I Was a Jerk (Part 1)

[Gekko]

I am also still contemplating whether to investigate if the W is having an EA/PA.

What would change for you if she were in some kind of affair?

I can't predict exactly what impact it would have (beyond the emotion) and what I might do, but the possible big changes would be:

1. Financial: W has more assets and income due to stock options. If we part amicably (WAW instead of WW) I would say we each keep what is in our own accounts, I would not chase after any of her $$ (which is marital property). If she has been lying and cheating, I may be inclined to seek a 50/50 split, which may result in an extra $50K in my pocket and may impact my ability to keep the house.

2. Timeline: My overhead is going to go up by about $2500/month after D. Every month I delay I save that money. I might not be very agreeable to move things along is she has been cheating.

3. Living Arrangements: If she is having an A I would put the full court press on her immediately moving out.

4. Disclosure: I may expose the A, including to the W of the OM if he has one, as well as to our friends and family. I understand this may not be DBing but I would be looking hard at doing this.


5. Recon: Not sure if recon is possible for me if there is an A.

6. Overall Dynamic: the whole D dynamic changes if there is a verified A in my view. The story of the end of the M is completely different. How I would treat W would probably be much different. I will hurt more but might detach more quickly.

These are just some initial thoughts.

Thanks for the links R2C, looks like I have more homework!

[Ready2Change]

Lots of homework. knowledge is power. The more options you are aware of, the better. Of course it makes choosing one more difficult.

My understanding is MWD is against exposure. If you still decide to go down that path, please read this thread before doing so:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039619&page=all

[MoveFrwd]

If she has been lying and cheating, I may be inclined to seek a 50/50 split, which may result in an extra $50K in my pocket and may impact my ability to keep the house.

If she is having an A I would put the full court press on her immediately moving out.

How I would treat W would probably be much different.

It sounds like youre saying
"if W is having an affair, I would want to punish her."

Why do you think you feel that way?

[Gekko]

Had a recent convo with W:

First, regarding telling the kids, she wants to tell them right away. I asked her what she was planning to say, and W said 'that we have decided to D, that we love them, etc etc." I said we have not decided anything, You decided. I won't lie or try to mislead them. W replied that we should not be blaming each other or talking poorly about each other, its not good for the kids and if forced she would explain that I treated her badly, that I was mean to her, and that she has been very unhappy. I agreed that we should not give the kids specifics, but said I will not lead them to believe this is my decision and that I want this. I told her she can say "we are getting D" as a factual statement, but not that we have decided to. I also told her this is one of the most important conversations we will have with the kids and I want her to write it down first so I can see it and edit it. We don't read from a script, but put it in writing so we can see how it sounds.

Regarding my treatment of her, I validated and expressed that I understand what I was doing, and the reasons behind it. W said she was not innocent and I asked how so. W said that "apparently" she has been a raging beeatch to me for years. I probably should have ratified that with a facial expression and a shrug and ended it there, but instead I said "that wasn't a very convincing admission". W then asked for an explanation of her behavior from my perspective. I recapped what I told her many years ago - that she has a nasty mean streak and criticized me relentlessly, that I asked her to get counseling and she didn't, that I asked her to talk to her family about this part of her personality with the hope she would listen to them when they told her yes, you can be horrible, but she never talked to anyone, and I told her I grew to be miserable, withdrew from her and developed some real ahole behavior as a defense mechanism. But that I realized now my response was not helpful to the M.

W said that my bad behavior pre-dated the time when I say she started her major criticism of me, which puts us pre-M. I asked why did you marry me? W said she didn't know. I took all this as WAW script but maybe I'm wrong. W then asked me if I thought the M could be salvaged, and I said I don't know. W said she does not believe it can be salvaged and doesn't understand why I don't feel the same way. I said that while I have tried to get things back on track, I could have done more, but that she wasn't trying at all. I said I don't know what the outcome would be if we both really tried. W acknowledged she has not been trying, that she believes I should have done the work over the past several years. That is where I let the convo die.

It was a very very calm discussion on both sides, almost clinical and matter-of-fact. I am expecting some 2x4's for getting into R talk but the W initiated and I responded. I didn't feel in the moment that I was saying too much, it was a pretty simple explanation of my view and just regurgitated convo's from long ago. I think W knows she has some issues but does not appreciate their extent and her impact on the people closest to her. I had and have no designs on trying to blame her to her face, but she seemed to want my take so I gave it to her as clinically and concisely as possible. I suppose the alternative is to deflect, but that didn't feel like the right play.

Anyway, looks like we will be telling the kids sometime over the next few weeks, I will keep the board posted.

[Ready2Change]

There will be more convos. I put my two cents. Hopefully you can use some of this next time.

First, regarding telling the kids, she wants to tell them right away. I asked her what she was planning to say, and W said 'that we have decided to D, that we love them, etc etc." I said we have not decided anything, You decided. I won't lie or try to mislead them.

Perfect.

W replied that we should not be blaming each other or talking poorly about each other, its not good for the kids and if forced she would explain that I treated her badly, that I was mean to her, and that she has been very unhappy.

H:"W, I am sorry for hurting you in the past. Looking back, I can see how horrible my behavior was. I want us both to be happy."

I agreed that we should not give the kids specifics, but said I will not lead them to believe this is my decision and that I want this. I told her she can say "we are getting D" as a factual statement, but not that we have decided to. I also told her this is one of the most important conversations we will have with the kids and I want her to write it down first so I can see it and edit it. We don't read from a script, but put it in writing so we can see how it sounds.

Perfect.

Regarding my treatment of her, I validated and expressed that I understand what I was doing, and the reasons behind it. W said she was not innocent and I asked how so. W said that "apparently" she has been a raging beeatch to me for years.

My X wife uses "apparently". Someone has told her you called her this. Man up and apologize for this immature behavior.

H:"W, I am sorry I called you this. I was immature and frustrated. I see now that we were not communicating properly."

W then asked for an explanation of her behavior from my perspective. I recapped what I told her many years ago - that she has a nasty mean streak and criticized me relentlessly, that I asked her to get counseling and she didn't, that I asked her to talk to her family about this part of her personality with the hope she would listen to them when they told her yes, you can be horrible, but she never talked to anyone, and I told her I grew to be miserable, withdrew from her and developed some real ahole behavior as a defense mechanism. But that I realized now my response was not helpful to the M.

I think this is OK. Maybe less details about her. Your goal right now is to make her think differently about you. This will lead to her feeling different about you.

W said that my bad behavior pre-dated the time when I say she started her major criticism of me, which puts us pre-M. I asked why did you marry me?

H:"I have done some things in the past that I am not proud of. I am sorry"

W then asked me if I thought the M could be salvaged, and I said I don't know.

H:"I am not sure. I want us both to be happy. I believe we owe it to our kids to work on the issues that got us to this point. If it saves our marriage or not, it should at least help us co-parent."

It was a very very calm discussion on both sides, almost clinical and matter-of-fact.

Perfect.

[Gekko]

If she has been lying and cheating, I may be inclined to seek a 50/50 split, which may result in an extra $50K in my pocket and may impact my ability to keep the house.

If she is having an A I would put the full court press on her immediately moving out.

How I would treat W would probably be much different.

It sounds like youre saying
"if W is having an affair, I would want to punish her."

Why do you think you feel that way?

I sure understand that how it seems. I think there are a few things going on with this mindset. I have always been a person who desires respect and conducts himself in a way to try and obtain respect. Generally, I have never subscribed to the oft-cited theory that respect must be first earned. I believe everyone's default should be to show respect and act accordingly. I understand the concept of loss of respect and how actions can cause this to happen, however. But certain responses to a loss of respect are never acceptable and I believe should receive consequences.

For instance, if I were to find out that one of my long-time trusted staff had been lying and cheating me on hours or in some other way, I would take that as a huge sign of disrespect - not only "how could you do that", but "how could you do that to ME". It's very personal. I would fire them immediately and have security escort them out. If I found out that a long-time trusted business partner was screwing me over on a deal, I would sue them for breach of contract and make them hurt as much as the contract terms allowed. This mindset flows from my issue with respect and my morality - I don't lie, cheat, steal or screw people over - ANYONE - let alone those closest to me. Doing so is the ultimate betrayal in my view.

Infidelity has always been a major trigger for me. I had an older female cousin who I was/am very close to, and when I was in college her husband cheated on her and left her. She was absolutely destroyed. I will never forget how she fell into my arms sobbing when she told me. I didn't know what to say or how to comfort her. I wrapped my arms around her and it felt like I was trying to hold a million fragments together. It was horrible. I can still feel that moment as I write about it now. I promised myself that I would never do that to another human being EVER. And I never have and never will. I just expect the same courtesy and enough respect to not have that done to me.

Sorry for the ramble. Not even sure if I really answered your question!

[MoveFrwd]

My general opinion is that most marriages are caused by some breakdown which is attributable to both parties. Nobody is perfect and everybody is adding some type of contamination to the relationship. I dont feel like it is a good spot to put yourself in to judge who is worse or what action is more or less contaminating. I think it's a much better place to own and repair your own attributes and fight for what you believe is fair.

This is from your first post.

I withdrew emotionally and physically in the process. I am Alpha and went overboard with it, crossing the line and being a jerk, feeling that I was in a power struggle for who was top dog in the M. I also was conditioned to receive criticism constantly, so when I came home from work I was just waiting for the first strike to come my way from W, and was ready for a fight. After awhile, I began to hear criticism in many benign statements from W, where "did you wipe the table down" sounded like "why haven't you wiped the table down yet?" I would get defensive in those moments as well.

So my understanding based on your most recent post is that if your W is having an affair, whatever that is trumps all else. That your morality of "not screwing other people over" goes out the window because she has hurt you? It feels very "eye for an eye" and I dont see that as a 180 for you. I dont see that as a way of being empathetic or collaborative.

I am not suggesting that what she may be doing is right. or fair. or compassionate. or anything like that. I am not condoning her (theoretical) actions. What Im saying is that it is a symptom of all of the underlying issues that you both have presented to the relationship. I think your focus is better placed on you and what you need to do going forward.

But that said, I think it may not be worst idea to gather 'intel' just to know what you are dealing with Theres no sense in considering how to repair a relationship that has 3 people in it.

[SteveLW]

My suggestion would be just to start DBing. 180 on your bad behavior, yes. But also GAL. And detach! As MoveFrwd said, most marital breakdowns are the result of bad behavior on both Ss part. And that means that adultery is a SYMPTOM of that and not the cause.

Both people are unhappy. Someone of the opposite sex takes an interest in one of them. It is new and exciting. It makes them forget how bad their marriage is. At first they just try to keep it as a friendship, but as they share intimate details of each other's lives the attraction gets stronger, until they move to some shows of affections. Long, lingering, whole body hugs. Maybe a peck hello and goodbye on the lips. But it continues to escalate until the anticipation builds and they decide to cross the line into a full blown affair.

Notice the first step. Both people are unhappy. For context you should look up "Ways to affair proof your marriage". It is very helpful to look back and see the mistakes you made leading up to this point. Lack of connection. Stopping going on dates. Etc. The point is that we often laser focus on the affair, when if we try to fix the marriage itself, sometime the affair just goes away.

Even if your S is in an active affair, DBing is your path forward. It may save your marriage. It may not. But it will save you.

[Ready2Change]

I did not cry/beg/plead but expressed my surprise even though things had not been good. W was incredulous that I was surprised.

It was a very very calm discussion on both sides, almost clinical and matter-of-fact.

I am expecting some 2x4's for getting into R talk but the W initiated and I responded.

she seemed to want my take so I gave it to her as clinically and concisely as possible.

Based off of these statements, I believe R talks are OK for you when SHE initiates. You sound like you are in control of your emotions.

One of you 180's is "Not being a jerk". Any time she brings up past hurt, be compassionate, do not justify, but rather apologize like the examples I gave you above.





Are my example statements TRUE statements for you? Speaking the truth is very important.

[Gekko]

Thanks Steve and MF, your points are well taken. I feel like when I am DBing at my best I oddly don't seem to care about investigating an A. When the feelings of possibly being dissed arise is when I start to get amped-up to investigate.

Great link R2C and yes your comments and suggestions are spot-on.

I think I made my point concisely with W regarding my issues with her behavior, namely the nasty streak, harsh criticism, sarcasm and disrespectful and insulting comments. I know this may not be DBing to the letter but she asked for it. I planted the seed many years ago about this behavior and my suggestion that she ask her family for confirmation that she acted in such ways and to also seek counseling, none of which happened. And it may never.

W has never apologized to me for anything, ever, and it's not her way to admit fault, so I have zero expectations that she will ever really examine herself. Best of luck to the next fella...What I am interested to see is her family's reaction to the D and their comments to me. They have made many comments over the years about her mean streak so I'm guessing they will figure that is playing a role in the D. Not that it matters to the M, but their comments are some cold comfort that I am not insane or overly sensitive.

W made a few of her usual sarcastic jabs at me last night, the kind of stuff there is no reason to say other than to insult and put-down. She can't seem to help herself. I entirely ignored the first remark, which I am liking more and more as a response (the non-response response). After the second biting sarcastic remark, I just smirked a little and shook my head, after which she said "what?", pleading ignorance to how nasty it was. W then said that based on my reaction that she guessed we were not going to be friends. I said not when she talks to me in that way, and I left the room. She called after me twice but I ignored her and moved on with a project, and that was it. She needs some help for sure.