Since becoming a wife, has she always had male friends that sort of left you excluded from their friendship activity? How does she act about her phone? Does she guard it, lay it down face first, keep it glued to her everywhere she goes in the house? When texting, does she try to hide the message from you, turning the phone where you can't see what she is typing? When she receives a call or text, does she go to another room to take it, or turn where you can't see who is contacting her? Does she sleep with it? Do you ever look at her phone, pick it up when it rings, etc.? If so, does she try to take it from you before you see anything (considering you pick it up in her presence)?
Even if she sees this other guy and her as "just friends", she is so vulnerable for male attention, emotional closeness, and adoration, that that so-called friendship can shift gears quicker than snapping your fingers. He's in an unhappy M, too, so that increases the chances of an EA. And, let me tell ya...…..EA's are very serious, especially for the woman. If you are one of these men who say they aren't too worried about it, as long as it doesn't become a PA...…..then you aren't fully aware of the damage an EA can cause a MR. The OM may be in for kicks, or to feed his ego....or hoping it will lead to a PA, but it goes much deeper for the woman.
Does she get out much since the baby was born? How old is he now?
As for your thoughts about having to accept the OM's presence in your MR...……...no, you don't have to accept it. Anytime a spouse feels uncomfortable about a friendship the other spouse is pursuing....(or not pursuing)……..it should end the minute this is expressed to that spouse. And if that spouse chooses the friendship over the MR, then one of the spouses is way off track. Know what I mean? You are the man in this MR, the head of the home, and the protector. If you ask your W to end the contacts with OM, and she refuses, then she is giving more value to her relationship with OM......than her relationship with you. Now, if you were some unreasonable, jealous, controlling H who never approved of anyone that was her friend.....then I might question the motive. But, I don't get that impression from you.
You are a man who believes in doing what is morally right, and if you feel this "friendship" is becoming a threat to your MR, then you may need to consider addressing it. I don't know if others have already discussed it with you. I don't know if you have studied the link on setting boundaries. If you haven't, then I suggest you start reading it. Don't make any sudden moves. Just read it. That's all.
Here's the thing. If she can't have private friendships or male friendships that excludes you...……...then the same rule applies to your friendships. If she is uncomfortable about you being friends with someone and she wants you to end it...…….will you? Even your lifelong friend? If your W felt threatened or suspected some OW was getting too close for comfort...….would you drop the friend? You need to think about it carefully, before opening your mouth about your W's friendships. And, I'm certainly not accusing or comparing your friendships to an inappropriate friendship she might be having. You can't have a doubled standard, and that's what your W will try to hit you with, if you have female friendships that exclude her.
I’ve known of a good amount of her male friends since becoming married.
However, given her new career in a male-dominated field, I’ve been a bit more shut-out with respect to the men that she works with. I’ve met a number of the men she works with, but there have also been some that I just haven’t had the chance to meet, I guess (I know, sounds like big red flag).
She guards her phone and carries it around with her pretty much everywhere—but then again, I carry mine pretty much everywhere too, so I shouldn’t be too suspicious in that regard.
I have noticed her turning her phone more recently, but honestly I’ve been trying to not look—for me, I’m trying to make that part of detaching and not really caring about what she’s doing on her phone. She sleeps with it on her side of the bed, but I don’t believe it’s on her body. Like I said, I try not to look (I’ve been burned by that before, as I’ve mentioned in my first thread, I believe), but I never pick it up unless she asks me to do so.
I don’t think there is an EA, but I’ll refer to him as OM for simplicity’s sake:
OM is no-longer married (I think I mentioned that in a previous post). They met at a work training in DC, and they work in different regional offices here in SoCal. They could be ‘just friends,’ or he could be playing the long game. I found out he’s no longer married because I searched for him one night a few weeks ago after seeing a text from him come across my W’s phone at 10:45 p.m. (I know—taken 2x4s for that one on a previous thread, so no need to rehash that here).
A couple of years ago, we went to an outing / social event with some of her coworkers. One of them, upon seeing me, said “Oh, you must be [OM].” My blood pressure just about hit the roof then, and we had a conversation on the ride home and she was all apologetic. My big point was ‘so, why would these people believe that I was [OM]?’ I know, dredging up old memories.
Thing is, I’ve told her in the past that I’m not okay with her level of friendship with this guy. Early on, after they got back from the training and he was blowing up her phone, I will admit that I was all NGS and got pissy about it and she had to talk it out of me. But I told her to cool it—and it worked, for a bit. Until it didn’t.
I also told her some time ago that if she really, really needs this relationship for work—THEN USE YOUR WORK PHONE. She longed for a work phone so she wouldn’t miss out on work stuff despite my warning her that the Feds will own her a$$, and she got one. As much as I know, she doesn’t text OM the work phone—she uses her personal phone.
She also works for a federal agency that recently had an adultery scandal come to light after 2 employees had an affair exposed (as well as their attempts to allegedly undermine current POTUS) by having their work phones subpoenaed—these phones are government property and taxpayer-funded, so they have to be transparent. W has told me that whenever she wants to make snarky comments about anyone really (current POTUS or not), she will not use work communications to do it, because she doesn’t want that coming to light later, like what happened above.
Back in the spring, when she mentioned we should take a look at our phone bill to see who we text the most besides each other, I should have taken her up on it. Would have really been interesting. But I didn’t, because I didn’t really think it was relevant, and I do trust her. BTW, she holds the account for a cell phones—so the bill and all that info is in her name.
W gets out more now that she is back at work. YS is 3.5 months—she was home with him from birth until just after Christmas; OS is 6 years old.
I appreciate the fact that you don’t see me as unreasonably jealous or controlling—and I try not to be. But I asked her to cool it, she does not, and in time she effectively doubles down because she ‘needs’ the relationship. I know exactly what you are saying—that she could be off-track. That she very well could be prioritizing this relationship above me. That has bothered me a lot (though less so the last year or two), but I also wish(ed) that she would respect me as the man in the MR, head of the home, protector, and all that.
I do understand that she is vulnerable for male attention, emotional closeness, and adoration—but frankly, the same could be said for me, but with respect to women. Thing is, though—I don’t have other women blowing up my phone, despite my talk on previous posts. If anything, I try to keep really tight boundaries with other women in my life. I’m not especially chatty with women in my age range (25-40) at work, even though some of them are really great-looking and probably really great people. Some of it is by chance / circumstance—as a new teacher, I’ve spent the last few years pouring myself into my work to become a better teacher, and now it’s me trying to get work done so I can’t be more present at home. But some of this is intentional choice—I’m not going to trip myself up if I can help it and potentially get into an EA / PA. The only women at work whose #’s I have are my Dept. Chair (immediate supervisor), as well as a couple of current / former colleagues who have served as mentors. But once again, I don’t have too many digits (if any, I’d have to look) for female peers in my age range.
I mentioned this on a previous post, but I’ll say it again: I’ve effectively ‘dropped the rope’ emotionally with almost all of my female friends after W and I got married—some of it was growing out of touch, some of it was out of respect for our marriage vows. And this was all done by me—not at her urging. Except for one—a female friend (FF) I had from grad school, who is now YS’ baptismal sponsor / godmother. Thing is, when I spend time with FF, W is almost always with me, and when FF was in town for YS’ baptism a couple of weeks ago, WW and FF went out together, on outings and errands.
She’s a known quantity to W, and I’ve included W with FF, and I don’t believe FF is much of a threat. Though, in light of the current dynamics with W, it was really nice to talk with FF while she was here, and to have a grown-up mature conversation with a woman in my age range. I have often played the what-if game: if FF came into my life at a different time in my life, or if I found her more physically attractive, things may very well have turned out differently between the two of us (and I may not have needed to meet W in the first place). But, I really don’t find FF all that physically attractive, but we click well intellectually and spiritually, though we have different political worldviews, and for me, things are what they currently are.
But if W asked me to drop the rope with FF? As difficult as it would be, I probably would. Because I do value her and our MR.
I’m not really going to do anything about OM right now, although I wonder what would be the case for when / if we get to R’ing or piecing. That may be a topic for another day.
But you’re right about reading the post on boundaries.
She’s seemed more-or-less like herself today. She seemed pretty good on emotional investment today—asking me which rides I would ride at Knott’s Berry Farm (presumably later), and she asked me if I want her to look in the gift shop for a type of mustard (I really like mustard and spicy food).
I know I shouldn’t get too high or too low about this stuff—but man it’s stuff like this that reminds me of the woman that I married. There’s just so much that I’m not getting about this, and so much that I’m not getting about her.
She also asked me earlier tonight if I’ve given thought to when we could have our talk.
I said Thursday night, and that we could go out for a bit. She asked me for a second choice in case her mom (MIL) isn’t available—normally, I’m good about that sort of stuff, but I didn’t have one here, and I told her I’d have to think about that one.
Mon: 15 min stationary bike 30 push-ups 20 butterfly sit-ups
Took boys to park after running some errands (paying rent, going to bank, post office)
Tues: 20 min stationary bike 30 push-ups 25 butterfly sit-ups
W took both boys to her mom’s for OS’ dentist appt. on Wednesday. What did I do? Finished 2 student letters of recommendation. And then I GAL! Exercised, then went out to eat at Buffalo Wild Wings. Took in 2nd half of Sugar Bowl, and then watched most of Sixers / Clippers game. Burger, onion rings, 2 beers for dinner. It was amazing, and I stayed until the end of the Clippers game. Back home around 10:30. I felt like I was single, and it was great to be out and on my own schedule.
Wed: 20 min stationary bike 30 push-ups 25 butterfly sit-ups
Today in GAL: Confession in the AM—a local parish offers daily confession at 8:30 a.m., so I went to get right with God for the new year, but also so I could ask prayers / guidance for my W. I generally go to confession about every month or so. Went to Starbucks, had coffee / breakfast and graded for a little while, but was great to be out instead of being cooped up in the condo. Then, went to Target to pick up a couple pairs of athletic shorts, so I could have something decent to wear while working out. Most of my athletic shorts aren’t in great shape, and I’ve been overdue for upgrading them.
I also have all 3 of the books on my list: NMMNG, The Art of Seduction, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck—need to start reading them.
New Year’s Resolutions, FWIW:
Continue DB’ing and stay married (hopefully) Continue to keep my weight around 180 lbs. (about my weight in grad school) Keep working out (maybe mix in some running / swimming in addition to what I’ve been doing) Keep eating right / drinking more water Upgrade my clothes (using some Christmas money)—most of my clothing is from about 30 lbs ago, and it looks like it. Get shirts / pants / shorts that better fit me (to help with self-image and show self off). Also need some better shoes, and I may need to look into slimming down my dress shirts—they’re from about 10-15 lbs. ago, but I wonder if I need a slightly better fit. Will be kinda pricey, but will also help with body image and better reflect changes to my body (changes both accomplished and hoped-for)
I’m admittedly nervous about tomorrow’s ‘meeting’ with W. I know NO EXPECTATIONS and NO MIND-READING, but....my thoughts are all over the place.
W has been much more accessible to me recently, relatively speaking....she’s been more chatty with me, and she’s been big on bringing YS around (“what’s Daddy doing?”) while I’m making dinner or doing dishes (trying to keep self busy). Not sure what that is about. I sometimes wonder if she is temp-checking me hard. On Sunday, when we were at Knott’s Berry Farm, we crossed a railroad track in the park and there was a huge crush of people walking the other way. For a moment, W grabbed my arm as we made our way through the crowd. I felt both happy and sad at the same time—I know I’m not detached, but it just made me wonder of what was, and what could yet be.
Yesterday she and I talked about her joint financial disclosure (we list assets / debts, both individual and common)—it’s standard given the nature of her job, and we’ve done it every year for the last few years that she has been in her current position. So I’ll need to do my accounts, then she can do hers. We also talked about taxes—what it could be like for us given the revised tax laws, how we’ll figure out paying bills / rent while the shutdown continues and I’m the only one drawing a paycheck. She will eventually get back-pay—but it could very well be a while. She made the comment to me “we’ll get through this.” She also talked about officially starting a 529 savings plan for the boys for college / higher education.
I know: BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY. I hear these things, and to me these don’t sound like marks of a woman planning on leaving. I know, could very well just be lies.
I go back and forth: at the park earlier this week, I was pushing YS in his stroller, and the thought occurred to me that if she does decide to BD, that that could very well be the final wedding gift I give her. That I’ve given up a whole lot for her (and us) in our relationship, and that that could be the last, best thing that I do is to give her up. Sobering thought.
What I do know is that, no matter what, I want a wife. I don’t want a roommate, or a platonic female friendship—which is what it feels right now with W. I want from a woman love / affection / sex, and I want to give those to a woman, too—I know, in time. I also know I deserve a lot more than what she has given me for basically the last 10-12 months.
BTW, it looks like our ‘meeting’ will be pushed back until Friday. Praise God, I guess.
Some other thoughts.....
I know NO EXPECTATIONS and NO MIND-READING....and I could be totally wrong about this, but tossing these thoughts out in to the universe and out of my consciousness....
But I wonder if maybe she wants to talk about her outburst towards me and YS earlier last week—maybe she finally realizes that things aren’t totally right with her / us.
What’s been bouncing around my mind this most is: Or she could ask for a separation....tell me her intentions and then we actually do that when she gets back from her training at the end of this calendar year. I know it sounds stupid and ridiculous, but I know that WAS are hard to predict and harder to justify....Once she gets some clarity on her position and where she will be transferred to, that may give her clarity to actually go through with it. Of course if she pulls that, I could always go with ‘why wait....if you truly want out, I won’t stop you, starting now.’
When W and YS came back earlier this afternoon, W asked me “So, you just threw my laundry in the laundry basket?” I didn’t really respond to that....and it’s not like she has folded my laundry in a while anyway, so we just ignore the other’s laundry.
I hate to harp on this, but.....I really wonder if the IUD may be causing her some problems, and she may just not be aware or just not care. She has a copper IUD—and not the hormonal one that is essentially an abortifacient. Rather, this IUD is effectively a spermicide. I mean, I’m still not a fan, but I guess it’s preferable to the alternatives. Some effects of copper IUDs include heavier periods, as well as copper toxicity, which could really mess with her moods. I know I should take care when researching online, but I also saw that copper IUDs could potentially add to PPD and any sort of psychosis, and thus make things worse.
W asked me “So, you just threw my laundry in the laundry basket?” I didn’t really respond to that....and it’s not like she has folded my laundry in a while anyway, so we just ignore the other’s laundry.
H:"W, what do you suggest we should do when we find each others things left in the dryer?"
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
In the back of my mind, I’m just wondering and fearing that this Friday’s ‘chat’ may be what W originally alluded to back in October when she talked about how “when [YS] is in a better place” that she wants to talk about a ‘break’ or an S.
That maybe that now that YS is in a good place and is starting at an in-home day care this coming Monday, now is the time for her to explore that.
In the back of my mind, I’m just wondering and fearing that this Friday’s ‘chat’ may be what W originally alluded to back in October when she talked about how “when [YS] is in a better place” that she wants to talk about a ‘break’ or an S.
What are the top three (or more) worse case statements she can make to you? How are you planning on responding to each?
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
1.) There is OM, YS is not mine, AND she wants S / D (so, all of the above—affair, love child, she wants out) No considered response yet. This is for me the absolute worst-case scenario, and I talked about this one in an earlier post.
2.) She wants a ‘break’ or a S.
3.) She wants a D.
I’ve mentioned this elsewhere but can’t find it, and the original was from Steve—I’d say something like this in response to 2 and 3:
“It takes 2 to get married, but only one to leave or get divorced. I love you and I believe that what we have can be saved and fixed if we put the work in. That said, I’m not going to force you to stay. However, I’m not going to help you pursue this because I am morally opposed to S / D.”
I would also add, and I’ve seen these elsewhere (so not totally sure who to give credit to without doing some research):
“If a S / D would be the only thing that would make you truly happy, then I will not stand in your way. I’ll wait for the paperwork.” And “I’ll still sleep in the MBR, but you can sleep wherever you like.”
