I am grateful I discovered this site...and the fact that so many of you are generous with your words and support. It's really been a game changer. Now I will try to answer the questions from Sandi's last post:
W had shown to inappropriate behavior prior to affair.
W quit job on her own accord. It was a very part time job...yes she has a career working full time elsewhere.
She didn't end the affair because she was caught. It was about 2 months after discovery. She has shown constant shame over herself with this affair. I think she knows ending it was the right thing to do. She's smart enough to see no future with him when she really stops and thinks about it. But her emotions have kept her justifying it. But, even though she says she ended it....she hasn't.
The rule I was referring to is the "no talk about marriage unless she starts it"...that combined with the whole pulling back and not believing what she says/does. As she continues to contact the OM and lie about it...I find it hard to stay quiet and let her get away with it. At what point do I say "ENOUGH LIES"? The longer I continue DBing and be patient...the more it feels like I'm letting her get away with whatever she wants. How do I "call the shots" and remain on the DB track?
Sandi - I truly appreciate your words and honesty. You don't need to step softly with me...I need to hear it and can take it. Your thoughts on the "playing happy family" and being "great actresses" are dead on. I need to always remember that. The more I do read and learn...the more I seem to be detatching from any certain outcome. I catch myself more and more thinking about a positive future without her. I guess thats good? But it does make me sad.
About a month ago after we had attended a couple of MC appts....I told her I had discovered another counselor in town that deals more specifically with affair/infidelity than the one we were seeing. Just last night she asked me to schedule an appt with the new one. Not sure what the takeaway is there...but I feel that MCing was useless until we deal with the affair head on. If a counselor better suited to help with that can help...I'll try.
R2C: I will work on less words and more eye contact. Good advice.
As she continues to contact the OM and lie about it...I find it hard to stay quiet and let her get away with it. At what point do I say "ENOUGH LIES"? The longer I continue DBing and be patient...the more it feels like I'm letting her get away with whatever she wants. How do I "call the shots" and remain on the DB track?
I like this: "Stop. We both know you are lying. When you are ready to speak the truth, I will listen." Turn and walk away
If you dig through my quotes thread, start with #3. You will find some very wise posters with great advise.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Thanks for answering my questions. It really helps in getting a clearer view.
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She's smart enough to see no future with him when she really stops and thinks about it. But her emotions have kept her justifying it. But, even though she says she ended it....she hasn't.
She has not ended her A?
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The rule I was referring to is the "no talk about marriage unless she starts it"...that combined with the whole pulling back and not believing what she says/does. As she continues to contact the OM and lie about it...I find it hard to stay quiet and let her get away with it. At what point do I say "ENOUGH LIES"? The longer I continue DBing and be patient...the more it feels like I'm letting her get away with whatever she wants. How do I "call the shots" and remain on the DB track?
Okay, gottcha. Well, let's talk about the rules, first. Clearly you read them with your situation in mind, which anyone would normally do. The list, and explanations with the rules were written, were from the view point of a recovering WW......which was me. It started with me typing this short list to a LBS who was a newcomer and had no idea which way to turn. So, I quickly typed up this list and posted it to him. Did I do a sufficient job at explaining them? No, I didn't. I wasn't trying to explain them. This was just suppose to be list of "do's and don'ts". They were passed around and became known as "Sandi's Rules" or some people refer to them as "The 180's". I was even shocked to see them on another website! (Gee, now I wish I had written a book of explanations! ) Oh well, I can always post to individuals who couldn't read my mind when I was listing the "rules". (Just kidding, that's my weird sense of humor showing out.)
Rule #15. "When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative".
This is really about the LBS who tries to keep the other spouse glued to them by pursuing conversations. This LBS will find anything to talk about b/c he sees it as an avenue to hold the other spouse closer. (Have you ever met someone who wouldn't shut up and go on and leave you along?) Even if the LBS is not the talkative type who pursues in conversations, the point is to not place emotional pressure on the spouse that wants out of the MR.
Here's the thing. You are in a situation like you've never experienced (I assume). What might have worked in previous situations where you kissed and made up...…..is going to bomb if you try it now. Almost everything your emotions are screaming to do......you have to do the opposite. You cannot operate from your emotions. They are NOT designed to think, they are designed to feel. So, to help you get to a place where you can operate from a calmer, more collected, organized, mindset.....you are welcome to follow these 37 tips of do's & don'ts. As you become more DB informed, you will need to think about a plan of action that is based on your personal standards, values, integrity, etc.
Now back to your quote: "As she continues to contact the OM and lie about it...I find it hard to stay quiet and let her get away with it. At what point do I say "ENOUGH LIES"? The longer I continue DBing and be patient...the more it feels like I'm letting her get away with whatever she wants. How do I "call the shots" and remain on the DB track?"
So, does your W know that you know she's still contacting OM? The rules are not about letting a wayward spouse get away with cheating. The point of where do you say, "Enough lies", comes in the form of setting personal boundaries. Have you read the link on Cadet's post? Personal boundaries are all about YOU. It's like having an invisible line or shield around you, protecting your feelings. Only you can protect your feelings, and only you decide what can or cannot cross that line to hurt you. If your boundary is not respected, then it's up to you to do something to protect yourself. If a stranger attacked you, you would fight back, run away, or call the police....something, right? That's kind of built in us to protect ourselves from violence. When it comes to those who are the closest to us, it gets more complicated, b/c we love them and we allow them to treat us badly.
Let's say for an example that one of your boundaries is: "I will not stay in a marriage of three"...……..or, "I will not stay in an open marriage". Okay, that boundary is probably based on your values, spiritual/religious beliefs, principles and standards, etc. Obviously, your W has compromised her vows, to say the least, and she is pushing your boundaries hard. Therefore, if you approach her and say, "I will not stay in an open marriage"......then what? What if she doesn't respect it? Then it's up to you to do some action that will protect yourself. You may have to leave her, even get a divorce, in order to protect yourself from the dishonor that's been inflicted. So, don't use a boundary as a threat or an ultimatum. You can't force her to do anything she doesn't want to do. She has a choice here. She can choose to continue contacting OM, or she can choose to honor your boundary. If she chooses not to honor it, then only YOU can do something. Not her, but you. You set the boundary, she violates it, so you have to backup your words. Understand? This is only one example, and I strongly caution you not to use it, unless you are fully prepared to end the M.
For now, I hope you won't do anything until you run it by here first. Newcomers jump into something before they fully understand, and make matters worse.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank so much, Sandi! Great explanations and advice.
I honestly didn't know you were the original author of the rules. I just assumed you were the "local expert" here on this site. You should have written a book!! I've seen them on so many other websites.
I have read the thread on boundaries...I struggle with this. I'd love to be able to tell her "I'm not interested in being with someone who lies and cheats on me...and if it continues, I'm gone". I not at a point that I'm confident I would follow thru with that YET...I do feel I'm getting closer to that point. That's why I continue to do my best to follow the rules and come here for advice.
I feel I'm pretty good at following the rules from a black and white standpoint...meaning I can follow them as written. I will go back in and take them one by one...and try to see my situation within each one and possible tweaks to them.
Question: My w has been saying that my attitude stinks lately. She says at times I'm borderline rude and pushing her away. Do you think that means that she has noticed a shift...or that I need to work on being nicer to her while following the rules?? I don't think I've been rude or had a bad attitude at all...I've just been a lot less talkative and more direct with short answers. She has also used the term "Mr. Independent" to describe me lately.
For example: This morning she asks me "do you think we will ever try to be intimate again?" My response was "I don't know" She said "that's your answer, thats it??" She knows my boundary about not being physical until I'm confident that the OM is out of the picture. I've been able to stick to it. She said she very much misses being close to me...and I did say that I miss it too. SHe then went on a speech about how she is trying so hard to end the affair...saying she hasn't seen him in weeks and she has said NO to every request from him to get together for weeks. I didn't say anything...she was almost arguing with herself about how hard it has been to back away from OM...and that she feels she deserves at least some credit for trying/doing better. I did my best to validate her feelings...and said that if she truly wants to work on saving our marriage...it has to be over. I did my best to validate her feelings...look her in eye...and using as few words as possible. In the end I reminded her that she asked for time & space to work thru this...and I have been giving her that. I said now it's me that is taking time & space to figure our what I want to do. Then I walked away. She left with her son to go shopping...I left the house to gal. She called just now to say they are on the way home...and asked other kid related questions...normal phone call.
I try not to dissect every conversation with her...but that is kind of a side effect of this board. I have benefited greatly from the others and suggestions on here...and it's a great place to journal. I find myself going back and re-reading my posts to remember exactly how situations happened. Nice tool for that.
I have been reading a lot of more sad posts on here as we navigated the holidays. My heart goes out to all of you who are struggling...and the holidays just amplify so much of those emotions. I for one am VERY glad that Christmas is over...and I'm actually looking forward to putting 2018 in the rearview. 2019 is going to be a much better year no matter what happens....either my w and I work to fix our marriage...or I decide to move on without her...and put this ugly chapter behind me. I'm ready...I think.
Keep moving forward. Keep reading. You are surviving temp checks. Just that. Keep applying DB rules, starting with: believe nothing that they say... she must keep working on herself, has she started? AP addiction takes long to stop. It takes time DC.
Stand strong there!
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
I'm going to be honest with you in that I think you are in a crucial point in your sitch where mistakes can cost you dearly. She is trying to manipulate you!!!!!! She's having an affair and she doesn't like your attitude wtf???? She's trying to control you with sex so do not give into your boundary.
She's trying so hard to end the affair. The poor baby. How about trying hard to save her marriage and making up for the damage and hurt she has done????
Your next moves better be from strength or you better fasten your seatbelt because you will be on a long painful ride like you have never felt before.
LH- As I re read your post. Can you tell me why you think I’m in a crucial point in my sitch? I see the manipulation but why is this point more crucial than other points? Help me understand.
She's testing you to see if you will allow her to cake eat. My guess is she doesn't know where she stands with OM so she's not ready to give you up yet. If she can manipulate you then she has time to see if there is a future with OM. Then on the flip side if you allow her to cake eat she will see you as weak and you will lose value in her eyes.
It is extremely difficult for newbies to show strength early on.
) Oh well, I can always post to individuals who couldn't read my mind when I was listing the "rules". (Just kidding, that's my weird sense of humor showing out.)