A familiar story with questions EIGHT

[RR17]

I can only imagine where you are mentally after going at this sitch for as long as you have. That sounds draining. By draining, I mean emotionally tiring. But hopefully you aren't too emotionally attached right now and can find some happiness elsewhere and allow yourself to think through this on how you want to act. You don't sound super fired up, but I can tell you don't want to remain in this sexless marriage. And not only that, not having sex means you aren't connecting on an emotional level too, so I'm sure that's part of your frustration.

Which reminds me, those touch charges...I think that's a great way to take the bull by the horns and spur some positive emotions in both of you. Anything else you can think of? What's her LL?

Thanks ovrrnbw. Sex and physical affection is the missing element in the MR. Yea, it's all draining and everyone here has been through the wringer, but that isn't where I'm coming from on this. Personally, I am in a good place (most of the time). I feel that this is something that I need to take control of. And as well all know there is only one person that we can ultimately control within a relationship. And that is our Ws. Just kidding
Point is I feel like I am approaching this from level headed rational approach.

What's her LL? Well, she has never expressed it but if we love in a way that we like to be loved, I would say acts of kindness. I have done plenty of this. Especially around these holidays.

I just want to point out to others BEWARE the mindset that if you do XYZ for your W that she will feel inclined to reciprocate with sex. They don't operate that way. I used to think this way and never understood why it didn't work that way. Well, I've been reading, as many of you have, and the female mind doesn't treat it like an equitable transaction. Given what I have experienced and come to realize, I believe it. Just know this and watch your expectations.

[RR17]

Thanks, Sandi

Do you mean you will confront her about the SSM and then give her to the end of the year to change it? Man, you have a lot of patience! I'm sure you've heard that women need to make up before they want to have sex. Men want to have sex in order to make up. That situation can become the stand off throughout the M, b/c each spouse is waiting on the other one to make the necessary moves.

It kind of sounds like your plan is to lay it out to her that you aren't going to stay in a sexless M forever, and then wait for her to deliver. I have two thoughts about it. One is that it may shock her a little to be approached with a blunt statement of this sort. Frankly, I don't think it is a bad thing to do, b/c we women tend to think we control how much sex the M has. Sorry to say that there are some who don't really understand or care to consider what it does to a man to go without it for long periods of time. Maybe she needs that frank realization to hit her in the face that you don't have to live without sex, and you won't. As long as you realize the risk involved in making that statement to her.

Exactly, I want to both remind, inform, yes, perhaps shock, W to the fact that I too have options and one is to not stay in a sexless marriage.
I believe that my W likes a lot about the changes that have happened in our MR. I believe that she may think that if the MR were to include sex that some of those changes might go away. I have expressed in the past that I have felt that it was a type of "Hold back" in an effort to control. A sign that Everything is honkie dory.

I'm setting a healthy boundary. IMO

My second thought is about what you do after making that statement. If you have the idea you'll tell her, and then you'll sit and wait on her to initiate sex.......you may be waiting a longer time than you thought. That sit and wait on her attitude can result in building a higher barrier between the two of you.

BINGO! This I realize. I can't just wait with bated breath. I will have to manage my own expectation. I realize the agreeing to ease back into a physical relationship and W initiating are on two different levels. In her stubborn mind, I think initiating could be perceived by her as a sort of defeat. Stupid thinking but who knows.

I expect to enact a 2 pronged approach.

I will tell her when the time is right. I will make it as non-threatening as possible. And as stated, STFU. I will allow W to processes it.
I will give her some time to respond. Perhaps initiate or a rebuttal, whatever. I will plan my response which will be to validate and listen, yet STFU.

If after a while I see no movement from W I will try a mild initiation. I know that depending on how this info is received W will not respond well to pressure. Knowing this, I will try to plan my approach from a position of making it easier for W and not of pressured obligation. Understand?

I want to encourage you to think of ways of breaking this down as you try to reach your main goal of having a M with sex. I've already suggested to start giving non-sexual touches, and that was around the first of December. Here it is eight days into a new year, and you are still waiting for the right opportunity. Come on, RR!! The woman was sick in bed, and you couldn't touch her face to see if she felt too warm, or pat her shoulder when you went to check on her? This isn't good. It means you've gone so long with no type of physical touch that it may well affect the ability to ease back into showing any physical affection. I mean, I understand how a couple gets to this point of no type of touching, but it is really sad and it often reflects their relationship, IMO. You're making this harder than necessary.

I got a little tickled reading this. You are so right. Although I did take a few opportunities to feel her head for fever etc. But she was very sick and I didn't get the impression that these touches were received like affectionate touches. This W was sick. I've never seen her so sick in 24 years. She wanted to sleep.
But you are also correct in saying that a couple can go so long without touch that the mear idea seems awkward and almost impossible.
One of my first attempts was not well received. At the beginning of December we went to a Mexican restaurant and as W went into the door in front of me I put my hand softly on her back. She spun around and said, "Why are you pushing me?" Yea, wow. But I did continue. With a bit of trepidation.

Yes, I am going to take the lead. That is what this is more about than just getting my rocks off. Hopefully, I have demonstrated that I don't expect to just sit and wait. That would be an "implied contract". I am simply letting W know where I currently am and what I don't plan to tolerate indefinitely.

Thanks again!

[SteveLW]

I just want to point out to others BEWARE the mindset that if you do XYZ for your W that she will feel inclined to reciprocate with sex. They don't operate that way. I used to think this way and never understood why it didn't work that way. Well, I've been reading, as many of you have, and the female mind doesn't treat it like an equitable transaction. Given what I have experienced and come to realize, I believe it. Just know this and watch your expectations.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

In my own experience, my W is more open to sex based on two things: how she feels about herself and how secure she is our relationship.

How she feels about her herself is related to a lot of things and is very complex. All I can say to Hs is to make sure you are making sure there is room in your budget for hair appointments, nail appointments and the like.

On the second one this is a tricky one. Some Ws feel more sexual and affectionate when they are secure in their MR. "He loves me! So I will love him." My W is the opposite. If she feels too secure in the relationship she starts taking it for granted and stops trying. Obviously this is not the greatest dynamic for a marriage, and something we will continue to explore and work on in MC. What I mean by that is there is a certain level of security and comfort inherent in a marriage.

Women are complex creatures, and we guys don't always realize this. The key is exactly in what RR says: watch expectations. Just because you do X doesn't mean she will want sex that night.

[RR17]

Steve, I will add what I believe is one area that I have gotten in trouble with, in the past. And I imagine I am not the only one, is that when W doesn't want to have sex, it is not always about the H or even the state of the union. So don't take rejection so personally.

I once heard it said that "women have to have a reason to make love, men just need to have a place." Yes, there are exceptions but for the most part, I find this true.

I believe that there are several reasons that W use to want to have sex. Some involve you and many do not.

[RR17]

So today was the Day. After much thought and prayer, I pulled the trigger and told W that I didn't plan to stay in an SSM. I didn't exactly stick to my plan to STFU. We had an R talk.
It went good and parts were less than good. But this has to happen sometimes.

I shared that a SSM has a profound effect on an otherwise healthy male. She listened and it seemed like some new revelation that she never considered.
I explain how to me it had felt that she controlled too much in this MR. She controlled:

Money
respect
Sex

I acknowledged that she may not feel that way but that I did. And that that was not a dynamic that I was used to. nor one that I felt that she respected. She listened like I was sharing ideas that were never considered.

I explained that I wanted her to know that I constantly took her position into consideration. That I didn't always know how she felt but that I tried to imagine how she may have felt and that it mattered to me.

Anyway, as you can imagine several issues were touched on but I figure that you want to hear how she responded.

Today's cryptic message "But, I can't go back"

I validated and then I tried in the most delicate way possible to get her to expand on this. No easy feat. Yea, I get that she doesn't want to but I see this has some associated meanings.
I explained that if she felt that resuming our sex life would somehow grant license for other negative behaviors to return that I didn't see the connection but could understand how she might.
I did point out that she had expressed how at one time she said she felt that the only reason I liked her was for the sex. I said that I had hoped that in the last 7 months that she had seen that that was not the case.

Several times she looked like she was searching for words and because I have a habit of jumping in during the extended silences, I asked her if she had something and she would just say "No".

On a somewhat positive note. While sharing my thoughts and feelings, I told her that many times when she left or said that she was meeting someone that I still struggled with suspicion. The difference now, being that I didn't act on it.
That I appreciated that when she gets a text at a suspicious time and I ask "who's that?" that she didn't get defensive and just answered. She validated.
We discussed how when I first brought up that it had been 6 months and her response was "Me too" like this was something beyond her control that was just happening to her. She said that that was not the meaning, that she was letting me know that she hadn't been with anyone. Which lead to how for the first 15 years of MR I would trust anything she said, but that after lying for a year and a half that luxury was gone. She validated.

I added that not wanting to continue a sexual relationship given that there were so many big improvements in the MR was bound to remind me of how easily she had offered up her body in the EA. That I didn't feel it was productive or fair but that I couldn't help seeing a comparison.
She validated and looked very remorseful. No defensiveness at all.

We discussed how we both liked having separate bedrooms.

Much more was said but these are most of the highlights. I shared that some of the recent challenges were necessary to make the changes and that I believed that God had us right where he wanted. She agreed.

I asked for a hug if it wasn't too awkward. She said it was fine and I then I went on my way.

I am glad that I discussed this plan here even if I didn't stick to it 100%.

If you wonder what's next. I have discussed that in the last several posts and plan to stick with it. Feel free to ask for clarifications.

[SteveLW]

RR, here are my observations:

Moving forward requires these kinds of discussions. DBing is for the period that the WAS is walkaway and potentially wayward, but at some point these kinds of discussions are mandatory. It sounds like this went well. If it hadn't I would strongly suggest that you have the next one in MC. Even though this one went well I strongly suggest MC and having the next one there.

It does sound like your W is over her walkaway thoughts and WW. But I think you know she is still cake eating. Being your W means more than just cohabiting the same household.

You typed: "We discussed how we both liked having separate bedrooms." Why is this? I do not believe a SSM can be solved with this arrangement. Kicking a cheating W out of the MBR is for a purpose. At some point that situation has to change. I've never known a married couple that sleep separately that came closer together because of it. What were your reasons for liking it? I really do not think I could stay in such a marriage. And I do not think a marriage that is already a SSM can have that problem rectified that way.

RR, I haven't been following sitches as closely recently, is your W open to MC? I assume based on this dicussion going well that the EA is over? Most of the time, Ss actively engaged in an A are defensive and do not take kindly to these kinds of discussions. That it went this well says a lot.

[RR17]

First I want to add that during said R talk. I said that I wondered if she had cut out the sex in order to push me to do the dirty work of ending it all. She honestly denied this. I believe it at least on a conscious level.

Moving forward requires these kinds of discussions. DBing is for the period that the WAS is walkaway and potentially wayward, but at some point these kinds of discussions are mandatory. It sounds like this went well. If it hadn't I would strongly suggest that you have the next one in MC. Even though this one went well I strongly suggest MC and having the next one there.

RR, I haven't been following sitches as closely recently, is your W open to MC? I assume based on this dicussion going well that the EA is over? Most of the time, Ss actively engaged in an A are defensive and do not take kindly to these kinds of discussions. That it went this well says a lot.

Steve, this is what I love about you. You seek to understand before placing judgment. BTW, thanks for responding.

I know you follow many threads so a quick refresher. My W ended EA 5 years ago. Yea, I know, when you don't properly reconcile and work to establish trust these betrails linger for a very long time. I have never felt so affected by any event in my history like this one. Initially, I had to choose to trust and heal blah blah blah..
Since BD #2 W has done a lot to aid in the restoration of trust.

#2 My W is a poor communicator. In the past, she was riddled with guilt. W doesn't like MC one bit. We went for over a year, along with IC. She didn't like my sharing especially in front of a 3rd party witness. I hope that one day we can go back to address mature communication but I know that for now, W is not on board with MC.

You typed: "We discussed how we both liked having separate bedrooms." Why is this? I do not believe a SSM can be solved with this arrangement. Kicking a cheating W out of the MBR is for a purpose. At some point that situation has to change. I've never known a married couple that sleep separately that came closer together because of it. What were your reasons for liking it? I really do not think I could stay in such a marriage. And I do not think a marriage that is already a SSM can have that problem rectified that way.

W stated during this segment of the R talk, that when she first moved downstairs that she was mad and then she realized the drop in pressure and liked it.
I like it because I struggle to sleep to begin with and now I can have the MBR to myself and W makes noises in her sleep and besides if I'm not getting to touch, I don't need the temptation laying there next to me. To me, it has been a part of Seld-differentiation. For her? I imagine it has supported a healthy autonomy.

[SteveLW]

RR, thanks. I do remember all of the rehashing now. I also remember saying there was no way she was moving out 5/18! LOL Did that come up at all in the R talk? I am guessing she has pretended as if she never made that declaration.

All valid reasons for the separate sleeping arrangements. But as I said, at some point that has to end for you guys to move forward together. It will difficult if she is not open to MC. My W is very similar to yours. In MC I concentrated on sharing things for myself, let her share what she wanted about herself. Our MC was very good at reading people and could always tell if I was getting too close to an uncomfortable place for my W and shifting it away. She'd eventually come back.

I remember one exchange about the singing app. I said that she still spent too much time on the app and that it was a rough thing for me considering her recent history and that OM was from there. And that it was essentially an online meat market. W started to get uncomfortable, answers started to get evasive. MC redirected. Once W got more comfortable the MC went back to the issue and pointed out that people that couldn't handle certain things should stay away from them. Like the alcoholic not going into a bar, etc. And while she stopped short of saying that my W should stop singing on the app, she did say that it was important for her to be careful with how she did interact on the app. I thought it was handled perfectly.

RR, I really give our MC a lot of credit for our R. Without her I think we are in D proceedings at this point.

[ovrrnbw]

RR,

I must say that even though you may have had a couple of negatives during that talk, it went well overall. How would it have gone a year or 5 years ago? Not as well I bet.

So what has changed? And is that working? I would take notes of those two things and continue to do what works. You guys are actually talking, listening, and understanding each other. You can't make her continue to do this, but I bet she will feel respected if you keep this up. I bet you can start with the talk charges/touch charges, maybe a compliment here and there and start to work your way out of this.

I do still think it takes time either way, so continue the 180's you're making and keep a PMA. Good luck.

[sandi2]

First I want to add that during said R talk. I said that I wondered if she had cut out the sex in order to push me to do the dirty work of ending it all. She honestly denied this. I believe it at least on a conscious level.

Look, I admit that some women use sex to manipulate a man, but the biggest reason a W doesn't want to have sex with her H is b/c she doesn't desire him enough. And the crazy part about it is that a W will tell her H almost anything, other than that she doesn't desire him. Now, the key is finding out why she doesn't desire him.

If your W is experiencing physical or psychological issues that are preventing her from wanting to have sex with you......then for goodness sake, try to get her to see a doctor about her hormone levels, and to see a sex therapist.

RR17, you are doing too much guess work about your W and the status of the MR. You should know if your W is ready to go to work, or not. What did she mean she "could not go back"? Was she referring to sleeping in the same room, or having sex, or do you even know?

I think getting to a healthy sexual MR will be hindered by separate bedrooms. For one reason, sleeping in separate bedrooms automatically cuts out a time where relaxed, unplanned, tender responses to intimacy usually takes place. Otherwise, one of you would need to make your intentions or request for sex known in advance of going to bed. Once sex is over, then you each go back to separate rooms. I think women like to feel the physical closeness, without it always leading to sex. There is a certain feeling of security that comes from laying in the arms of her husband as she is drifting off to sleep. If he never goes to bed with her except when he wants sex......it could leave her feeling resentful. Women like to allow the natural process that leads up to making love. Whereas, men want to know where it's going before proceeding.

I've known older couples who had to have separate bedrooms, due to health or sleeping problems. However, it does decrease the periods of intimacy. I believe it is important, at least for a W, for her H to go to bed with her every night to share that time together in bed. Being in bed, cuddling, talking, or just laying close to each other offers a sense of intimacy, even if they don't have sex. Then, if one needs to go sleep in another room for health reasons.....so be it. Once a couple establishes that habit of having separate bedrooms.....it is very difficult to start sleeping in the bed together again.

Look at how neither of you show non-sexual touches. It is a very bad habit that comes from the lack of emotional intimacy and physical closeness. It should be the most natural thing in the world.....and yet, you can't seem to find an opportunity to touch her. If you can't touch her in non-sexual ways, or she reacts from a non-sexual touch.....then this MR needs professional help.

I understand you have your needs, and I'm not suggesting you settle for a SSM. Do you just want to have sex when you need it, or do you want to have a close, intimate relationship where both of you have your needs met? Maybe you can approach her and ask what her emotional needs are. What does she want in the relationship? If she can't talk about it, or you feel too awkward, then again.....I suggest MC and/or sex therapy. It is really, really tough getting the MR back on track without help.

Hope to hear a little more often from you.