It isn't our job to forgive anything at all for another. It takes away another's higher power and it's between them and their higher power. Just as our forgiveness for ourselves is ours alone for us to manage. We aren't a higher power and can't be for another. Giving up the need to forgive releases us to love and also stops the blockages to connection.
What we think of them and what they think of us is personal to each and none of the others business.
So, give up the need to forgive, it truly won't release you. It's detachment that will do so and what will release you from revenge, bitterness and anger? Letting go. That allows you to move on and turn the other cheek.
The popular wisdom is that forgiveness releases and the popular wisdom is just that: a belief which can be unfounded. Forgiveness of self causes release after atonement, forgiveness of others binds us to their actions and pains inflicted on us. It is up to us to manage our reactions to the actions and do that which assists us in our growth. That is a big enough challenge on it's own.
However remembering is necessary for pause and self love. It is the new boundaries that we set that helps us to release our feelings, insecurity and makes us strong. The need to forgive is weak.
Forgiveness puts us one up on the other, it inhibits the Karma bus from acting. It creates a place where forgiveness is necessary and trust a requirement. Can they earn your trust back? What a difficult position you put yourself in determining if trust can be 'won' back. Let it go.
Have I forgiven the G? Absolutely not my job to do so, have I let go of my need to forgive? Absolutely. And it is the most releasing and healing thing of all, to be neutral and calm. Free of any negative poison, gone. Would I give the G any thought these days? Only in these pages where my story is written. I don't even block him on FB or any other way because I truly don't care if he or his little BIT haunt my SM (which they do) , It's truly freeing not to even be bothered. I recommend releasing yourself and being free of that need of forgiving. Instead observe if the atoning actions match the words. Not your job to punish, let WW higher power do that.
What is the opposite of love? It is indifference, it is letting go, it is moving on and not looking back. It is starting anew, afresh with a clean slate. That alone makes the returning wayward look to atone their actions. So if asked have you forgiven me? Say, that's not my job to do. That gives the wayward behaviour no get out at all, none. That holds the wayward to account in full. It is strong. Forgive yourself for everything connected, waywardness is the waywards choice in full, it holds them accountable for it in full with their own higher power.
For you that new start may mean WW, I doubt you will ever forget those dark days, they changed you. If your R2 is to have a chance then let WW forgive herself, do the work and atone. You don't need the Karma bus to run her over and to be in the driving seat. Be Meh about it all. If WW steps over your boundary then you enforce it and walk away and that is clear because you are strong. That can never be the same. You can observe but not absorb.
Detachment, fine if it works and ok if it doesn't.
And the choice is yours not the boys as to whether an R2 is in the offing. It is to be inappropriate to defer to them. It ìs YOUR choice. Just saying my 2c.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
V - firstly, it's great to see you back. Missed your input on so many things here.
I love your take on forgiveness. I personally find it very liberating to approach it that way and letting go of the need to forgive someone else for their actions, and rather focus on forgiving yourself.
You touched upon something that I'd love to explore and get your thoughts on it as well. Almost all the experiences here have a common thread of 'betrayal'. How do you start building trust with the other person in these cases? I know there is no such thing as a 100% guarantee that they won't do something like this again, but how can you get to a place of trust with the other person and create a new foundation and life and not having to look over your shoulder every time?
For me this is completely hypothetical and I won't get to this phase in my own sitch, but I'd like to get a better understanding of this just for my own personal growth and what I would need to do to create space to build trust.
Others chime in as well. I haven't seen much of an in-depth discussion on rebuilding trust and what that looks like. Thanks.
I am trekking to your thread if further discussion is needed so as not to hijack, but the essence is as follows, forgiveness is a personal action, belief and choice, like love. We choose these from our personal stance.
Trust is a behaviour rather than a choice. When we trust we allow others into our space and permit them to behave within closer boundaries. They are in our space.
Trust isn't absolute, I can trust someone with my cash but not with my heart. I may allow them to drive my child to school but not to cook my dinner. And that's ok. So I can trust WW to buy the groceries but not to see OM. It's because their behaviour is untrustworthy by experience or I anticipate it to be so.
Trust can vary depending on my knowledge, I find out today that teacher x has great exam results for students and I trust them for extra tuition for French, that's new information. I find out that broker A has gone insolvent so I don't trust them with my cash. New information and new levels of trust.
It's the other's behaviour and my response to it that determines trust. And it changes, it's an analogue response not a digital one, like a knob to turn on a stereo for sound. It can go up and down.
Next Trust and Love aren't linked. You can love someone and not trust them in a specific area. Similarly you can trust someone and not love them. I trust my butchers meat but I don't love him. You don't need love to trust and visa versa. So take the pressure off yourself, control is making someone 'earn' your trust, they can't do that and it's damaging. Instead examine their behaviour on the given issue. Drop the need for trust in order to love and visa versa. That holds even if someone says 'You don't trust me do you ?' . The answer is that's none of your business. What I think of you is mine. Simply answer 'are you trustworthy? Is your word good?' 'Are you doing what you say?'
Does it matter? I believe in transparency in M, although we are allowed our privacy on some things. And checking emails, phones etc is no way to live. Allowing checking is one thing but living needing to check is another. Do we need to trust? I say no, but we have to be good on our boundaries and verify. Then we apply consequences. Those consequences are reasonable and prestated. If you x then y is a boundary. That's reducing trust levels. If you chat to my WW then I will inform your W is a boundary. It's said in advance.
So how do you 'learn to trust after betrayal? You don't, not in any way. It's not a learned thing but an experience thing. Between two people, so it's how another behaves that makes them trustworthy and it can be tested. It can be verified, and I don't believe testing and verifying is snooping. It's common sense when experience tells you that your ex is gambling and they say they aren't to test that assertion. Over time verification becomes less and less needed. The old adage fool me once shame on you, fool me twice then I am a fool, fool me thrice shame on me is a good one.
And it's ok not to trust after betrayal, absolutely ok. No one should feel guilty for verifying, it's when verifying becomes a way of punishing and excessive it's an issue. Over verifying is damaging and it can be done subtly and unobtrusively.
And snooping is different from INTEL, I believe in knowing from operating from knowledge. Once you know you can never unknown. INTEL such as a PI is so valuable. Best 1800 euros I spent in the D on a PI, saved me a lot of settlement and allowed me to serve the G. INTEL assists in trust.
Those are my thoughts
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I have to admit, I’ve never really understood trust on the level that you do. In one post you were able to teach me more about trust that I have known for all these decades on the planet. You are absolutely correct. I cannot go through life chasing after every little bit of information about my XW like the news media.
I do have my rules though. Right now they are really important to me so that I can establish some way to know how serious things are on her end. It’s easy to say things, but harder to be consistent with them. I know eventually the rules have to change and disappear, but that’s OK. For now they are about proving to me that she can maintain the 180’s she did to come back to me. I think these kinds of rules are important when we are basically at a below-zero level of trust. I am not naive going into this. My eyes are wide open for red flags. My ears are open. I’m observing everything. I want to make the right decision.
V, you’re right about our boys not having a say in our R2, but we do have to keep their feelings in mind every step of the way. The challenge is that they are both highly uneasy about this, as they should be. We are taking things slow. It’s the only way this will work long term, if that’s what we want to do.
Journaling: We have been dating seriously now for a couple weeks. By seriously, I mean our friends and family know about it. We are doing the “normal” dating thing. Going on dates, chatting, etc. I think she was disappointed that there are so many things that I can’t trust her with, but she understands.
She is making a very serious effort to maintain my attention, which is something that was lacking during the majority of our MR. But like I said, it’s only been a couple weeks or whatever. Only time will tell if she continues to think I am the person she wants to be with for the rest of her life, as she does now. We’re in an infatuation period, I think... so of course she is going to tell me that I’m the perfect man for her. I can’t get too wrapped up into the flattery she is showering me with.
Christmas is coming up. I got her some gifts, but nothing extravagant or expensive. Kind of like the gifts you’d expect from a boyfriend of a couple weeks’ time. Lol. I plan on doing a little gift exchange between the boys as part of Christmas this year, but nothing that makes them feel pressure to be a family again.
Not sure what I’m doing for NYE though. I already have several invitations to NYE parties, so we’ll see how that plays out. I’m tempted to go to the parties as pre-existing plans and then watching XW’s reaction. Last NYE was when WW decided to show me that she was with OM with outward displays of their A. We both need to tread lightly, I think.
I have to admit, I am a little bit uneasy about R2 some days. It is mostly fear of the unknown and fear of being betrayed again. But hey! It’s only been a couple weeks.
Things I need to improve on are being less vindictive. When the topic of the A comes up, I often talk overly honestly and it leaves her crying. So it’s a touchy topic because I will say things like “cheaters don’t deserve any of my attention at all” without validating that I can see her efforts to atone for her sin. I am going to have to ease up soon, because like V said, my job is not to drive the karma bus. She’s already been hit with the karma bus, that much is apparent. When she complains about some ongoing logistic/financial issues with OM I just want to tell her to shut up about him, because that’s her problem and not mine. I don’t, of course. I just validate and then act uninterested or ask her what she is going to do about it. For the most part, I resist the urge to “save” her from herself. She has to do that on her own.
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
Joe, two things strike me from your post. The first is your comment that "cheaters don't deserve any of my attention at all." If you can't get over this, and stop saying it, and things like it, you might as well forget the possibility of reconciliation. The other is her talking about logistic/financial issues with OM. Can you gently suggest to her that this is not an appropriate to discuss with you, and please don't bring it up again?
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Yeah I say crap like that and it's just me being spiteful. It's stupid. I am having issues with my resentment. I also find myself pushing the envelope to see if she will just give up. It's petty, but sometimes it gets the best of me. I haven't done it for a couple days.
Doesn't bode well, but at least I know I'm doing it and I stop myself now.
It's usually triggered by her talking about OM in one way or another. I know removing the trigger doesn't solve the resentments I have bottled up, but I'll ask her not to talk about him while I sort this out.
Thanks Jim.
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
Thanks Jim, I hope you had a great Christmas! Ours was good.
Journaling: I am questioning whether or not I can do R2. I have no reasons to trust XW and I do not know if I will ever fully trust her again enough to make this R work. She has done everything I’ve asked, but it is still early on. I have no guarantees that she is not going to just go back to being WW again at some point. I worry that it’s a ticking time bomb.
Reasons to believe XW: She doesn’t gain anything from dating me. Dating me is hard due to the dynamics involved. She takes full responsibility for her A and shows remorse. She has agreed to all of my “second chance rules”. She told me that she wants a second chance with me because she didn’t really understand what she had in our MR. She claims I’m everything a man should be. She is taking measures to reconcile with my son. She wants to take things even slower than I do to make sure our kids are OK with us dating. She seems genuine, I think. She does not want to hurt her son again. She appears to really love me.
Reasons to quit R2: I don’t trust her enough. I am scared of getting hurt by her. I am scared of my kid getting hurt by her. I am scared of her kid getting hurt by her. In the past she cheated on me to get out of our MR. She tried using cheating to get out of the relationship she had with OM. it didn’t work, because OM is also a cheater, lol. I have a whole lot of resentment buried inside. I really don’t NEED to have her in my life. Does my XW even really understand what love means?
I know I love her. I just don’t know if that’s enough. It wasn’t enough last time. How can I be sure that she won’t revert to waywarding? I can’t be sure. Well, 2019 has got to be better than 2018 was right?
I guess I just need to take it one day at a time.
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
She wants to take things even slower than I do to make sure our kids are OK with us dating.
You might need to slow your roll Joe. Remember she has to earn another chance with you.
Originally Posted by Joe2017
In the past she cheated on me to get out of our MR. She tried using cheating to get out of the relationship she had with OM. it didn’t work, because OM is also a cheater, lol.
Big red flag. When things are good she'll be fine. What happens when inevitably things get rocky again down the road?
Is she in IC? If it was me that would be a must prior to recon.
