LBS dealing with WW (part 7) (piecing?)

[BluWave]

Well I think it comes down to this:
1) At one point we had a good marriage. We went through a lot together, a lot of hard times with the wonderful times. We were a great couple for a long time. We fell out of sync in many ways and XW went WW and gave up on us.
2) We are not the same people anymore. In many ways she has grown in areas that I always wanted her to, but for whatever reason she never did. I have had substantial growth in many ways as well. We like what we see in each other now and it is worth exploring.
3) I would probably regret it forever if we never tried again.

These are 3 very good reasons to not give up so soon. I think you owe it to yourself to explore if an R with her could ever work. The slower the approach, the better. This could take a very, very long time to evolve into something new. There is still hurt and damage, understandably.

I want to call Steve out on something he said because I think we all have these bottom lines, but the point becomes moot as time carries on and we all make changes. He said that if he and his W had D, then that would be it, there would be no chance for R. We ALL have those bottom lines, but how can you know what you don't know? I had many, many bottom lines! I am a strong woman. I would never in my life have thought I would stay with a cheater.

The thing is, when our S returns to us, we have both changed and so has our perspective on everything. So I personally do not believe anyone can say what they would or wouldn't do UNTIL they are actually in that sitch and it has happened.

My bottom line has always been any type of infidelilty, but not the D itself. My H never filed for D, but he did have a long A with someone that was a close friend of mine, while I hit rock bottom and we had 3 kids. Totally unforgivable in most peoples mind! I never in my wildedst dreams would have thought I would ever give him another chance. And then it happened. And everyhting changed. And here I am. These bottom lines and blanket statements are meaningless.

I have another bottom line. Actually it's the same bottom line. Any type of infidelity and he is out. I would not even look back, DB, nada. I would file myself and move on. I have already been through years of suffering and then more years of piecing. .... but guess what? It hasn't actually happened, so in reality, I don't know how I would respond.

Joe, you have all the time in the world to figure out where this will go and if this will work. Maybe you are not even ready to date and are just wanting to talk about dating. That is okay too. You don't have to make any decions today, next month, or even next year. Just live and learn. It will all unfold in time!

Blu

[Joe2017]

Thanks Blu.

I have been very much down on our relationship since last night. I got upset that she answered a question from the OM via text. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH HER RESPONSE. He asked a question about a document he needed for his child. She was factual in her response, and immediately sent me a screen shot of the conversation.

I over reacted because my mind spiralled, and it caught her at a bad time when she did not feel like being patient. I spent the evening doing damage control. It is so frustrating not being able to trust her, but I also appreciate her honesty about the situation. She is trying to gain my trust and I can see that.

Blu, was there any one thing or event that let you know your XH was trustworthy? We are too early into this for me to trust completely but I also don't want to continue pushing my XW away with my lack of trust. I know I have to act As-If in this situation until I can trust instinctively rather than reactively.

We have been good, for the most part. We had an awesome weekend. I hate that it was overshadowed by my lack of trust yesterday.

My IC told me I have to trust her until she gives me a reason NOT to trust her again. I'm finding it hard to put that advice into practice.

[sandi2]

Maybe I should not respond to what seems an obvious question a LBS would need to answer. I've not been in your shoes or experienced betrayal from my spouse. Trust was one of the most cherished things my H and I shared, and I betrayed his trust in me. I remember asking him if he thought he would ever be able to trust me again. I'll never forget his answer, "Yes, b/c I have to. It's the only way I can live with you". In other words, he was saying that is who he is, and how he has to operate, if he's going to be in a MR with me.

Vanilla believes that one cannot "earn" trust. I think she even referred to it being abusive to require one to earn back your trust. She refers to the term, "atone"........which, is probably more accurate.

The decision to trust is completely up to you. I think it's easier if you can see that the betrayer is trying to make amends. I think of what some former, hard line......and hard nose, veterans use to say. "Trust and verify" was their motto when taking back the betrayer. They were very much into transparency methods.

IMHO, it's up to the one who has suffered the betrayal as to when they can begin to feel safe again. If the WS is being secretive and not cooperating by being transparent and showing some type of effort that they want you to feel safe in trusting them........then I suggest you guard your feelings. Maybe they can't earn your trust, but with good behavior, transparency, setting a new & improved record....and with time.......I would think it might be easier to trust in them again.

If you struggle with trusting her right now, don't beat yourself up. Why should you feel pressured into trusting her? Any former WS who acts insulted, angry, arrogant, resentful, or shows stubborn pride, when you aren't able to fully trust them..........has not accomplished some of the work that needs done on their heart, IMHO. If your WS has done the work on the heart, then I believe you will see a more humble side of them. They will be more concerned about you feeling safe, and they will want to prove to you that don't have hidden agendas or compromising boundaries. They won't have a bad attitude when you want to look at their phone activity. They won't complain about you intruding their privacy, etc., b/c they are genuine in their work in recovering from their wayward past. The fact your XW explained away OM's text as no big deal, suggests she is ignorant that she's playing with fire, or that she doesn't understand or care about the emotional triggers it causes.

There is no time limit, and no hurry about you trusting again. If she has not recovered and is holding on to old resentments and rebelliousness, it's going to show eventually. She should have blocked OM from contacting her. But let me add that she's not the one on the board getting the tools. Although you may expect her to have enough sense to know what she should do.......it doesn't make it so. Know what I mean? We are here supporting and trying to educate one another......but maybe she has not reached out to get informed on what she needs to do to recover and repair.

Anyway.......those are just some of my thoughts about it.

[SteveLW]

Vanilla believes that one cannot "earn" trust. I think she even referred to it being abusive to require one to earn back your trust. She refers to the term, "atone"........which, is probably more accurate.

That is an interesting take....one I am not sure about. "Abusive to require one to earn back your trust?" This jumped out at me. I don't want to derail this thread so I will be glad to take this to a different thread to discuss. Quickly, forgiveness requires repentance. sandi I know you know that a repentance is a turning around and going the other direction. It is more than just remorse for what you have done. I am not sure how I determine if another human-being has truly repented unless their actions thereafter are consistent in that turning away and going the other direction.

[Joe2017]

Interesting idea about earning trust being abusive. I can see how there is a fine line between requiring transparency and control-freak revenge, however I am unsure it automatically equals abuse.

For the record, my XW gave me access to her phone and her social media passwords before I even asked for it. She just sent it to me in a text one day out of the blue when she was at a party. Her phone password was also volunteered because she said she wanted me to be comfortable and see that she's not hiding things.

I understand her viewpoint about the text response to OM being a non-issue. Her XOM is a vindictive, aggressive, and abusive person so she was trying to keep the peace after she sent him the text about breaking contact. Obviously, she does not have the same understanding of NC as we generally keep on this site. I am trying to be patient, but she can be stubborn. I don't really receive any pushback when it comes to what I have asked for, and she has been very compliant for the most part.

She is by nature very impatient, so I can tell she is trying really hard when we've talked about the same topic multiple times at length...two or three times. She gets frustrated and then she thinks repeating herself means I don't believe her. I am being as patient as I can. She has quite a lot on her plate with her job, parenting, gym, etc. so weeknights are bad times for us to talk about things. I usually catch her at a bad time, so I am revisiting the chapter in DR that addresses the no-go times when talking is more likely to start an argument (like before work, PMS, etc.).

I am trying my best. One day at a time.

[BluWave]

Thanks Blu.

I have been very much down on our relationship since last night. I got upset that she answered a question from the OM via text. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH HER RESPONSE. He asked a question about a document he needed for his child. She was factual in her response, and immediately sent me a screen shot of the conversation.

I over reacted because my mind spiralled, and it caught her at a bad time when she did not feel like being patient. I spent the evening doing damage control. It is so frustrating not being able to trust her, but I also appreciate her honesty about the situation. She is trying to gain my trust and I can see that.

Blu, was there any one thing or event that let you know your XH was trustworthy? We are too early into this for me to trust completely but I also don't want to continue pushing my XW away with my lack of trust. I know I have to act As-If in this situation until I can trust instinctively rather than reactively.

We have been good, for the most part. We had an awesome weekend. I hate that it was overshadowed by my lack of trust yesterday.

My IC told me I have to trust her until she gives me a reason NOT to trust her again. I'm finding it hard to put that advice into practice.

This is hard. I don't really like what your IC said TBH. She HAS already given you a reason not to trust her in the past, so it's not as if you are waiting for her to give you another reason. I think more so, you are being cautious because now you know what she is capable of. Some of that is even subconscious.There are emotional triggers that come up, similar to a PTSD response, and you can't just turn them off. I am sure communicating with OM would trigger that. I had those triggers for a long time. I think it's reasonable that she end all communication with him and block him. Even if her interactions with him are not meaningful to her, they are affecting you.

To answer your question, no, there was not one thing or one event that happened so that I knew he was trustworthy. When my H left XOW, I could feel a giant shift in his behavior and communication. He wanted to end it with her and he wanted me to know that, including having no contact and providing transparency with devices, etc. I also could just tell intuitively that he was so relieved to be out of that situation and engaging with me again. I didn't worry that he would reach out to her or even want her back. My obstacle was less about trust and more about acceptance/forgiveness of what had already happened. He has proved he is trustworthy with consistent actions over time. I also now know that he or anyone can change at any time, but that I cannot control him/them!

I know there are differences between us, but in my sitch, my H was 100% wayward and had not had the urge to ever end the M or file for D, he was more running to some temporary fix and the only person left that was there to support him. He always knew it was wrong, and so in some ways that helped me trust him. I very much saw the problem to be their A and the fallout of that, because our other issues were/are manageable if we work on them.

Oddly, I haven't had many issues with trusting him. When he came back, I told him that I would never completely trust him, or any man really, and that I was changed now. I still mean that. I think I was naive that something like that could just never happen to me. So while I have trusted him since he has been back, I also know not to ever fully trust anyone, myself included. Not sure if that makes sense. If my H now did/or said things that raised eyebrows or made me question him, I would handle it very differently. I would let him know clearly what I will and won't tolerate, and if he was unable to provide that, I would distance myself and reevaluate. That's all I really can do. Trust means different things for different people, but ultimately we just have to be comfortable with what we decide feels right for us.

Blu

[SteveLW]

Agree with Blu, and just commented on this based on something sandi said related to trust. Vanilla, a poster I haven't seen a while, apparently said requiring someone to earn back your trust is abusive. I can't agree with that.

Trust is earned.

Once trust is broken trust is even harder earned.

Those that are trustworthy PROVE to be trusted.

After infidelity, the cheating spouse needs to agree to full transparency.

[Joe2017]

Vanilla is the best. She really really helped me pull myself out of depression when I was going through my D. I will give her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't mean exactly that proving trust is the same as abuse.

In talking with my XW, she knew fairly early on that she screwed up royally when she divorced me. She tried to contact me but I ignored her repeatedly until she got the hint. I was not really ready for her to be back in my life and she was nowhere ready either. She actually said the other day "Thank you for recognizing that I wasn't ready to talk to you yet." She knows what she did and I think she understands what the consequences were for me emotionally, although she can't really know 100% since it's never happened to her.

I agree that my ICs advice [censored]. Not because she is wrong, but because it is so impractically hard to do that without the benefit of blind faith.

This is a very difficult process.

[SteveLW]

Please note, I adore Vanilla. She is awesome and I miss her. But I do not agree that requiring someone to earn back trust is abuse.

[Joe2017]

Journaling:
Been feeling depression creeping in. XW continues to try to make me feel safe with her actions but it is not enough. She does not understand my pain, and she is not patient enough right now. I have trust issues, sure. I also do not feel safe with her yet. That will take more time.

We have been arguing a few times a week because I have so many triggers, and she can't understand why the same triggers get me over and over. I think she believes if we talk about it once, then that is enough. Obviously it is not. We don't have much time together during the week and it is difficult to make quality time for us to have heart to hearts.

This may not last much longer. I am composing my thoughts and I am going to write a detailed letter explaining why I feel how I feel, and how it is normal for me to take as long as it takes to recover. I have some videos I'd like her to watch with me about recovering from an affair.

If she cannot adjust and make the communication changes I need to progress through this process, I think I may need to hit pause on this R. Either take a break, or just break up entirely.

Tough call, but what's best for me is what's important.