I wouldn't play the time game. I mean, if she was just dictating the when/where with NO notice I see it, and that's fair. But if you two have a previously agreed upon time/location that is mutually agreeable I don't think that's the right place for what you're trying to make a "power move".
The dressing nice, validating, 2 cars and not making it overly long are all good pieces IMO. You're part of the conversation too, so if you feel it's really getting dragged on and you're not making progress you can say, "I think we've both covered some important topics here, and I'm not sure that at this point we have anything else to add. Let's call it a day for now". You should let her do most of the talking, but you do have some control of the meeting and its duration.
An R talk does not need to last a long time. Time is not your friend during an R talk.
I agree.
Your time is valuable. You have more important thing to do than spend time with someone who is firing you as their spouse.
This is the mind set: "I get it. It is clear to me now. You are not attracted to me. I do not want to be with a woman who is not attracted to me. I have more important things to do, so lets get this task done as quickly and efficiently as possible."
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I agree with Joe and Yail—not gonna play the time game, and time is not exactly my friend in this scenario.
Dress nice, separate cars, and keep it as brief as possible. Let her talk, but keep in control of meeting and duration, as well as validate.
I’ll keep in mind vocal tonality, as well as body language, and I’ll read those two posts—I’ve glanced at them before. I’m working on confidence (but I know my approach could be amateurish), and it’s part of my 180s. I’ve also been working on healthy lifestyle / grooming / dress for a while, so I feel like there has been some improvement, but I also know that there are others are in which I can improve. I can’t beat myself up too much—we are all works in progress.
I just feel like there is a whole range of outcomes for this—some better than others. What she told me back in the fall about a break or an S haunts me, but it also seems to me like her recent words / actions don’t totally support that. I know, I know—BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY, and ONLY HALF OF WHAT THEY DO.
I know that I’m mind-reading and engaging in expectations, but I feel like I need to be prepared for a number of things to happen (and some of these could combine):
*She wants to call off the cold-war between us, and start the new year right, especially with her being gone for 3 months starting this fall.
*“Something’s wrong with you / gotten into you recently. What’s wrong?”
*“Something’s wrong with us” (and she either wants to fix it, or S / D).
*“Why have you not been touching me / asking for sex / saying ILY, etc. recently?”
*“I’m not happy, and here’s why blah blah blah blah” (and then launches into a whole bunch of ‘reasons’)
*”You know what—I’m sorry. I’m sorry for being so angry with you, blaming you for this pregnancy and so withdrawn and not showing you love / sex / affection / whatever, and I’ve been really unfair towards you” (UNLIKELY AS H***, but it’s certainly possible). [For me, this is the best possible outcome, along with calling off the cold war between us.]
*“I want a S—after I come back from training in December / January.” Me: “I understand. But I also want to be with someone who wants to be with me. Let’s just get this started now.”
*“I want a S / D.”
*And, of course, my worst-case outcome as mentioned earlier, as unlikely as it is.
You do understand, do you not, that women use codes when they speak. And we - men are totally ignorant to this fact. For instance she might say that she needs time to find herself, well that is just code for I want to be free to sleep around and I've got someone on speed dial.
So believe not any BS of "finding herself"...
Stay strong buddy, try not to over analyze everything.
Hey Bo, I'm trying to get caught up after my nice, long vacation I just speed read through this thread and will hit a few high points:
First it sounds like you are doing pretty well over all and that your attitude is good, so stick with it!
The pending talk: My first observation is that you are devoting way too much time to all the different scenarios that might come up. This tells me you are far too attached to her. I can't tell you how many times an LBS has come here freaking out because their WAS "wants to have a talk this Friday" and they spend days guessing what she's going to say and what their response will be, and then the Big Day comes and guess what, the WAS seemingly forgets she ever suggested a talk. You just have one goal- remove all pressure. You are kind of trying but you are kind of sabotaging yourself too. I think you're finding reasons to be all up in her business and pretending you have to do it. Just leave her alone! She wants time and space, give it to her. When you can effectively remove all pressure then the R talks completely stop as does any talk of S or D. We've seen it happen over and over again. Even if you do have the talk, just keep in mind it is only a reflection of how she feels at that moment in time. She may say "we're done, it's over, I'm moving on" and then a few months later she's begging to recon. Even the most serious talk is just a reflection of her fleeting feelings, so don't agree/disagree just nod and validate.
Validation: Sandi and a couple others touched on it, but your validation needs some finesse. "I'm sorry you feel that way" is technically validation, but it's not necessarily good or effective validation. Kudos to you for validating at all, that is much better than pushing her buttons. But I think you're ready for chapter 2! Validating is first seeking to understand her feelings, and second offering affirmations that her feelings are valid. So for example:
- "You always do what you want and I never get to go run or anything!" - "It sounds like you feel I'm ignoring your needs to get out and exercise, is that how you feel?" - "Yes it's very frustrating!" - "So you are frustrated because you feel I'm ignoring you, I can understand why you feel that way, I will work on that."
Just saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" may work at first, but if you just keep saying that no matter what she is saying then it starts to sound dismissive. Your goal is to make her feel like you are really listening to her.
You commented on the butterfly S/U's helping your back and yes you are quite right, they work your core much more then if you hook your feet under something (those type work your quads a lot more). If and when you join a gym then try GHD situps (in a rig), they work wonders for your lower back/ core strength too.
Some days I wonder how together I am about all this, so glad to hear I'm making some progress. Trying to focus on PMA and GAL as much as I can.
You're correct in that I'm probably overthinking all this--I should charge W rent for how much she has been in my head about this.
Believe it or not, I've been doing my level best to stay the F away from her as much as possible--to give her that space but also perhaps give her a taste of what it would actually look like. W grabbed my arm at Knott's Berry Farm, W has been bringing YS around 'to see what Daddy is up to.' I've been in the living room doing some random school work, reading, or crashing these forums. Last 2 nights she was here, she went to sleep soon after I said goodnight and I went to sleep.
I tend to live in my head at times and overanalyze--I sometimes want to plan out as many outcomes as possible so I'm prepared mentally. Even if she does say she wants S / D, I also know that that is not necessarily the end, even though it would probably feel like it at the time. I know that she is fatigued, and probably at least somewhat PPD, and that her moods and emotions can be variable, and will change.
If she is so concerned about how our relationship affects the kids, what exactly does she think S / D will do then? I know the 'kids are resilient' trope--but it would be one thing if I was unfaithful or abusive. It's totally another to intentionally inflict S / D because "Mommy is sad."
Validation: Sandi and a couple others touched on it, but your validation needs some finesse. "I'm sorry you feel that way" is technically validation, but it's not necessarily good or effective validation. Kudos to you for validating at all, that is much better than pushing her buttons. But I think you're ready for chapter 2! Validating is first seeking to understand her feelings, and second offering affirmations that her feelings are valid. So for example:
- "You always do what you want and I never get to go run or anything!" - "It sounds like you feel I'm ignoring your needs to get out and exercise, is that how you feel?" - "Yes it's very frustrating!" - "So you are frustrated because you feel I'm ignoring you, I can understand why you feel that way, I will work on that."
Just saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" may work at first, but if you just keep saying that no matter what she is saying then it starts to sound dismissive. Your goal is to make her feel like you are really listening to her.
Yeah, the validation part definitely needs some finesse. I’m trying more of the “you know what, you’re right,” or “that’s unfortunate,” or I’m trying to repeat the last thing she said as a question. I’ve basically dropped “sorry you feel that way” for the time being.
“Did I tell you that my psychiatrist is leaving private practice?”
Me: Huh?
I was so confused, but as she started to talk it out, I get a sense where she was going with that.
I’m not sure the last time she saw her therapist (damned if I know), but she also sees a psychiatrist who writes her an Rx for ADD meds. She likes going to see her once every 3 months and getting the 90-day Rx, but who knows what the next person will bring.
I should charge W rent for how much she has been in my head about this.
Hahaha! Well that is a normal part of it. It'll diminish over time.
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Believe it or not, I've been doing my level best to stay the F away from her as much as possible--to give her that space...
Good!
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...but also perhaps give her a taste of what it would actually look like.
Try to put that out of your head because that is an expectation. "I'm doing X expecting Y to happen." Expectations never go the way you think they will because WAS's behave in completely unpredictable ways. Give her time and space because it's what she needs and it's what you need. But have zero expectations that it'll change anything, because it won't, at least in the short term.
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I tend to live in my head at times and overanalyze--I sometimes want to plan out as many outcomes as possible so I'm prepared mentally.
Yeah I get that. I think we all spend a lot of time doing that early on. The problem is once your W goes WAS then so does rational behavior. There is really no predicting what she will say, or even if the talk will happen at all. Like I said before I've seen this happen many times where the LBS is counting down the days and then will pop in the day after only to say the WAS never mentioned it and acted like they didn't know anything about a "big talk". I was just reading this post from Joe2017, if you're not up on his sitch his ex is trying to recon with him:
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She asked me recently why she doesn’t remember the same things I remember or our kids remember. She said it’s all fuzzy to her. She doesn’t remember A LOT, and some of the things she remembers is wildly different than reality. She can’t explain why she left me for an absolute moron who was 10 years older with no job and ED. She doesn’t remember any gaslighting at all. She doesn’t remember the truly heartfelt conversation we had on the last night that I ever spent in my own home before I moved out and the OM moved in. But she does remember the absolutely hateful verbiage she used to insult me. She remembers trying her best to rob me of my masculinity and self-esteem using the most rancid behavior known to humanity. She remembers telling her son that he could not call me Dad anymore. She just can’t explain why she did it. Any of it.
I mean that's what you are up against with a WAS, they may say evil, hateful, horrible, confusing things and then just a few months later not even remember it! Or if they do remember, it seems foreign to them, like they have no idea why they said or did those things. That's the power of the WAS fog. BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY.
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If she is so concerned about how our relationship affects the kids, what exactly does she think S / D will do then?
Again, you're trying to figure out what can't be figured out. Her mind is not a neat place with rows of info that you can walk down to examine and make sense of. You can't sit her down and reason with her, explain the pros and cons and lead her to decide to work on the M. Her mind is like a violent storm thrashing about. When she opens her mouth it's like detritus is getting ejected from the storm. You can't make sense of it because there's nothing to make sense out of. Try and grasp that, it is a key point of DB'ing because the sooner you understand it then the easier it is for you to let go, STFU, and focus on just listening and validating.
I just speed read through this thread and will hit a few high points: