TJT Becoming a "MFS"

[Yail]

Oooh TJT lots of good stuff here.

It seemed I was somewhat... and I stress "somewhat"... at peace with my situation, moreso just living my life and not worrying about anything else. In a way I guess I was just distracted but I really do think the feeling will be carrying over. At least I hope. We did talk about my H a bit but it was in a productive way (not distracting from our vacation).

This was how I turned a corner. Distraction by something fun. It doesn't take the pain away, it's not denial. It's just the fact that you can simultaneously live your life while processing your grief. This is great.

My friend's friend actually proposed I take a picture with her H as if it was a guy I was with, but A) I don't want to be fake about things and portray something that's not true, like me moving on/having fun with another guy, and B) I don't want to do things just for a reaction out of my H (trying to make him jealous and want me back) because we know that probably wouldn't work anyway and would only be to satisfy that 15 minutes of vengeance.

Good on you. This is perfect - you shouldn't be making any fake news or try to push yourself into your H's mind. Your photos that your friend posted were organic and natural - that's fine. But anything in an attempt to solicit a reaction is inauthentic and will only cause problems. This will certainly backfire.

.. or maybe he was just like "Ugh.. I regret everything. I want to go home to my W." Of course I'm going to go with the latter...

Not yet. Don't do this. He isn't there, don't psyche yourself out to pretend that he is. He was likely curious, but NOT in a way that will change his mind right now. (remember: right NOW. The future is undetermined)

I'm so glad you had fun and it pushed you into a positive mentality. Just be careful thinking your H viewing your story "means" something. Right now it doesn't. Remember that. Not now. Maybe later. Right now you only need to concern yourself with the fact that you had fun and you want to figure out how to go on more awesome vacations!!

[TJT]

Oh wait, one more thing I forgot to mention. One thing I have ALWAYS struggled with on vacations is all of the other super beautiful women around. Even at times when I think I look good, it never fails that some knockout lady wearing next to nothing will come strutting around.

There was a LOT of this where we were at (even some topless sunbathing), and on one hand I was happy that I didn't have to worry about a partner oogling over someone like that. But I also can't figure out how to reconcile that anxiousness I get in those situations, because it WILL happen no matter who I'm with, at some point. There's always someone better looking, and smarter, and yadda yadda.

So, I know obviously commitment and respect is all part of this, and that the right person will help make me feel comfortable and respected in such situations... but regardless of that, I always always always think in my head that my partner must be wondering what it's like to be with that person. Sure they love me, but who wouldn't love that other person?? This happens to me when watching movies with a significant other as well. If there's a sex scene or topless woman, I immediately think welp, pretty sure they are wishing that was them right now, or that this woman is super hot and turning them on. I get really discouraged.

And no I can't even flip that around on myself because I've never been one to have like a "celebrity crush" or that one person I'd ask for a "hall pass" for. I hate that crap. Yes I can acknowledge when someone else is handsome or whatever, but I don't get any joy out of fantasizing about someone I don't even know. It's very personal to me, and I've thought about it a lot over many, many years and I can't figure out why I feel this way, while many others don't seem to care much. I mean ultimately it boils down to fear of not being good enough I guess, but I can't pinpoint why that's a thing for me... like if there's some unconscious thing going on from something I may have seen as a little girl or something, I really don't know. There's nothing obvious that I can attribute to it, and then I start to wonder am I truly wrong for feeling that way or is it maybe more normal than I think and other people just don't admit to it?

When I first found out about my H's PA, I went into overdrive researching if all men really fantasize about other women and if it's just a fact of life that I will need to get over. I read some things that reassured me that a good man doesn't do things like this, and a tonnnn of other things claiming that men literally can't control their eyes or their thoughts, that basically they don't even know they're doing it half the time, like a sneeze, and that the best I could ask for is a man who can at least control his actions beyond the looking/fantasizing. Cue allll of the biology reasoning, etc.

Essentially I think there's clearly a balance of my partner respecting me and making me feel safe in the relationship AND my own insecurities involved here. What's terrible about my sitch is that this existed well before my H and I met (I've felt this way my whole life as far as I can tell), and one of the things I loved about my H was that he did make me feel "safe" and as if he only wanted me.... and now that he is the one to have done what he's done, I know this fear/insecurity/uncomfortable nature I have in these situations is going to be amplified by 1,000 going forward. In that respect, I feel like I'm probably one of the worst people he could have done this to.

So that's kind of a downer post as compared to my initial update post, but it's really just a side note I wanted to dive into a little more and get insights on for the future, because that's always been very difficult for me in a relationship.

[TJT]

Oooh TJT lots of good stuff here.

It seemed I was somewhat... and I stress "somewhat"... at peace with my situation, moreso just living my life and not worrying about anything else. In a way I guess I was just distracted but I really do think the feeling will be carrying over. At least I hope. We did talk about my H a bit but it was in a productive way (not distracting from our vacation).

This was how I turned a corner. Distraction by something fun. It doesn't take the pain away, it's not denial. It's just the fact that you can simultaneously live your life while processing your grief. This is great.

Yes! I was so proud to have felt/realized that ("happy" doesn't quite seem like the right word).

.. or maybe he was just like "Ugh.. I regret everything. I want to go home to my W." Of course I'm going to go with the latter...

Not yet. Don't do this. He isn't there, don't psyche yourself out to pretend that he is. He was likely curious, but NOT in a way that will change his mind right now. (remember: right NOW. The future is undetermined)

I'm so glad you had fun and it pushed you into a positive mentality. Just be careful thinking your H viewing your story "means" something. Right now it doesn't. Remember that. Not now. Maybe later.

I know you're right about this. I'm right there with you, and even though of course I hope for it to mean something deep down, I said that somewhat facetiously. I have definitely just filed this in the "noted" folder for now. No further action from me, not further expectation from him. Just a fact of something that happened, and if it compounds into something down the line, so be it.

I just liked the actual fact that even if it means nothing about him wanting to be back together with me, I'm still taking up space in his consciousness - and I don't say that out of vanity, but rather it makes me feel more sane and again, that he IS still at least part human...a teeny tiny bit of human somewhere in that alien.

[Yail]

Your first 4 paragraphs - I'm referencing these.

Ok. This is SO strange for me because you have highlighted something I really identify and I've come to a conclusion recently and so...stay with me here.

This very well may not apply to you, so I apologize if I've misread what you're saying.

I felt this same way for a while. Like, wildly uncomfortable at other women being hotter and more comfortable with their bodies etc. As if it was about me being in competition. I'm super curvy, so in some clothing I feel great, but in a swimsuit...way too much curve when I compare myself to other women. And what I'm realizing for ME (maybe not for you, but consider this...) is that this is about me actually being uncomfortable with nudity/sexuality.

I was a Women's Studies minor, and I'm all about body positivity and women having full agency of their bodies. In THEORY. I'm realizing I may be a bit more conservative than I originally thought, because for me my discomfort comes from how I feel about the nudity - not how my partner might feel while standing next to me. I was projecting my own discomfort and insecurities. But I feel equally uncomfortable around naked men and naked women, so this may be different than what you're saying.

If you hypothetically went to a nudist beach with men would you feel the same anxiety? This may help you know if it's a jealousy question, or a nudity question.



Regarding your final 3 paragraphs: assuming monogamy, any partner should make you feel safe in that they will not stray. I know you feel like you'll carry PTSD with you in your future Rs, but I don't think you will. Not if you process it in a healthy way now. So just remember that you'll be at that trusting place again. And you and your partner can walk by all the stupidly hot people in the world and not even bat an eyelash.

[SoTorn]

Oh wait, one more thing I forgot to mention. One thing I have ALWAYS struggled with on vacations is all of the other super beautiful women around. Even at times when I think I look good, it never fails that some knockout lady wearing next to nothing will come strutting around.

There was a LOT of this where we were at (even some topless sunbathing), and on one hand I was happy that I didn't have to worry about a partner oogling over someone like that. But I also can't figure out how to reconcile that anxiousness I get in those situations, because it WILL happen no matter who I'm with, at some point. There's always someone better looking, and smarter, and yadda yadda.

So, I know obviously commitment and respect is all part of this, and that the right person will help make me feel comfortable and respected in such situations... but regardless of that, I always always always think in my head that my partner must be wondering what it's like to be with that person. Sure they love me, but who wouldn't love that other person?? This happens to me when watching movies with a significant other as well. If there's a sex scene or topless woman, I immediately think welp, pretty sure they are wishing that was them right now, or that this woman is super hot and turning them on. I get really discouraged.

And no I can't even flip that around on myself because I've never been one to have like a "celebrity crush" or that one person I'd ask for a "hall pass" for. I hate that crap. Yes I can acknowledge when someone else is handsome or whatever, but I don't get any joy out of fantasizing about someone I don't even know. It's very personal to me, and I've thought about it a lot over many, many years and I can't figure out why I feel this way, while many others don't seem to care much. I mean ultimately it boils down to fear of not being good enough I guess, but I can't pinpoint why that's a thing for me... like if there's some unconscious thing going on from something I may have seen as a little girl or something, I really don't know. There's nothing obvious that I can attribute to it, and then I start to wonder am I truly wrong for feeling that way or is it maybe more normal than I think and other people just don't admit to it?

When I first found out about my H's PA, I went into overdrive researching if all men really fantasize about other women and if it's just a fact of life that I will need to get over. I read some things that reassured me that a good man doesn't do things like this, and a tonnnn of other things claiming that men literally can't control their eyes or their thoughts, that basically they don't even know they're doing it half the time, like a sneeze, and that the best I could ask for is a man who can at least control his actions beyond the looking/fantasizing. Cue allll of the biology reasoning, etc.

Essentially I think there's clearly a balance of my partner respecting me and making me feel safe in the relationship AND my own insecurities involved here. What's terrible about my sitch is that this existed well before my H and I met (I've felt this way my whole life as far as I can tell), and one of the things I loved about my H was that he did make me feel "safe" and as if he only wanted me.... and now that he is the one to have done what he's done, I know this fear/insecurity/uncomfortable nature I have in these situations is going to be amplified by 1,000 going forward. In that respect, I feel like I'm probably one of the worst people he could have done this to.

So that's kind of a downer post as compared to my initial update post, but it's really just a side note I wanted to dive into a little more and get insights on for the future, because that's always been very difficult for me in a relationship.

I never oogled other women or fantasized about other women. All my desire and focus was on my WW. I was very attracted to my W and always told her that she was the most beautiful woman in the world to me. That was one positive trait i had in the MR. I honestly would have sex dreams only about my W.

That has stopped fortunately. I simply was not attracted to other women because i truly only desired my W. I never even considered it. Besides my many flaws I was absolutely loyal. Obviously to a fault.

[TJT]

Thanks SoTorn, I need to be reminded that men like you are out there! I also empathize with being too loyal, apparently. Without sounding arrogant, I do feel like true loyalty is hard to come by and if nothing else, they will come to miss that when they realize most other people have conditions attached to them.

Yail, I think I am half and half when it comes to what you said about the sexuality/nudity thing. When I think about seeing naked men, or even just an attractive man, it definitely does not give me the same anxiety as when there's women around. If anything I keep hyper aware that maybe the person I'm with (like my H) may feel inferior (like I would in his shoes) and thus I try harder not to look or do anything that would give him the impression I care. I don't even like to talk with girlfriends about how hot a guy is if I'm in a relationship at the time. It seems superficial and dumb if I'm not looking for someone new.

That being said, even WITH my H (or anyone I can imagine being intimate with) I do have pretty clear sexual limits. To put it simply, I am pretty traditional. I like being sexy/sexual and pleasing my partner, but I feel "yucky" about anything that's more "experimental" in the bedroom.

I think, after saying this, it may have more to do with objectification? Since I value a deep, loving bond and relationship with someone, anything that makes me feel like something is purely for the sexual pleasure (even if I know that person loves me) feels terrible, whether it's someone admiring someone else from afar or me doing something I'm uncomfortable with in the bedroom just to be "wild" for someone. That does not equal love to me, so it makes me feel bad. This also makes sense because I DETEST p0rn. I cannot stand it if I know my partner watches that stuff. It makes me feel like I'm not enough and I mean, come on, the idea of someone you love watching other people in sexual acts has always been hurtful to me. I also know it causes very real problems in relationships sexually for psychological reasons, and have had both family and friends talk about major issues as a result. So, yeah.

At some point in our M my H got comfortable and sexy time was instigated with very deliberate "signals", and even though he would text me things like "good morning beautiful", other daily/informal affirmations face to face really didn't happen, at least not like they did early on when we were dating. And I didn't feel super bad about that or like he didn't find me attractive anymore, but I don't think he realized how much his continued affirmations would have helped me feel even more comfortable around him sexually.

I also think of things like why he didn't put in effort to suggest things to me, like lingerie he would have liked to see me in. I honestly wondered one day if he even knew my bra size (guys should know that about their Ws right?) Again he never vocalized any specific issue with our sex life, so finding the Victoria's Secret credit card in his wallet from OW (and obviously the fact that he had a PA to begin with) was just another deep blow to my self esteem in an area I was already self conscious about where I figured okay, maybe I'm not enough for him.

I DID always make sure we were "engaging" because I knew at the very least I did not want him to go without, so we absolutely did not have a sexless marriage. It just wasn't "wild and crazy" like I'm sure OW tries to be (her XBF seemed to validate that she tries hard to get that kind of attention) Although P.S. VS is super basic and overhyped in my opinion...there is much better quality stuff elsewhere, but it's the "cool" brand... if you're a teenage girl (sorry to any other ladies here who may like it haha).

As with the rest of our M, I feel in the dark about what he really wants since he has not communicated well with me on anything, except to now say he wasn't happy. And this is why I feel like some of the "problems" he saw could be so easily addressed, if he could just fix his bigger problem of communicating clearly and not avoiding everything.

So to come full circle with what you said, Yail, hopefully whoever the next person is (even if it's H 2.0) will realize the importance of that communication with me and I won't feel so apprehensive about this stuff. And I will have to learn to trust people again that what they say/do to me is what they mean, and won't do what H did.

My side note officially turned into its own topic, oops.

[Yail]

I have cycled in and out of feeling the way you do around my own sexuality. I say "sexuality" and not "sex" because I'm coming to realize my own power in framing it that way.

I've been very removed from sex in the past. To varying degrees I've always taken the back seat in that I never owned the fact that I was an active participant. I'm very much the kind of person who lives in my own head (I suspect you are as well), and from an academic/Women's Studies standpoint I too have a lot to say against objectification of bodies. Sex was something that happened in my life, and I was happy about that.

The past few weeks I've really considered and thought about my own sex life, since it is currently non-existent. I realized I never was in the driver's seat with my own desires. Not to say we wouldn't have the "what do you want?" conversations, but most of the time I just came up blank with answers. I didn't have anything specific in mind I was holding back on, but I never allowed myself to fantasize, or dream of anything outside of very specific parameters. I never thought about anyone else except W.

So since I'm in no-sex land, it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks that I am the only one in charge of my own sex life. What was I doing with that power? Nothing! I treated sex like something important and enjoyed - but completely separate from me. That's not how I want to live my life. I want an active and healthy sex life.

So I'm honestly doing reading and research to see what I can do to create my own healthy views and dialogue around the fact that as a human I am a sexual creature. I'm enjoying Emily Nagoski and Dan Savage - to me both feel very authentic and sex-positive.

Regarding the "yucky" feeling. My mind was opened by listening to Dan Savage (the famous sex advice columnist). He has some YouTube videos, but I don't think I'm allowed to specifically link on this forum. In one of them he talks about a Venn Diagram of what each partner wants to do in the bedroom. And if you only ever do what you both WANT to do, you will likely have a small overlap. But if you consider things that you are ambivalent to - but you do them for your partner - reports of sexual and relationship satisfaction go up. This is NOT anything that makes you feel shame, or fear, or anything negative. Just things you would not normally be into. Something to turn around in your brain.

I say this because:

I also think of things like why he didn't put in effort to suggest things to me, like lingerie he would have liked to see me in.

.

So, what did you suggest to him? What was your part of the Venn Diagram that didn't overlap with his? Where was your ownership of your own sex life? It sounds like you are like me - it happens, but what do you feel you have to contribute aside from following your partner's lead?

So to come full circle with what you said, Yail, hopefully whoever the next person is (even if it's H 2.0) will realize the importance of that communication with me and I won't feel so apprehensive about this stuff.

I think you need to as well. I think there are things that you'd really be into that are maybe not identified yet - and they may be subtle! - but you'll have to identify them with words so you can also communicate that to your partner.


Lastly, for fun:

I honestly wondered one day if he even knew my bra size (guys should know that about their Ws right?)

I'm going to go with "no". I have no idea what size W wore. And I doubt she knew mine. I'm a woman, I should be tuned into this stuff! But not a clue. I don't know if most men know their W's sizes. Curious now!

[TJT]

So I'm honestly doing reading and research to see what I can do to create my own healthy views and dialogue around the fact that as a human I am a sexual creature. I'm enjoying Emily Nagoski and Dan Savage - to me both feel very authentic and sex-positive.

Yeah, I'm interested in this too to see if it would "help". I have moments of feeling "sexual" as a person but I would say by and large, I could take it or leave it *shrug*. I've also been on BC for years which I know doesn't help with that. But it has never prevented me from doing it, it has just meant I'm content with whatever happens, no matter how simple, and like you I have never had this desire to do anything different.

Regarding the "yucky" feeling. My mind was opened by listening to Dan Savage (the famous sex advice columnist). He has some YouTube videos, but I don't think I'm allowed to specifically link on this forum. In one of them he talks about a Venn Diagram of what each partner wants to do in the bedroom. And if you only ever do what you both WANT to do, you will likely have a small overlap. But if you consider things that you are ambivalent to - but you do them for your partner - reports of sexual and relationship satisfaction go up. This is NOT anything that makes you feel shame, or fear, or anything negative. Just things you would not normally be into. Something to turn around in your brain.

Interesting concept, I will think about this more.

So to come full circle with what you said, Yail, hopefully whoever the next person is (even if it's H 2.0) will realize the importance of that communication with me and I won't feel so apprehensive about this stuff.

I think you need to as well. I think there are things that you'd really be into that are maybe not identified yet - and they may be subtle! - but you'll have to identify them with words so you can also communicate that to your partner.

Agreed. This is one area I've felt "shy" about, if that's even the right word, because it doesn't feel natural for me to do. I will also say I had tried to tell H a few times when he was doing something that was not working for me, and per usual with feedback, he took it personally, got upset and it would ruin the mood (after he BDed I told him this directly, as he would tell me he wanted better communication which was super ironic to me).

So I stopped giving feedback because I didn't want to make him upset. Nevertheless, you're right that I could have started a conversation and I did think about talking to him many times about some of my minor wants. I think I just figured I'd get the same response as I do with everything else, which was typically that everything was fine...and I was afraid that making my own suggestion about something I wanted would come off as critical, and it wasn't really worth that for me.

I honestly wondered one day if he even knew my bra size (guys should know that about their Ws right?)

I'm going to go with "no". I have no idea what size W wore. And I doubt she knew mine. I'm a woman, I should be tuned into this stuff! But not a clue. I don't know if most men know their W's sizes. Curious now!

You're probably right about this. I won't expect it in the future I just wonder how some people buy their Ws lingerie without knowing what size they are!? That being said I think I might prefer to be the buyer anyway..maybe with input.

In fact I did exactly that after BD but before I found out about A (and clearly before I was DBing)...sent him a text of something I bought and wasn't sure if he would be open to it (stupid me) thinking maybe he would see I was trying and it would help our relationship. Of course he was raring to go and took full advantage. Later when everything came to light and I pointed out that I was trying to "do better" (sad) he did the whole "too little too late" thing. Funny he didn't say that at the time!!

I also think it's important to note... when me and H first started seeing each other, I found a DVD in his house of him and another woman. Obviously it was traumatizing to see and we talked at length about how uncomfortable I was that he still had this, why he still had it, that I was uncertain of whether he'd be happy with me because I wasn't "that kind of girl" who would make home movies (and act super p0rn star about it like this girl did). He reassured me that it wasn't like that and he would get rid of it..

AND THEN I found he still had it a little while later, so I confronted him AGAIN super POed and he made some excuse about how he was going to give it to her to keep and I was like WTF?? No! He got really upset that I was so upset and broke it into pieces in front of me in the trash. I felt he was genuine and just a dumb guy that didn't get why it was a big deal, so after that I was satisfied.

Probably for a few years after that it was hard to get out of my head. I would always wonder how I was comparing, etc. (because how can you not when you've literally seen your SO with someone else). It eventually became less of a thing for me and I got to a point where I didn't really think about it except on occasion.

Man, I've really put up with/gotten through a lot from my H since day 1. I've always known it but writing it out just solidifies it. I can't really think of anything I've done as bad as some of things I've had to get through with him. I'm sure I'm frustrating on many days but the level of commitment and resilience I've had to have with him is actually amazing. And highlights how sad it is that he can't see how much love and loyalty is there. I know at one point he recognized it (like earlier on when he really was trying to solidify our relationship) and was happy I "gave him a chance" (he wrote this to me many times in letters), but that A amnesia must be strong stuff..

I was almost going to say that I hope I'm not masking my own stupidity as loyalty. But I refuse to be that hard on myself. Maybe other people would have saw that as a red flag and ran but I believed my H really cared for me and ultimately he did all the right things to where I thought continuing on with him was reasonable (I didn't make it easy either), and there was nothing that continued after that initial rough start that was concerning. It was like once we both realized we were serious about each other, we were good.

Anyway I've been holed up all weekend with the flu I'm pretty sure. Everyone on my trip was getting sick toward the end. Had a temp last night of 100.1 and my head is killing me, so just sitting here trying to stay comfortable, watching a little football (in small doses so it doesn't remind me too much of H) and trying to prep for a new work week tomorrow after vaca AND flu... ugh.

[SoTorn]

I guess I am one of the few men that actually knew what size his W wore in clothes. I would go shopping with her often and help her pick clothes.

I agree that you MUST talk about what you like and you do not like in the bedroom. I was very vocal about trying new things. One thing for certain is that sex in my MR was not an issue at all. I hear all these horror stories about W who cheat and then berate their husband by telling them that the OM was so much better.

I did a lot of reading in my MR on how to keep the spice up in the bedroom and that worked. I am glad that the unhappiness didn't come from lack of sex in my MR.

[paco123]

My therapist advises there is nothing abnormal and it is indeed healthy I continue to fantasize about my W.

Against this advice, I am trying not to (often unsuccessfully). Continuing to do so just makes it harder for me to detach.