Uncertain of What I Have (Thread 4)

[ovrrnbw]

What’s the rush?

Dude, trust me, you don't want to keep things up the way they are going now. If you guys end up divorced, you'd wish she'd go ASAP so you can get on with life.

Right now, she sees you as standing in her way and delaying things. You need to get out of her way so she can see how you aren't the source of all her problems.

This doesn't mean you give in to her outrageous ideas. R2C put it well. Leave it at that. If she thinks you're avoiding, maybe she's right, maybe not. But don't avoid. You may want to have a lawyer look at that "plan". Then when she asks about it, tell her your lawyer is reviewing it.

[Bo562]

Dude, trust me, you don't want to keep things up the way they are going now. If you guys end up divorced, you'd wish she'd go ASAP so you can get on with life.

I’m in a surprisingly good mood this morning, so far. Trying to PMA, but also not think of her as much and if I do, not let it get my down. But you’re right. This can’t hold forever. And also relates to my comment at the bottom—wondering if I should be done and ready to move on, too.

Right now, she sees you as standing in her way and delaying things. You need to get out of her way so she can see how you aren't the source of all her problems.

You are correct on both counts. She sees me as the problem, not a surprise. But I’m also not the (total) source of her problems.

This doesn't mean you give in to her outrageous ideas. R2C put it well. Leave it at that. If she thinks you're avoiding, maybe she's right, maybe not. But don't avoid. You may want to have a lawyer look at that "plan". Then when she asks about it, tell her your lawyer is reviewing it.

I believe I mentioned this on a previous post. I’d like to have an initial consult with an L to look it over. It looks surprisingly well done—I’m sure she had ‘help,’ or a legal template, I’m betting.

[Bo562]

Hmm, If you split up, you'd also be supporting 2 residences, so I do not see this as a problem.

I see what you are saying—that we’d both be responsible, whatever that entails.

But I’ve always thought from the get-go that an S / D would be a terrible idea financially. $ has always been kinda tight for us—not sure how easier it would get on our own.

But then, she also has a mom who I’m sure would be willing to help. I also believe that if her mom is serious about helping, then she needs to go live with her mom.

Tu put is simply, she wants to be done, so she can start the next chapter of her "fairy tale". I know this $hit is hard and one cannot help but to question oneself. Did you make mistakes? Sure you did. could you have been a better husband and a better father? Sure you could. You are not perfect, no one is. Did your actions warrant her abandoning the marriage? Deffo not. She clearly forgot that line "...to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part...". She most deffo forgot the worse part and especially the until death do us part. So to answer your question, no, you most probably have NOT been that $hitty husband to warrant any of it.

Times will come when you will be doubting yourself and in my recollection these feelings come in waves, but the further along you are, the less they will affect you. You have to step up your game and become the best dad you can and you also have to better yourself. You have room for improvement, we all have that.

Thanks, Vapo. Of course I made mistakes, but to hear her tell it, I’m the F-up and the root of all her problems. Typical WAS speak.

I appreciate the affirmation, because yeah don’t feel this is justified at all.

The analogy I’ve had in mind for this reading other posts is: Think of a giant rock splashing in a body of water. Sure, the impact is bad, even catastrophic at first, but as the waves travel further out, in time and in distance from the impact site, the distance between the waves lessen, until waters are calm again.

I am trying to step up my game and be the best dad that I can—hence me spending tons of time with YS where I can. My heart breaks to think that there is a very real possibility that he will not know of a time where W and I are together. But I need to cherish the time with him and serve him, too.

I also know I have room for improvement. But I’m a bit stuck on the GAL part—not the part of where to go to do it, that I’m sure I can find. I just need to not be so concerned about her raising h#ll with me for not being there for the kids. She wants me there only on HER TERMS.

[AnotherStander]

I think the idea of ‘bird-nesting’ is absolute trash. Why should I have to pay for / maintain 2 residences because she wants out? It totally sounds like cake-eating because it totally is cake-eating.

Well it's not "trash", sometimes neither parent can afford to keep the family home so this is a way of transitioning without taking the kids out of their "home". Makes it easier for the kids because they're still coming home from school to the same place, they still have the same rooms, and they don't have to pack up and move every week (or every few days). It's not for everyone though. The obvious negative aspect of it is you are still tied to your W. It makes it difficult to start a new R with someone else. Like Vapo said if you S then you're going to have two different places anyway, so I'm not sure I would call it cake-eating.

She wants out, she needs to leave. If she’s so concerned about the kids, maybe don’t get a divorce?

Lots of anger and frustration in many of your comments. I get it, but you need to work on getting past it. Keep in mind that your W is confused and spinning and desperate. Deep down inside she doesn't know what she wants, but she's desperate to get out of what she sees as a very negative marriage and this is her "last resort". Your job isn't to throw the door open and shove her out with negative behavior. As 25 is fond of saying, "keep the way home paved and smooth". Think about that and what that means. You can't drive her home. But you CAN tear the hell out of that road to where she CAN'T drive home. Or you can keep that road smooth and maintained and the destination (you) attractive so that she WANTS to make that drive later.

It may seem petty and rude, but I don’t serve her dinner. She wants a husband, she needs to treat me like one, and she’s not doing that. No thanks.

Back in the mid 80's I started my first professional job after college. I roomed with a guy working at the same firm. We both got some very menial tasks assigned to us. I was just happy to be getting paid for stuff, but he complained about it non-stop. He decided he was going to do a crappy job at it so that they would have to give him something better. I looked at him and said "If you want to do something better, then do the best job they have ever seen at these menial tasks, because then they will say 'wow this guy is too valuable to be doing grunt work'." He didn't heed my advice and eventually got laid off while I went on to be an associate principal in the firm. I'm sure you see my point, if you want to be her H then quit acting like a spoiled little brat who's not getting his way and is going to stomp his feet and pout and cross his arms until he does get it (NGS). Negative behavior only gets rewarded in dysfunctional relationships. Now I'm not saying to go overboard trying to "be her husband" either, but again it's about "lovingly" detaching. Show her love and respect despite how she is treating you and the M. Take the moral high road.

The thing about GAL is, and this may sound very NGS, but what about the kids? I help with the kids at night, especially the youngest, and I don’t want to miss time with them if I can help it. Won’t she get all bent out of shape that I’m not around?

Honestly it's tough to GAL when you are still living together. If you don't GAL then you are there all the time and not giving her space. If you do GAL then she sees you as skipping out on your responsibilities. It's really a no-win situation. Personally I think that as long as you are under the same roof and when you have small kids you should give her the respect of letting her know when you are going to be out of the house. I'm not saying to tell her where you are going and what you're doing, but give her advanced notice so she can plan for it. And offer to watch the kids so she can get out too. A lot of LBS's think it's "good" to suddenly be gone ALL THE TIME and leave their WAS stuck home taking care of the kids. No, that's how a lot of marriages break up in the first place.

Admittedly, it is kinda hard to treat her with respect right now, with what she is trying to do to me and our family. I have very little respect towards all that. But I need to keep in mind showing her happiness and contentment, although it’s really difficult right now.

Well her point of view is this is all YOUR fault. You think it's all her fault, so you end up with two people harboring a ton of anger and resentment towards each other. That's a D waiting to happen. DB'ing is all about NOT being angry, resentful and disrespectful even when she is. Like Michele says, it takes one to tango. You are that one, not your W. RISE ABOVE.

We also had a discussion earlier tonight, while I was making OS’ lunch. W asked me if I reviewed the parenting plan. I told her that I started to do that.

She wants to know when I’ll have it reviewed. I told her that I will continue to review it and when it is reviewed it is reviewed.

She wants to know when she will have an answer. A week, a month, never? I told that I will continue to review it and when I am ready I will get back with her.

W then goes on about how I *always* (there’s that word again) say I’m gonna do things but then I never actually follow up. I have looked it over, briefly.

Quit stonewalling her and delaying things. She asked you a simple question, you owe her an answer. Tell her something like "let me finish looking at it and think about it and we'll talk tomorrow evening, does that work for you?" She's telling you what you need to do 180's on. DO THEM!

I tried to validate better this evening: “I understand why you would feel that way, but....”;

The word "but" has no place in validation!!!! When you use that word you completely unravel your attempt at validation.

[Twofeet]

Bo,

It may seem petty and rude, but I don’t serve her dinner. She wants a husband, she needs to treat me like one, and she’s not doing that. No thanks.

Did you make the dinner? Then what is the big deal with serving her the dinner? Treat her as a house guest not as the enemy. Its hard to not want to treat them as the enemy at times because of the betrayal you feel, but take the high road. The high road is the hard road, and the hard road leads to the easier life (Kind of stealing from R2C with the last statment).

I tried to validate better this evening: “I understand why you would feel that way, but....”;

My IC told me these things...

Validation is the recognition of a persons emotions, thoughts, and behaviors as something that is understandable. It does not mean agreeing with them. The validation of "I understand why you feel that way" is simply what it states. Ex: I can understand W why you feel like I am being controlling. You are letting W know her feelings are valid, acknowledgement does not equal agreement with her. Take it up a notch.... I can understand W why you feel like I am controlling, if the roles were reversed I might feel the same way. My IC says that in interpersonal relationships men typically think, act, communicate with logic and women typically think, act, and communicate with emotion. For me this was a eureka moment I just never got. If you are ever going to connect to W or a woman on a deeper level you need to communicate with her in a way she feels heard, validation is a big tool to do that.

Remove the word "but" from my vocab when talking to W. But is just a conjunction to negativity that just invalidates the first part of your statement.

She also said to not use "you" statements. You statements are attacking so change them to I statements. Ex:"Hey W you never listen to me" should be changed to "Hey W I just feel like I am never being heard." You change the dynamic from it attacking her as the problem to hey this is how I feel. When you don't attack people don't go on the defensive and are more likely to listen to you, work with you, etc.

Maybe you are doing some of this, but if not I hope it helps prevent conversations from going south. These types of things made it really difficult for W to argue with me. She still tries, and that's why you tie it all in with boundaries.

Remember you are the bad guy so don't be the bad guy.

[Bo562]

TF,

Yes, when I’ve made dinner recently I haven’t been serving her. However, she cleared my plate for me last night, and that kinda opened my eyes. She’s not the enemy, nor am I, and I should take the high road, but yes it’s so hard because I feel so betrayed and hurt.

I’ll remove the “but’s” from my validating statements. I’ve been doing my best to remove ‘you’ statements (though I have heard these from her, but I’ve said nothing about it—don’t want to fight about that), and I’ve been trying to communicate my needs better, “I need you to.....” instead of can you or would you.

I totally feel like the bad guy in all this (even though I know that is not totally the case), and I don’t want to be the bad guy anymore—objectively, or to her.

God, I’m such a mess right now and I feel like whatever I’m doing is just making things worse. Sometimes think that she’s right to do this—that she does deserve better and I’m not worthy of being married to her, and I can totally see why she’d want to leave.

[SoTorn]

Keep your head up. Just focus on you. I'm like almost NC with my WW because she cant have any contact without conflict and judging me. So I just leave her alone. I personally dont tell my wW anything about whether I will be home or not.

I'm not trying to be vindictive I just feel like I dont need to tell her anything. Why would she care where I'm at? Why would i care if she cared? However, my kids aren't small. 11 and 16.

[Bo562]

Hey AS,

Thanks for the 2x4s. I totally need them and deserve them.

I do understand that in many respects what she proposes is best for the kids; but it’s hard not to just want her to up and leave if she’s so unhappy.

I know W is desperate and emotional right now—and I need to not feed that fire as best as I can. But it feels like everything points back to me—I’m the reason why she wants out, I’m making things worse, etc. Even though I’m deeply conflicted right now, part of me doesn’t want her to leave and I do want things to be smooth (ultimately, no matter what). It’s also hard not to feel guilt for giving her the (real or not) impression that this is such a negative marriage that she has to run away screaming from. What could I ever have done to her? Vapo says that I’m not such a $hitty husband, but it’s really difficult not to feel like I have been.

That said, it is hard to want to be her husband right now, I’ll admit—that if she thinks I’m so terrible, then yeah leave. I have my moments where I’m kinda ready to be done and want to move on, as well. I’m so, so conflicted right now.

But you are also right that I need to take the moral high road and RISE ABOVE. I’ll start that tonight during dinner.

And I’ll also do the 180s—give her that answer, with a specified time.

Last thing—you’re right, using ‘but’ totally undo’s the point of whatever you just said. I’ll stop it.

I need more positive outlets, but GAL’ing is hard. I will never just stick her with the kids out of spite or take off unannounced, but I do want to build-in more things for myself. I’ll stick with the exercise and prayer, and I’ll be seeing an LMFT on 1/21, and I do have the forum to vent to. Honestly, I’d rather vent here than bottle it up or explode it in front of her.

I look like such a mess right now—like I said to TF, I feel like I’m making things worse.

[Bo562]

You’re right, ovrrnbw.

If she wants separation or divorce, delaying it or standing in her way is going to make her want it more. If you remove yourself from her path, maybe she will wonder if you were ever the problem - or at least as big a problem as she thought.

[AnotherStander]

She’s not the enemy, nor am I, and I should take the high road, but yes it’s so hard because I feel so betrayed and hurt.

But that is how she feels too. Of course you can argue that it makes no sense and isn't fair but we're talking about FEELINGS. The way she feels right now is extremely negative towards you and the M and in her eyes it is all your fault. You are feeling hurt now, well she is probably thinking "welcome to the club, I've been feeling hurt for years and you just ignored it". So treating her poorly is just feeding into her perception that you are the problem, that you will never change, and that S or D is the only option.

LBS's are usually so caught up in their own pain and grief that it's extremely difficult for them to see things from their spouse's point-of-view. And their spouse is usually the ice queen externally so it's hard to get a read on them. But inside they are really struggling. I remember people here telling me that about my ex and I would think "yeah right, you don't see her every day like I do, she is 100% resolute". Much later she told me that she cried in private every single day for months after BD. I was stunned, why was SHE crying? Was this not exactly what she wanted? But the thing is, they are really confused. They don't know what they want, but they think once they pull that trigger then they need to go through with it. But they second-guess themselves constantly. So if you are mean/ cold/ indifferent/ rude you are affirming that ending the M is the proper course of action. But if you are kind, understanding and accommodating, it contradicts their negative feelings towards you. It doesn't change their mind right away but it paves the way for them to change their mind.

I’ve been doing my best to remove ‘you’ statements (though I have heard these from her, but I’ve said nothing about it—don’t want to fight about that)

A lot of LBS's say similar things- why should I be understanding and accommodating if she's not reciprocating. And yes, it is tough! But if you want someone else to change you don't tell them to change X, Y and Z. You change YOURSELF first. And even if your changes don't change her, you are still a better person for it, and better equipped for the next R.

But it feels like everything points back to me—I’m the reason why she wants out, I’m making things worse, etc.

Yes, again this is about her feelings and perceptions. That is how she feels RIGHT NOW. That can and will change later whether you recon or not. When you read some of the piecing threads it's quite common for a WAS to say "I felt that way at the time, but now looking back I have no idea WHY I felt that way". So for now you just have to take your lumps. Let her feel that way, all you can do is be true to yourself and let her sort things out over time.

I have my moments where I’m kinda ready to be done and want to move on, as well. I’m so, so conflicted right now.

Be patient. There's no rush to shove her out the door, that will not bring the relief you're hoping for. Eventually you'll sort through these confusing feelings you're going through and get back to normal, THEN you'll be able to decide what the best course of action is. When I went through my sitch it just seemed to drag on and on and on like being stuck in purgatory. But now years later? It seems like it all happened so fast.

I look like such a mess right now—like I said to TF, I feel like I’m making things worse.

This isn't about what you did yesterday, it's about what you CAN do today and tomorrow, etc. going forward. Yesterday I mentioned in another thread that if you did 180's on EVERYTHING from day one then it would just look fake to your W, like tricks to get her back. But if you slowly improve and do more and more 180's over time, then it looks more genuine. So don't sweat it, just keep working on those changes.