle?
A: I suspect you are where you are in life because of discipline and focus. But treat yourself with the same compassion you have shown others on this board. This is a woman you've loved for a long time, probably with a love that can't easily be extinguished. As a very close friend told me about my sitch: "I would worry if you were NOT struggling with this."

Q: Is it required to restore a relationship with her as my ExW and the mother of my children?
A: Insofar as logistics and practical matters go, yes. Beyond that is up to you. For me, as I told my W: "If we end up dissolving a 35-year relationship without you even trying to work to save it, I don't think I could be your friend. I put too high a premium on my friendships."

Q: Forgiveness.
A: I won't go into details, but W did something long ago that hurt me deeply. I decided back then that forgiveness would help her; this was important because I love her. But ultimately, forgiveness was for ME. But it had to be authentic. Initially, forgiveness was a choice; it took a while, but the emotions eventually caught up with the will to forgive.

I feel uncomfortable saying all this because I do recognize how particularized every situation is. So, take this as just me sharing what helps me in my own situation.

[kiro]

K, I think we all owe it to ourselves to vent a little, but through all your posts, I sense you have generally tried to speak of your ex with respect. I don't recall your ever writing about her in a way that was insulting or unloving.

Paco, I'm sure I made some disrespectful comments about W at some point. But generally speaking, I don't know how to hold a grudge against someone for long. Sometimes, I get upset on the spot if she says or does something, but I usually forget and forgive right away. Usually, by the time I post something on this site, I don't have anything to vent anymore about her.

Q: Does this shows that there is still an internal struggle inside me? What do I need to do to get closure and stop this internal struggle?
A: I suspect you are where you are in life because of discipline and focus. But treat yourself with the same compassion you have shown others on this board. This is a woman you've loved for a long time, probably with a love that can't easily be extinguished. As a very close friend told me about my sitch: "I would worry if you were NOT struggling with this."

Agreed. I'll probably seek an IC to help me with closure.

Q: Is it required to restore a relationship with her as my ExW and the mother of my children?
A: Insofar as logistics and practical matters go, yes. Beyond that is up to you. For me, as I told my W: "If we end up dissolving a 35-year relationship without you even trying to work to save it, I don't think I could be your friend. I put too high a premium on my friendships."

I didn't mean friendship. My question was about forgiveness. Do I need to forgive her in order to be able to deal with her on logistics and practical matters?

Q: Forgiveness.
A: I won't go into details, but W did something long ago that hurt me deeply. I decided back then that forgiveness would help her; this was important because I love her. But ultimately, forgiveness was for ME. But it had to be authentic. Initially, forgiveness was a choice; it took a while, but the emotions eventually caught up with the will to forgive.

Forgiveness is the most difficult part for me now. It is too intertwined with accepting that I have to maintain a different type of relationship with her as an ExW and the mother of my kids, but not as my W. I'm still not ready for that.

[kiro]

Today’s thought:

MLC is about much more than MR.

Life is also about much more than MR.

My father is 82. He is still working at a very senior level and a highly demanding job. He called me today and told me that for the first time, he feels old. I asked him about God. He has always been an agnostic and I got confirmation today that he maintains his belief that nothing about God can be known for certain.

There is so much more to life than our MR and our spouse. There are many questions that need to be asked.

BD can and will be a wake up call for each one of us. Personally, I consider myself very lucky that this happened to me before it is too late.

Yes, it has been very painful and I wish my wake up call would have happened without losing my W.

But because Life is so much bigger than us, there is a Higher Knowledge and Wisdom that we don’t understand.

Most LBS’s will get over their Sitch and will be Ok. It will take some time, will involve pain, and will force changes.

But most probably, Change was needed. This is a sign from this Higher Intelligence that you need to wake up and change.

Life on earth is a journey that has an end. We will get older. We will die. Our kids will leave. Our closed ones will die. Our savings will dry up. Nothing stays forever.

If we were living on Auto Pilote before, then it’s time to wake up and live with purpose.

Ask the real questions. Don’t be afraid.

Believe in yourself and take risks.

The reason to stop pursuing your WAS has nothing to do with them and nothing to do with your MR. It has to do with you: You have more important things to do in this life and more important questions to ask.

Remember that nothing in this life is permanent. So nothing is ever worth hurting another human being (or any other creature). Our WAS failed to understand that. Don’t be like them.

Don’t have the illusion that you are safe from any harm or loss.

Be thankful for what you have, but don’t depend on any of it. You are stronger than you think. You just need to look deep inside yourself for that strength, courage and wisdom.

Believe in yourself. Be confident yet kind and generous.

Control your anger and bitterness, but accept sadness and loneliness as realities of life. You don’t need to feel joy and fun all the time. You need contentment and peace.

Life is a lonely journey. Even if we are surrounded by loved ones, the true nature of life is a lonely one. This is why it is important to gain back our individuality and accept it.

Take care of yourself. Live a healthy life, but don’t be arrogant or selfish.

Choose a virtuous life. Give and love without expectation. Forgive and be kind.

Be a good example for your kids.

Be the Lighthouse.

[Adam04]

kiro, in regards to your last post, that's beautiful man. I know I will be okay but this just re-affirms it.

Then, we both went No Contact since (March 2018). Over the past 9 months, we had a few exchanges through texting and we met a couple of times for logistical matters to prepare for mediation and to evaluate our house. When we met in person, we were mostly gentle and polite.

The exchanges through texts were sometimes a little aggressive and included some blaming, especially regarding some details about divorce.

ISSUE #1:
My problem now is that there is a total lack of communication. We are both avoiding each other (her more than me). This is problematic because:

1/ we still have some paperwork to complete for D and many financials to sort out
2/ the lack of communication builds tension and resentment because of misinterpretations and misunderstanding
3/ we still have kids to raise and we don't have any shared vision about it
4/ exchanges through texting often lack details and can be easily misinterpreted as opposed to verbal or face to face communication

I was having some issues of misinterpretation when texting back and forth. Some things I just don't think is a good idea to use text. Have you tried email? That way you can write out things in detail and if you are expecting a response, you can sort of say, okay I need either this OR this, you can pick one.

For simpler, quick things have you tried to write down what you needed to ask and then call her? something like for a yes or no but having the opportunity to clear up any misconceptions? I'd do the calls and emails and seldom use the text unless its for no brainer stuff like very simple yes or no questions that don't need 5 pages of law terms accompanying it.

ISSUE #2:
Despite not thinking about my Sitch anymore when I am awake, it's a different story when I'm sleeping. I have been dreaming about STBXW almost every night for the past week. And in my dreams, I am actually still attached to her and don't want her to leave. It's annoying!

Does this shows that there is still an internal struggle inside me?

What do I need to do to get closure and stop this internal (subconscious) struggle? Do I need to go to IC?

IC seems best bet unless you can think outside the box and have an out of the body experience. Just wanted to share FWIW. When I was a child, I shared a bed with my siblings and was scared of the dark. I had nightmares of Freddy Kruger and Jason. When I got older, when I started to sleep on my own, my nightmares did not go away, but how I dealt with them changed. When the bad man used to chase me when I was scared, I ran. When the bad man tried to chase me when I was no longer scared, In my dreams I no longer ran. Inside, something happened where I no longer was scared of the dark or afraid. I don't believe in the supernatural. When I have "dreams" now of something bad, I am able to control myself in the dreams. I am half awake if you will. It's the same courage I've gained if I see a pitbull in the street, I'd punch it in the nose if I have to.


After BD, I dreamed of W because I was fixated on her. I thought it was because I wanted to be with W and I could not, my mind was letting me relive my wants in my dream. Once I stopped the fixations, the dream went away. One day when I said I was over her, I had a haunting dream of her. My mind told me I was not over her. If you're good at identifying things within yourself and can manipulate your behaviors (for science), try it without the IC.

Give yourself some time, it could all go away soon.

I had a trauma where I was hospitalized for a while when I was 5 years old. I was in an accident where a truck backed up and ran over me cracking my skull. The back of my legs were burned/scraped due to being dragged on the asphalt. One night I guess after one of the nurses put cream on my leg, the bed rail was down. My leg slipped off the side of the bed and at this same time I remember having a nightmare that I was falling, my feet came up from under me. I woke up in a panic. I've had this fear of heights and falling for years. This incident caused me to wake up in sweats. There was nothing I could do until one day, out of the blue, I had the dream and I was falling, panicking... then something amazing happened. I learned to fly that day. Good thing is that they're no longer nightmares and I rarely get those dreams now.

ISSUE #3:
As I stated a few times before, I still struggle with forgiveness. I want to believe that I want forgive her smile , but in reality I am not really ready to forgive.

I wrote down all the things that I need to forgive. I can forgive everything she said and everything she did including the A. The one that I have a hard time forgiving is the fact that she never shared with me what was going on inside her and that she made the decision to move on without first talking about it and trying.

Do I need to forgive to get peace and to solve our communication problem?

Does forgiving mean that I condone her wrong actions? that she is not responsible for her actions?

Can I forgive if she doesn't offer any form of acknowledgment or apology?

Is forgiveness required to restore a relationship with her as my ExW and the mother of my children?

if you are able to forgive, I am sure it will bring you peace. Don't think it will solve communication problems though. That's an entirely different beast.

forgiveness is not condoning...

4 months after BD, not knowing how this plays out or if my emotions will change, I feel like I am qualified to say that for me, it depends on my spirituality and where I am at in my life.

I don't think you have to forgive just because she is the ex or the mother. Being civil doesn't mean you need to forgive, you don't have to be evil either.

[kiro]

Thanks Adam for the advice

I use emails more often than texts now. You’re right. It’s better.

The dreams started to go away by themselves. I’m in a better place now.

And I’m less concerned about forgiveness at this point. I think it will happen with time, but some of it may depend whether she will acknowledge what she did one day.

By the way, I wouldn’t advise punching a pitbull on the nose I know you were kidding, but if you’re ever in such a situation, I would rather smash something heavy against the dog’s head or grab its legs. Anyway, I’m drifting off topic lol

[Adam04]

By the way, I wouldn’t advise punching a pitbull on the nose I know you were kidding, but if you’re ever in such a situation, I would rather smash something heavy against the dog’s head or grab its legs. Anyway, I’m drifting off topic lol

no, not kidding... lol, one time I was face to face with a pitbull loose in the street and it was running towards me. All I could do was think fight or flight and I never backed down from any fights, so yes I would have literally punched the dog in the face, I was ready. We stared at each other for a minute with my fists balled up and he was probably 10 feet away. He never advanced further and I slowly backed away. I was in middle school then so I could have thought I was also invincible. Mostly highly ignorant and extremely lucky

To keep this on topic, I think if she does acknowledge, it will be a step in the right direction and may speed up forgiveness. Sounds like some of that process involves some sort of recognition and admission of guilt from her. I don't want to say things just because but I can imagine between God and I, forgiveness looks different than between two people. Forgiveness between two people may take the form of a dialogue, the offended lets the offender know he or she is forgiven and the other person typically acknowledges and says sorry. In a perfect world, the offender would be the first to say sorry and then the offended says no hard feelings, I forgive you and then people move on...

[kiro]

I like the pitbull challenge. If you punch it on the nose, at least do it with your weak hand because he’ll bite it. Then wrap your strong arm around its throat

Back to our topic, I like the perfect world scenario, but the more we discuss this topic the more I realize that I actually forgave her already. I don’t have bad feelings toward her anymore. Discussing it was my medicine. I think she did a bad choice and used bad judgment, but she is free. If she acknowledges it and apologizes, it will be good for her because she could then forgive herself and get back on the right path.

[kiro]

I just did something a little impulsive. I sent an email to STBXW and invited her over for a family gathering during this holiday time. My sister and her kids are visiting us for a week and am inviting other family members. My kids are spending all the holiday time with me till New Year to be with their cousins.

I felt bad for her not to spend any holiday time with her kids and family. So I sent her the email to tell her that we’ll accommodate if she wants some time alone with her kids and also invited her over for a family gathering. And I wished her a happy new year. She’ll probably decline the invitation anyway. If she doesn’t, it would be a nice surprise for the kids and an awkward one for the adults

It felt like the right thing to do during this time of holidays.

[Adam04]

I just did something a little impulsive. I sent an email to STBXW and invited her over for a family gathering during this holiday time. My sister and her kids are visiting us for a week and am inviting other family members. My kids are spending all the holiday time with me till New Year to be with their cousins.

I felt bad for her not to spend any holiday time with her kids and family. So I sent her the email to tell her that we’ll accommodate if she wants some time alone with her kids and also invited her over for a family gathering. And I wished her a happy new year. She’ll probably decline the invitation anyway. If she doesn’t, it would be a nice surprise for the kids and an awkward one for the adults

It felt like the right thing to do during this time of holidays.

It's the holidays, free pass on that. It's also about what you can handle. You're doing it for the kids and her. And a little for yourself?

I have a sister-in-law who D'd her H. They have 2 boys. She's been D'd for like 10+ years I think, but every holiday or vacation, they have been together for the kids. She'll mostly go over to his place. He's been remarried for a while now with another set of kids. The sister-in-law still goes over there and goes on vacation with them(with the H and his new W). Weird bunch. I think my W thinks this will happen to us.

Happy Holidays.