What I learned from Wife's MLC- Part2

[kiro]

I forgot to mention that I asked her bluntly if she had slept with other men. She said of course not, and didn’t where I was getting such ideas. But I confronted her that I happened to know by coincidence that many times, she wasn’t spending the nights at her home. I got the usual “are you spying on me?” and then didn’t get a straightforward answer about whete she was spending those nights.

So I definitely want to move cautiously and don’t want to havd any high expectations because I still see many Red Flags:
- She still blames it all on me
- She hasn’t done the inner work to look at her issues and work on them
- I still don’t think she’s totally honest
- I am the one who initiated the contact, which is a breach of DBing principles. The worry is that she may still be hesitant and not committed to do what it takes.

I’d like to get as much advise as possible.

What should I do? Should I still seek an official Legal Separation to protect myself? Or should I go forward with joined therapy sessions? Or should we do both?

[Grace21]

So I definitely want to move cautiously and don’t want to havd any high expectations because I still see many Red Flags:
- She still blames it all on me
- She hasn’t done the inner work to look at her issues and work on them
- I still don’t think she’s totally honest
- I am the one who initiated the contact, which is a breach of DBing principles. The worry is that she may still be hesitant and not committed to do what it takes.

I haven't read your whole sitch, but will backtrack and do so. With that said, this is spot on for my sitch, with the exception H reached out to OW and she's trying to dig her claws in deep (trying to convince him to purchase a place together). I have no evidence she is living with him now, I think she still lives with her H. But, haven't asked or tried to find out.

I think the big thing is to let them start making these changes on their own first. I reached out to my H this week to ask him whether he was with his OW. Against Dbing rules, for sure. It went downhill from there, the blame on me, no movement to want to heal, etc.

We've had some pleasant, benign exchanges since then. But I'm not initiating any R talks. He knows where I stand, in spite of his blame.

I don't think you, or I, for that matter should believe anything they say. I don't think MC will help you one bit unless she is truly on board. Been there, done that. Got nowhere.

Good luck on your journey.

[Davide]

Kiro,

I would proceed with EXTREME caution. There are so many red flags there that seem to indicate that your W still isn't ready for a R. You don't need to proceed with the D, but I would not jump back into any type of R or even MC with her.

My sitch is not all that different from yours right now. I am drawing up the paperwork for D myself and my W is pushing back saying that she isn't ready for it, and even bringing up the possibility of R. But like yours, my W simply hasn't done the work she needs to do on herself and is a mess. She's not ready for a R. My W also doesn't really recognize the fact that she walked out on the MR, not that she blames it on me, but she doesn't accept responsibility. The big difference is that in my case my W does have an OM (to be fair, it probably started after our separation), and that is an easy deal-breaker for me. I won't entertain an R conversation while she has an OM. But even if she didn't. I wouldn't want to get back with someone who is unsure if they want to be with me.

I don't know anything about the legal stuff, but I would back off a ton. If she wants to work towards R, you have to let her do it. That means, don't initiate any more R talks. Also what ground rules would you need from her in order to even take her back? How can she show you that she has done the work of self-growth? How can she show you she is honest? How can she show you that she takes responsibility for her actions. You need to see consistent actions over a long period of time, not just words.

[kiro]

Ovrrnbw and Grace, I agree but here are a few particularities on my Sitch:

- BD was 1 year and 7 months ago. This is the first and only time since then that she expresses her feelings so openly, shows some sort of remorse (albeit hesitantly and indirectly), talks about some good things we had during our MR, and mainly the first time that she shows a genuine interest in R. There is a definite and noticeable change in her attitude after this relatively long period that lasted 19 months.

- The alternative if I hadn’t called her was an ugly one: we were headed to a legal battle that would have cost us a lot of money, a possible financial ruin for me (I may have had to sell my house, move to a cheap apartment, take my kids out of private school, etc.), would have damaged our relationship forever with dramatic consequences to our kids wellbeing. I had to do something to save my family from further damage.I didn’t call her with the intention of R. I just wanted to handle our disagreement peacefully away from courts and lawyers. The conversation then evolved naturally... I was not pursuing her.

- An important thing about my Sitch is that we almost had zero contact for over 12 months. I followed the N-C rule for all that duration.

- My W has always had communication challenges. She has a hard time expressing her feelings. She can be shy, dependent, easily intimidated, and has low self esteem (I have my issues too). I know she needs to fix that on her own, but I have to take that into account because she has never learned to be assertive. She communicates in a very indirect way.

- I just think that a few sessions with a good therapist could solve our communication problem in general and help both of us see things clearer and then make a decision either to start piecing or separate peacefully and fairly. Does that make sense?

[Grace21]

My W has always had communication challenges. She has a hard time expressing her feelings. She can be shy, dependent, easily intimidated, and has low self esteem (I have my issues too). I know she needs to fix that on her own, but I have to take that into account because she has never learned to be assertive. She communicates in a very indirect way.

This is a non-starter. First, you are explaining away a core characteristic that to me, would be on the top of the list to work on (for herself, first). Your making excuses for her behavior. When I asked me H why he wouldn't turn to me when he was so miserable, he said "we've never had that type of communication in our marriage". I call BS. He chose to turn to his OW because she was a quick fix to make him feel better. He blames it on the marriage dynamics, not on his own ability to express what he feels.
he needs.

You can go to MC, and see where it takes you. Like I said, did that. Went to a counselor that specializes in communication. H was not receptive, and it went absolutely nowhere (although it helped me to have the courage to speak up. And that, I guess, is something).

[kiro]

I would proceed with EXTREME caution. There are so many red flags there that seem to indicate that your W still isn't ready for a R. You don't need to proceed with the D, but I would not jump back into any type of R or even MC with her.

I don't know anything about the legal stuff, but I would back off a ton. If she wants to work towards R, you have to let her do it. That means, don't initiate any more R talks. Also what ground rules would you need from her in order to even take her back? How can she show you that she has done the work of self-growth? How can she show you she is honest? How can she show you that she takes responsibility for her actions. You need to see consistent actions over a long period of time, not just words.

Thanks Davide

I agree and here is probably what I’ll do: get my L’s opinion just in case and then wait and see what W will do next.

I just want to clarify that I never had an intention to go into R or MC now. What J was suggesting is joined therapy sessions while living separately to resolve our communication issues and have a professional help us both communicate what we want. Like you say in your questions, I will need to see a lot criteria met before agreeing to consider R.

[kiro]

This is a non-starter. First, you are explaining away a core characteristic that to me, would be on the top of the list to work on (for herself, first). Your making excuses for her behavior. When I asked me H why he wouldn't turn to me when he was so miserable, he said "we've never had that type of communication in our marriage". I call BS. He chose to turn to his OW because she was a quick fix to make him feel better. He blames it on the marriage dynamics, not on his own ability to express what he feels.
he needs.

Excellent point Grace. This is exactly why I needed advice. You are absolutely right. She is starting to open her eyes and see the damage she has done. At the same time, she is realizing that the grass is not greener after D and that she had a luxurious and comfortable life before. But it’s still all about her selfish interests. She still hasn’t acknowledged what she did and hasn’t taken responsibility for her actions. She still has a long way to go.

[bubbs16]

Ovrrnbw and Grace, I agree but here are a few particularities on my Sitch:

- BD was 1 year and 7 months ago. This is the first and only time since then that she expresses her feelings so openly, shows some sort of remorse (albeit hesitantly and indirectly), talks about some good things we had during our MR, and mainly the first time that she shows a genuine interest in R. There is a definite and noticeable change in her attitude after this relatively long period that lasted 19 months.

- The alternative if I hadn’t called her was an ugly one: we were headed to a legal battle that would have cost us a lot of money, a possible financial ruin for me (I may have had to sell my house, move to a cheap apartment, take my kids out of private school, etc.), would have damaged our relationship forever with dramatic consequences to our kids wellbeing. I had to do something to save my family from further damage.I didn’t call her with the intention of R. I just wanted to handle our disagreement peacefully away from courts and lawyers. The conversation then evolved naturally... I was not pursuing her.

- An important thing about my Sitch is that we almost had zero contact for over 12 months. I followed the N-C rule for all that duration.

- My W has always had communication challenges. She has a hard time expressing her feelings. She can be shy, dependent, easily intimidated, and has low self esteem (I have my issues too). I know she needs to fix that on her own, but I have to take that into account because she has never learned to be assertive. She communicates in a very indirect way.

- I just think that a few sessions with a good therapist could solve our communication problem in general and help both of us see things clearer and then make a decision either to start piecing or separate peacefully and fairly. Does that make sense?

my w has always had issues communicating her feelings to me as well. she would just hold them inside for month and months and then just BLOW UP AT ME out of nowhere. Im like why didnt you come to me if thats how you were feeling ?

[paco123]

K,
Good to hear from you; was worried about you.

As I understand your post, the ONLY decision point right now is: should you jointly meet with a professional who can help facilitate communications?

Where communications will lead is anybody's guess: smoother divorce negotiations; greater understanding of where each of you is, with no expectations; agreement to talk about whether you want to talk about relationships.

Is this right?

As long as it is clear to you and W that communications are not about moving toward some predetermined outcome, I don't think it is a waste of time. Speaking for my own sitch, the joint sessions W and I had late last year was extremely helpful to both of us. It did not lead to reconciliation, but it did help me understand much better W's frame of mind. It also moved W away from blaming me for everything towards greater accountability.

[FlySolo]

Hi Kiro -

I was worried about you too.

I guess the advice on whether to pursue MC is dependent on our own experiences. My experience with it was that it made things worse. It gave my H a forum to blame me for everything that was wrong in his life. A soap box upon which he could set fire to our life. All I could do was sit there silently, beg or apologies. Later, when I asked him why he said all he said "because I needed to justify the way I felt". By then I was tired of fighting I just quietly walked out of the room.

I will say that MR counselling can help if both parties have the same goal and you are both willing to see the process through to the end (whatever end that may be). Be prepared to have everything thrown at you, including the kitchen sink. Therapy is like stripping away the layers. The upper layers are where our resentment and anger lives. Beneath that is anger and beneath that our disappointment our lives have passed us by whilst we were waiting for our life to begin. And each of these layers is protected by a narrative we have written, designed to lay blame at the feet of others and protect us from the truth, that we and only we, are responsible for our lives.

All I am saying Kiro, is be prepared to validate and then validate and then validate some more, all the whilst putting your own feelings to the side.

Hugs K - if you decide to do it, and it all gets too much, come back here and have a good old fashioned rant.

FS.