I can't believe I am here, but here I am. Surreal but you already know that. Here are the particulars of my sitch that I think might be most important, but I will fill in any blanks of course:
I am 51 and my W is 39, together for 12 years and married for 8, two kids (7 & 4). We are both white collar pros with busy careers. Both Type A but W much more so - I have mellowed with age thankfully.
All was pretty solid in the M until after D(4) was born, when W began to find fault with my level of effort in co-parenting and began to ramp up the criticism. I stepped up my efforts, and tried to work with her on a plan to divide domestic duties. The result of my efforts to take some of the load off of W was just more criticism based on things not being done correctly or adequately in her view - everything from grocery shopping to paying the bills to wiping the counter to loading the dishwasher, always a complaint. As a result, she simply began taking over the running of the household and I let her.
That is not to say that I laid down on this without conflict. W's criticism was typically delivered with what Gottman calls a "hard" or "harsh" start, was often mean-spirited, nasty, sarcastic and belittling. I always reacted by defending myself in a strong way. My typical responses often included statements to W that "it's not necessarily what you're saying, it's your tone", "if you attack me like this how do you expect me to react", "it seems like you're just trying to start a fight", "are you just trying to make me feel bad about myself" and "do you think this is how spouses should talk to each other?" Things were so bad when my D(4) was an infant that I told W I could not take it anymore, that she needed professional help to address her nastiness, and that I could not go on like this. Within a week or so later I cooled, I told her I loved her, did not want a D but that she had to tone down her criticism in a major way.
I had seen glimpses of the nasty part of her personality while we were dating but it was few and far between and not directed at me. After she started it with me, I had many subtle exchanges with her parents and siblings and unequivocally confirmed that she has always had a major mean streak. One of her best friends gave me the ol "good for you for not taking her s___t". Getting this information made me feel better that I was not imagining things but also made me feel bad that I was now in deep with this person. I was pretty unhappy.
With two very young kids I could not imagine not being there every day and night and I took D off the table. My "strategy" was to keep standing up for myself and counterpunch to stop the attacks. I withdrew emotionally and physically in the process. I am Alpha and went overboard with it, crossing the line and being a jerk, feeling that I was in a power struggle for who was top dog in the M. I also was conditioned to receive criticism constantly, so when I came home from work I was just waiting for the first strike to come my way from W, and was ready for a fight. After awhile, I began to hear criticism in many benign statements from W, where "did you wipe the table down" sounded like "why haven't you wiped the table down yet?" I would get defensive in those moments as well.
Another thing that was going on was a blame-game by the W that I could not understand. If I was driving her car and something went wrong with it, it was my fault, as if I had caused it. If the computer crashed while I was using it, it was my "fault" it happened. I "must have done something" to cause the problem. Very very frustrating.
All this is not to say I am perfect. I have read the Must Be This Tall to Ride blog and the descriptions of husbands who drop the ball in many ways does fit me to a degree. I am not sure how much I can attribute my shortcomings to me withdrawing from the M due to the criticism versus other causes. Regardless of cause the W would say she runs the household and carries the vast weight of responsibilities for the kids, that I don't appreciate her or her efforts, that I am aloof and act like a jerk, that I am not attracted to her and don't even like her.
About 2 years ago I decided I really wanted to reconnect and get the M on track, but could not seem to get there on my own. We have had very limited sex since D(4) and I tried to ramp that up with little success. While I was struggling with how to try and reboot the M, I believe W was moving in the opposite direction and checking out. She had built up a wall and so had I, and I was stumbling around trying to find a way through 2 walls. W stated she was not happy and I said I wanted to make it work, but there is little doubt my efforts were for the most part pretty weak.
In 10/18 she told me ILYBINILWY, she saw no possible future for us, that when she makes up her mind that's it, that any efforts would be too little too late, no interest in MC, and D was happening. I did not cry/beg/plead but expressed my surprise even though things had not been good. W was incredulous that I was surprised. W states we are just roommates at this point.
Now that we are through the holidays we have started IHS and W is intent on moving as quickly as possible with property settlement, custody issues and finalizing D. My state is no fault with a 6 month timeline. Our interactions are very civil so far, but I can often feel contempt oozing from her pores. Not a very good feeling at all. I am very cool, calm, and going about my business, and advising W that I need time to come up with my plan for my future in light of the BD. She wants to get it done ASAP and told me not to try and drag it out with the hope that she will change her mind because it's not gonna happen.
GAL is no problem, I have always had one. For a guy who typically has it together and has a good game, I am pretty lost right now on what to do at the moment though. I have spent weeks reading this forum and it is so great, so many awesome people here with insight, but I just can't seem to fashion a plan for myself. I suppose the biggest problems I see is that I do not have NGS, no begging, no overpursuit, none of those types of common first-line issues that many have to immediately correct. I am the opposite, and so for 180 purposes I am really really lost. Giving the W attention, compliments, engaging in long meaningful discussions, even flirting, these would be 180's at this point but I'm not sure that's the way to go. Being aloof, overly mysterious and detached, short businesslike conversations, etc. would just be more of the same. And GAL is actually more of the same too. I feel like I have a major dilemma here in terms of what to do given who I have been in the relationship. I would love and appreciate any ideas in this regard, because I am floundering a bit here. In the interim I have been moderately friendly, cool and a bit withdrawn, which I am not sure is helping me or hurting me.
I know the overarching question may be do I even want a R with this woman, and I think right now the answer is yes I would like to get into MC and see what we might have. At least get to that point and see.
Regarding EA/PA/OM, of course I have my suspicions and I have snooped with no evidence. W denies but she would not admit now anyway. I can go full bore investigation as I have the resources, and if the good people here think that's the way to go I would look into it. I understand there may be a different play on a WW versus a WAW where no A is happening. Preferably I would come up with a gameplan that could be undertaken regardless of the sitch there.
Thanks for reading, and I'll answer any questions or give any additional details that might be helpful. Sorry to ramble but I just have to say that what is killing me most is the thought of my poor kids having their family blown up, it is like someone is tearing my insides out of my body. I have taken some big shots in my life and if it was just me, no prob, but this is my kids' life too. Thanks for any insight and guidance, very very much appreciated.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Well.... you have spent 4yr in a tug of war that would be emotionally exhausting and draining on anyone. While its very impressive that you haven't begged or pleaded with your W you are still reacting emotionally to having the rug pulled out from under you. And, like anyone who fell off a boat into the water unprepared it's your instinct to grab and hold on to anything to keep yourself afloat.
You will get great advice here from lots of people who have been there and reached the other side whether it be with there M or moving beyond it. But, the best gift you can give yourself is to do the homework. REALLY... don't read through it and make a minor mental note. Sit down, write it out, say it out, follow up and revamp. And, keep doing the homework.
The very first thing you have to accept is that you can only change yourself. That's it.
You can decide how you want to interact with W. What's acceptable... what your expectations are, your boundaries, etc. What if you W never changes? What if the mean nasty person that everyone else including yourself has seen is who your W is??? Is that acceptable you to??? Don't expect because you change your W will change... Yes, sometimes it happens. When you begin to validate to her feelings rather than reacting negatively to her negative energy that over time your W may change as well but you cannot force her to change.
What you will find here is support to help you not to respond to triggers, how to guide interactions for a positive outcome but not necessarily a recon. This is not a sprint but a marathon!
Do the reading cadet linked. REad KC's words carefully. Good stuff in there!
180s and GAL is FOR YOU. NOT to try to save your MR. Saving your MR is out of your hands. You could do everything right and your W could still decide to fly the coop. DO NOT FOCUS ON HER. Focus on you, just like KC said. 180s aren't 180s to save your MR, they are 180s to be the best Gekko you can be. 180s are for your next relationship because your current one is OVER. All of the dynamics of your old MR you described should never be allowed into a new MR, whether that is with your W or someone new.
I too already was GAL prior to BD. Doubledown on it. Every minute you are not with your kids, you are BUSY BUSY BUSY. Do not fall into the trap we all do: "I was distant before BD, a 180 would be to be all over her." You can still be present, attentive, kind, engaged, fulfilled, pleased, happy WHEN you interact with her. But your goal should be as little interaction with her as possible.
SO many newbies get this wrong: It is about QUALITY of interaction....not QUANTITY. Do not chase her. She will run. The goal is to be a new man, to be mysterious. To pique her interest. But here is the rub....the minute she detects you are doing all this to manipulate her, it will fail. It will not work. So make sure you are only doing this for you. For your healing.
GAL. 180s. Detach. Become the best Gekko you can be. And let everything else fall into place.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thank you for the links Cadet, having lurked here a bit I have already started with the reading, including working my way through DR, but I have a ways to go, including re-reads and then more re-reads. There is a lot to learn, and process, and I am sure some of it will not sink in right away. I am committed to the education.
Thank you KitCat. I could not get past the first line of your post without choking up, I have not envisioned the "tug-of'war" analogy but you pegged it right from the start. I feel battle-scarred. I believe the true Gekko, the one who was present during the first half of my relationship and in my life before, is inside of me but has been covered over with a callous. I'm not sure how deep it goes yet, I hope my DNA has not changed. I think not, but sometimes it feels that way.
Regarding my W, there is no future from my perspective if the toxic, aggressive, critical mean-spirited portion of her is not exorcised or at least toned down massively, much like in the first part of our M when it was noticed but not a frequent thing. I wonder about my ability to defuse it as opposed to exacerbate it, and wonder if my breaking the cycle of criticism-defensiveness-counterattack-stonewalling by not getting defensive and striking back would be enough. I think those may be issues for down the road, if it comes to that. For now I will be doing my homework as you say. And avoiding being triggered - I have done really well with that since BD - staying calm, very in control of emotions, and when appropriate not even responding to her veiled jabs.
My progression in the "jab-response" department has morphed over time from strong defensiveness/striking back, and instead I started using a sarcastic retort to W where I would respond to a jab with - "oh thanks, you're so sweet!" , or "you really know how to make a guy feel good about himself!" or "gosh you're right, I am so inept that I can't even wipe a counter down properly, what a loser". I have moved away from the heavier sarcasm and now it's just a smile, or completely ignoring the jab, or at most a less sarcastic humourous self-deprecation reply like "I'm thinking of signing up for that 2 day vaccuming seminar at Bed Bath & Beyond". I feel like I'm getting better at avoiding the triggers but any thoughts on how I am doing now or other ideas would be most appreciated.
Steve thank you for the input regarding the trap of the distant H becoming a pursuer as a 180, it technically is a 180 but I see the problem and I think you are right. I can't say that I'm not still concerned that W will eventually say I was just more of the same and never showed her how much I wanted her, but I can feel that what she really wants now is space in the R and the house and to just be done with me. So standing down for the most part surely appears to be the right move, and I am pretty good at that already so that is not a big challenge.
The bigger challenge is to "be present, attentive, kind, engaged, fulfilled, pleased, happy" as you say Steve, during our interactions. I know you are right. Doing this with someone who wants out NOW, who wants that ring off her finger and to be done ASAP, is tough stuff. There are moments when I think I am nailing it Steve, and then moments where I avoid eye contact and come across as detached (not in the DB sense) and I feel like at the latter times the W sees and feels this and thinks "more of the same" and that she is right to D. It is so damn hard to find the right move from day to day, moment to moment.
I have little doubt I will eventually emerge as an even better version of my prior self, but the issue is showing the full package to the W may be counterproductive in the sense that the old true me inside of the recent "MR me" might typically do or say things that run counter with how to deal with W in this circumstance - aka flirting, subtle touches, well-placed authentic compliments, thoughtful acts, etc. I feel like I may have to filter the "real me" and not be authentic to him to avoid making the wrong move with the W. Does this make any sense? How can I really be the me I want to get back to? I feel like I need to address this and get my head screwed on right. It seems like something has to give. Steve you say quality over quantity regarding interaction and that really hits home, thank you for that. I just need to work on what is quality for now, what to show and not to show. A work in progress.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I am 51. Went through my Divorce about 10 years ago. Dated X 6 years, married for 12. Three kids (5,7,9 at the time). I have joint custody and I am now with a woman 9 years younger.
Gekko, I've heard of this happening but it's kind of a role-reversal with you two. Normally it's the man who is on his best behavior during dating and turns into a passive/aggressive sarcastic ahole after M. In your case it sounds like that's your W. I guess my first question to you is do you really want back into that M? It sounds miserable. No matter how hard you try she is just verbally tearing you down at every opportunity, and now according to friends and family she has ALWAYS been that way. I think the best you can hope for in recon is more of the same. Is that really what you want?
My advice would be to pull back, detach, get out and GAL. Leave her alone. She may want to recon down the road, but if she does I would demand she go through intensive IC and MC first.
You mentioned you have GAL activities, what are they?
.....was just more criticism based on things not being done correctly or adequately in her view - everything from grocery shopping to paying the bills to wiping the counter to loading the dishwasher, always a complaint. As a result, she simply began taking over the running of the household and I let her.
Nothing is ever good enough. I lived that. Load the dishwasher and she complains that you put the forks with the spoons. The blue plates can't go next to the yellow plates.
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I always reacted by defending myself in a strong way.
Do a 180 here. Stop defending yourself.
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With two very young kids I could not imagine not being there every day and night
Another 180. Change your mindset that you will pull 50% of the parenting 50% of the time.
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I am Alpha. I did not cry/beg/plead but expressed my surprise even though things had not been good.
Thank god.
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crossing the line and being a jerk,
180 the jerk behavior. Treat her like a hostess at a restaurant or a clerk at a hotel.
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power struggle
180 here and "Drop the rope". No more power struggle.
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W would say she runs the household and carries the vast weight of responsibilities for the kids, that I don't appreciate her or her efforts, that I am aloof and act like a jerk, that I am not attracted to her and don't even like her.
180. Start using words of affirmation. She will get angry. Do not let her anger deter you.
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we have started IHS
Hopefully you are in the master bedroom. If not, go back in tonight. You are alpha and sleep wherever you want.
H:"W, I decided I like the MBR. You are free to sleep where ever you want"
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W is intent on moving as quickly as possible with property settlement, custody issues and finalizing D
. Do not stand in her way. Agree with her. this is the best form of validation. "I agree, this is not working for me either. "
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My state is no fault with a 6 month timeline.
A lot can change in 6 months. You can make significant personal growth changes during this time.
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She wants to get it done ASAP and told me not to try and drag it out with the hope that she will change her mind because it's not gonna happen.
Agree with her. "I also want to get through this as fast as possible"
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GAL is no problem, I have always had one. For a guy who typically has it together and has a good game, I am pretty lost right now on what to do at the moment though.
I believe Steve said double down on this. I cut back on my GAL and became supper dad. Enjoy every minute with kids. I would GAL when the kids were not home.
"Immerse yourself into your kids bubble. Stay out of wife's bubble. Let wife come into your bubble."
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Giving the W attention, compliments, engaging in long meaningful discussions, even flirting, these would be 180's at this point but I'm not sure that's the way to go.
Not yet. You can test the compliments and the flirting, but I would do some intel gathering to see if their is OM. As long as you can handle the info you find. Never reveal your sources of intel. Never reveal WHAT you know, just that you do know.
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Being aloof, overly mysterious and detached, short businesslike conversations, etc. would just be more of the same.
180 these. Be present when she engages you. Listen to understand. Do not argue. Test things and she if she responds different. You change the way you interact, forces a change in her response. Maybe not right away.
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I know the overarching question may be do I even want a R with this woman, and I think right now the answer is yes I would like to get into MC and see what we might have. At least get to that point and see.
Timing is way off for MC. W has to be begging you to take her back, and MC will be one fo your conditions. This is way in the future.
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Regarding EA/PA/OM, of course I have my suspicions and I have snooped with no evidence. W denies but she would not admit now anyway. I can go full bore investigation as I have the resources, and if the good people here think that's the way to go I would look into it.
Most suggest that you just assume there is and respond accordingly. Tarzan never lets go of one vine until he has a good grip on the next one.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
"Read as many post by coach as you can. Start here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224"
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Thanks R2C. Great thread link. Overall I am strong in the confidence department but think that W has lost respect due to her carrying the domestic load on many fronts - runs the kids lives, groceries, playdates, Dr. appointments, etc while also working. I definitely participate to a lesser degree and feel little credit is given however.
I not only survived but thrived into my late 30's before I even knew W existed - homeowner, nice cars, vacations, great career, financially secure, etc - which I am certain was attractive to her and many others - but get into a M and have a few kids and all of sudden I can't cook a pot of rice without supervision. Just so weird.
The irony is I was capable and willing to be more involved domestically but my apparent inability to do things sufficiently led to her just taking over, and I let it happen. W has said it is not so much that she carries the load, but that she felt I did not appreciate it. I probably didn't show her that enough, guilty as charged. That's a 180 now - validation of her efforts. I'm sure I didn't validate in the past due to being annoyed that she felt she could handle everything in a superior fashion.
Another point that may be key - after kid 1 came along I adjusted my mentality on career and decided to maintain cruising altitude (still pretty high) instead of continuing to ascend. I had chased $$ for years prior, and eventually found that the pay increases provided diminished returns on overall happiness and I wanted better balance and time for the kids. Still work 50 hrs a week anyway with great income but we live a large life in a very expensive area and I could not fund the W as a SAHM - I feel she may resent me for that. W has a great career and she is doing what I was doing at her age - still ascending and focused on $$, a very money motivated lady who now out-earns me. Could be another source of lack of respect.
Physically I still look really good, well-dressed, zero weight gain, but far fewer gym days and less healthy eating. Since BD I am back in the gym 3x week and back on with better eating habits, feels great but again maybe some lost respect in those departments over the past 4-5 years.
I suppose if she respected me and was attracted to me I would not be here, so this is another area to work on. Thanks R2C!
