ovr, hey buddy! Thanks for the update. I see the part about AS saying WWs take a long time before they recognize what they were doing. I can vouch for that. My W and I have been piecing since last March, and it wasn't until last month when I talked to her on our long trip she showed real remorse. Even disgust at herself. I have to admit it touched me. But think about that. She was out of waywardness for 10 months!!!! And just now showing the remorse for what happened.
Hang in there buddy, it gets better.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I do think Ovr's sitch is different than yours Steve. His WW has been blantantly disrespectful in several ways (cheating, denying OM, yelling at him, hitting him with pillows, then blowing up his phone, then crying, then running back to OM, and all the drama, rinse and repeat) and it has taken Ovr quite a long time to draw up some boundaries. Steve, your sitch unfolded quickly and you immediately did not tolerate anything from her, in fact you have said you were the one that BD her. My concern for Ovr is that he has essentially taught her that it's okay to treat him that way. He has agreed (or seems he did) to reconcile and she has not even ended her A or provided proof of ending. In fact, she has continued to deny it's even an A. I do NOT think its possible to piece with an active A and I see that he is holding back progress by allowing get her back so prematurely. It shows extreme weakness.
Ovr, I worry about you. I know you are a very smart and caring person: I've read your thoughtful and intelligent posts to others. I don't think you are trying to take your own good advice. And, it's hard to follow what's happening with you because you tend to dip out of posting on your thread for weeks at a time. I don't think you are just taking a break because you share very little now and you used to share a lot of details often. I understand it can be hard! I get it! I also get the sense you may not want us to know things. Do you feel shame that you allow her to treat you so poorly? Do you feel stuck that you have now let her back and she hasn't even shown proof of ending her A? Do you walk on eggshells knowing she could run right back to him? It sounds as if you are waiting for her to be remorseful and looking for validation from others. But these other people did not take their WW back while in an active A.
I personally didn't allow my H back until he not only ended his A and showed proof, but also when he showed true remorse and desire to be with me. That's what I deserve and so do you! And yes, his remorse did increase down the road as he more grasped what he had done, that's natural, as the more time that passes they see things more clearly..... But you have to have a starting point first. I think you know that but are either scared or have low self esteem. So instead of biting the bullet and taking her back without conditions, why not turn to us here and ask what you should do? We can help but you have to slow down and follow the advice.
I hope you will stay with us here in this thread. Don't look at what others say about their WW taking a long time to be remorseful, because that reads as you making excuses for her. Sure, she may not be remorseful yet, but if she hasn't even done the work to start piecing, then none of that even matters. That work starts with her ending her A and offering you transparency. Please don't dodge this post, even if you don't to like it. We owe it to each other to be honest. I have been reading here for many years, well before I started an acct, and I can tell you that the posters that allowed their S back too soon ended up right back in the same sitch. We don't want that for you!
Blu
Last edited by BluWave; 01/19/1905:44 PM.
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
S, I just think your sitch is very different than his. Your timeline was extremely short (possibly the fastest on the boards) and she came back to you quickly. You also did not tolerate disrespectful/abusive/immature behavior. When a timeline is longer, as most of our timelines are, they become far more complex and we can make things slightly better or much worse, in how we respond and what we tolerate during the separation. I know I made my sitch far, far worse by being a mad woman. I feel like the advice Ovr needs is not telling him that yes, she could be remorseful down the road, but more so how he can require her treat him better now, with actions that is.
I'm really trying to understand what it is they are doing. Is she back in the home and they are piecing? Did she ever end her A? Is she remorseful at all or does she take any responsibility for what SHE has done to hurt the M? It's confusing to me that he says some things that suggest they are together (living together, at the lake, wearing rings, going to MC) but then she hasn't even admitted to an A, or ANY wrong doing, or possibly has a strong desire to even fix the M? Ovr, what is happening exactly? Because you disappear on us and it's still unclear. Are you living in limbo and taking her scraps and just don't know what to do now? Because we really CAN HELP you. I know we can. But you need to start with giving more info and allowing yourself to be vulnerable here. I think you know that somehthing is very wrong here, but perhaps you don't want us to know. I want to know. I want to help you. I hope you will let me....
Blu
Last edited by BluWave; 01/19/1906:21 PM.
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
She is back in the home. Truly, she never left the home, just packed bags for days at a time then dropped in for more clothes or stayed the night when she felt like it. Maybe that's a bit contradicting.
She has been in the MBR every night since the end of October. But she ran back to OM twice at the end of November and once right before Christmas. Her parents also still make excuses for her doing this. I told the inlaws on Thanksgiving that she ran back to the OM again. They went psycho asking me how I knew that. I told them I had a friend look, but really I looked at our car's app b/c it has GPS and maps showing when and where it goes. I asked the inlaws if they could keep this between us if I told them how I knew she was there, they agreed. But they lied to my face, b/c my wife told me they told her and asked why I'd send a certain friend to look. I told W why would you be there? It wouldn't matter if you didn't lie to me.
The inlaws and a couple of W's friends have been adamant in saying it's not an affair. This was never an issue until I finally used the word affair in May of last year and told W that I was going to sleep in the MBR again and that I was done sleeping in the guest bedroom. A month or two later, W and her friends or parents had come up with the saying that W and I were separated, and that it wasn't an affair. I reminded W that she began the EA at least a month before dropping the bomb on me and that even after the BD she was hanging out with me and going place and sleeping with me and having sex with me. I also reminded her that she never separated in any true sense: she never moved out, never separated finances, and never had a conversation about separating. And W has said repeatedly that she doesn't believe in divorce. Anyways, I'm done talking to the inlaws about anything of consequence.
W and her parents said, maybe 6 months ago, that Over has been mean to W for a long time, even since before getting married. When I finally got a little stronger I said, yes, and W made her vows knowing that - so it's not an excuse. W and the inlaws also try to justify W's affair by assuming that my mom had one too. I don't know if it's true or not, and really even if my mom did, it doesn't justify anyone else doing. W and her parents also try to compare me to my father. My father has been divorced 5 or 6 times and has at least 8 kids. He is older, stuck in his ways, and obviously not good at relationships. My mom was his last wife, and they were married for almost 17 years, with 3 kids. He is much worse than I've ever been to my W. He hit my mom at least once, yelled at her often, and treated her horribly. What my dad did is not the same as what I did. I've never shared that with W though.
In my early 20's, I was so adamant about being different than my dad. I had successful relationships where I treated women very well for the most part. When W and I started dating, things were great for the first year, but we did not relate well to each other because of our vastly different upbringings. However, our passion for each other always overcame our differences and fights. I've never fought with a girl in an R like I used to with my W when we were dating and married.
I also have an identical twin brother who I don't see or talk to anymore. He is very much like my dad, in that he has never had a less than stellar evaluation of how he treats people. My relationship with my brother ultimately ended over a very small amount of money. We tried a couple of times to be around each other, but we never fully got through it and the relationship is still broken. The last time I saw my brother was Memorial Day weekend at the lake where I screamed at him and my dad. My brother, dad, and I all bought a boat together right before I met my W. My brother stopped paying his share of it for no reason a couple years after we bought it, but my Dad would still let my brother use it. My dad did, and does, make excuses for my brother's poor behavior. He always wanted my brother to come around, and was scared that if he was too honesty with him, that my brother would not come around. NGS, anyone? So I'm knowing all of this, and am going the complete opposite way of my dad and brother. I'm concerned with being a good person to everyone I meet and trying to do the right thing in life, marriage, and everything really. Hopefully that's not too much of a tangent.
W sent OM a Snapchat message to break up (around Xmas) instead of calling him like I said to her, so that I could hear it. All I saw was a snapchat back from OM saying "F you". We have a GPS app to see where each other is whenever we want so that I know she isn't with OM. She doesn't know it, but her car also provides this info to me. When W came home on Christmas, she had been blowing up my phone for days and was crying and in tears wanting to be with me and was sorry and everything. But that remorse has faded. Do I discuss with W? Do I say nothing? Do I bring it up in MC? Who knows.....but I am tired of shackling who I am.
She basically still says she didn't do anything wrong, with a few caveats in there. But her behavior throughout everything tells a different story. I don't know how strong her desire is to fix things. I feel like it's still limbo, I'm definitely not comfortable sharing everything and being with her. But we hug and kiss goodbye every day. Things definitely aren't right, and I don't know what to do exactly. I've come a ways in not letting her treat me like crap IMO.
W is not yelling at me or hitting me or anything, things are much better than back in the summer. Blu, what is the work she needs to do, and how does that happen? We have the boundaries I laid out a couple pages ago.
Another truth nugget is that I'm afraid to go GAL and make plans without W. We both may be a bit codependent. She definitely is, and I am trying to accommodate her relationship expectations by not GAL. But it's also tough right now b/c I have a bunch of online training to complete by the end of the month and I have to sign a lease on office space for the new job by the end of the month. Anyways, fire more questions at me - I'm sure you'll have them. Here are some details, and I won't run off this time. I won't hide by abandoning my thread again. And I promise I'm not hiding by writing so extensively. Hell, maybe Sandi will love this!
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Thanks for sharing ovr. We all need to do our inner voyage to look for who we are. Your W needs too. She should be doing IC. It’s not healthy to evade the things we did. I agree with Blu here. Eyes open ovr, keep walking your road. Control expectations and keep DB. You need to be patient. A lot.
Stay strong there Ovr.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
S, I just think your sitch is very different than his. Your timeline was extremely short (possibly the fastest on the boards) and she came back to you quickly. You also did not tolerate disrespectful/abusive/immature behavior. When a timeline is longer, as most of our timelines are, they become far more complex and we can make things slightly better or much worse, in how we respond and what we tolerate during the separation. I know I made my sitch far, far worse by being a mad woman. I feel like the advice Ovr needs is not telling him that yes, she could be remorseful down the road, but more so how he can require her treat him better now, with actions that is.
I'm really trying to understand what it is they are doing. Is she back in the home and they are piecing? Did she ever end her A? Is she remorseful at all or does she take any responsibility for what SHE has done to hurt the M? It's confusing to me that he says some things that suggest they are together (living together, at the lake, wearing rings, going to MC) but then she hasn't even admitted to an A, or ANY wrong doing, or possibly has a strong desire to even fix the M? Ovr, what is happening exactly? Because you disappear on us and it's still unclear. Are you living in limbo and taking her scraps and just don't know what to do now? Because we really CAN HELP you. I know we can. But you need to start with giving more info and allowing yourself to be vulnerable here. I think you know that somehthing is very wrong here, but perhaps you don't want us to know. I want to know. I want to help you. I hope you will let me....
Blu
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was actually agreeing with AS that it takes a long time. Sometimes well into Ring.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve, I actually agree with you and AS that "true" remorse comes later, possibly many months or years, especially after they see things more clearly and begin to acknowledge how bad things were. I guess that's true for all of us; when we remove ourselves from a situation and reflect back on it, we can see it more objectively. My concern for Ovr is that his W is still in a wayward mindset and hasn't reached step one.
Ovr, thank you for the clarity. I'll admit, I'm not sure what the best advice is. Have you read Sandi's new post on piecing? When you read the list of conditions, where do you see your W in that list? Is she at all? Becuase I think the starting point of reconciliation is when your WW comes to you and shows vulnerability and wants to atone. That in my opinion is step one and cannot be skipped over.
It seems she is back physically, but there is still an element of denial about her part in this. That is why I said she still has a waywardness to her. Even if she's not currently with OM, she still hasn't owned up to her mistakes or that it was a mistake. My fear is also that she could run right back at any time. I think eventually you will tire of these games and you may even be the one to give up. That might be the point -- when she realizes she is loosing you -- that she is willing to commit herself to you and "do whatever it takes."
I think you have your work cut out for you here. Unfortunately the way things progressed, she has become accustomed to doing whatever she wants (disrespecting you) and knowing she can still have you there. I think it's going to be harder than if you had started out with firmer boundaries. My advice to you now would be to continue with the DB rules, the 180s and especially the GAL. I don't think R talks or MC will help at this point. If she throws a fit about it, you can tell her in a matter of fact way that you have been thinking a lot and you need more of a commitment from her first. Then you can end the convo and create some space. Less words are better than more! It's okay for her to feel frustrated and wonder what she needs to do. If she is committed to you, she will do the work. Does that feel like something you can do?
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I have read Sandi's post on piecing, obviously I was thinking to myself I'm not there. My W is definitely in denial over her part, and I fear that she may run back to OM anytime as well.
I wish I would have been thinking more clearly every time she came back and not jumped back into things so fast. I have created a negative pattern by doing that so that's not good. And yes, she is disrespectful. I think I reinforced a negative pattern Sunday on our way to breakfast at a restaurant. Something reminded her of a negative thing in our past, started a talk, and it was not good. She yelled at me again, so I turned around. Then I stopped the car in the neighborhood and we talked for a while, then went out to eat. I know I didn't handle that too well. And I even knew it right then and there, but now I need to have the strength to act.
I can keep up DB, my 180s, and get back to GAL. I'm ok with that. We have MC scheduled for tomorrow. I told her that if she was coming back we had to do MC (among other things), so if I back off it what will that say? But yes, I'm still weary of MC b/c of her lackluster commitment. On a positive for W, she is going back to her IC this week. At least she's trying to get better.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
