I too go back and forth between wondering if this situation is a gift or a curse. Perhaps it's both.
I do NOT think it is NGS to be hopeful for your future if it does not contain W in it. I think it is healthy to see that your future can be positive no matter WHAT it has in store.
Thank you, Yail (((HUGS). I was considering if the GUILT about any potential hope was NGS, not having hope itself, and I apologize for the confusion.
Telling myself that things will be okay regardless of the outcome is a rather big mental step for me. I tell my students that I try to be both an optimist and a realist—some days the optimism wins out, other days the ‘realism’ of what awaits me potentially without W looms in front of me and can be hard to accept. But the optimism is beginning to gradually overtake my mind—slowly.
Originally Posted by Yail
This is the amazing gift of hope for the future. Stay with this thought process. It is so much better than fear. You're correct that you don't know what the future will hold, but I really applaud that you are doing: seeing something potentially new in your future, and not running from it. That's really the best we can do.
I really appreciate the affirmation and validation. It’s hard to not give in to the fear. One of my less attractive tendencies that I’ve had to fight at various times in my life is running from things. Some times in my life I’ve been super-good about facing things head on and crushing it—other times, not so much. A personal 180 for me recently has been TO NOT RUN from things, though once again, the temptation is hard.
No matter what, there will be something / someone new—MR 2.0, or hopefully someone else, in time.
Originally Posted by Yail
Also, regarding your hesitency at finding someone who shares your faith and values: I think we all feel that way. Folks on the "other side" feel the same way. Isn't that interesting? I find it so. I'm gay but I have the same fears you do - that I won't find someone who is right for me and my values and interests. We will find our people that are right for us. We did it once - we can do it again.
Thank you for your honesty.
What is one of the shocks about all this for me is that I really didn’t think S / D was on the table for us. But now it is. When I dated / married W, I thought we were so ‘in sync’ on many things, and that we had relatively similar values. While in some respects I have changed (we all change over time), the changes I’ve seen in her (and that she’s admitted to) kinda shock me—the embrace of birth control over my objections (I know people do disagree over that, but this was a value I held to throughout dating / pursuit, and I held it as a personal boundary / condition of dating / marriage), S / D. I don’t think W’s current work environment helps her in this regard—a large amount of her coworkers are S / D, and her federal agency had a rather high-profile adultery scandal not that long ago.
I may have mentioned this a while back in a different post, but.....when I look back on my single early young-adulthood (I know—I’m only 35, so I hopefully have a long life ahead of me to give to someone, MR 2.0 or not), I do seem to remember that every now and then (at least once a year or so—I know, probably sounds amateurish and that my game is weak), there always seemed to be a woman that I was interested in or who was interested in me—and that a good amount of these women held values rather similar to mine. That, for a good amount of time, there was a period of time in my life where I relatively consistently had someone who was interested in me, or I was into, or both. That I had options, basically. I wonder if that will be the case down the road, too.
W will want an answer from me re: parenting plan soon, and I talked about that with L yesterday. The ‘doing some research’ line is something that L suggested.
How would this sound as a response? Please add suggestions or affirmations as necessary.
“I’ve been doing some research, and what I’ve found is that if you want to separate, then you are welcome to find your own place and begin that arrangement for yourself, and you are welcome to assist me in parenting duties while you are here. I feel that it is my best interest (and that of the kids’) for me to continue to be here.”
I thought about it and the nesting arrangement that you suggested doesn't work for me. You are welcome to stay here as long as it takes for you to find another place. When you have time we can discuss a parenting plan while living together in this house.
I would give her a chance to respond. She will more then likely become aggressive because she's not getting her way. If she becomes aggressive and starts raising her voice tell her you will not have this conversation until she calms down and speaks to you like an adult. If she refuses walk away.
If she rebuttals with anything other then the offer you presented tell her that you have thought it through and your decision is final.
W will want an answer from me re: parenting plan soon, and I talked about that with L yesterday. The ‘doing some research’ line is something that L suggested.
How would this sound as a response? Please add suggestions or affirmations as necessary.
“I’ve been doing some research, and what I’ve found is that if you want to separate, then you are welcome to find your own place and begin that arrangement for yourself, and you are welcome to assist me in parenting duties while you are here. I feel that it is my best interest (and that of the kids’) for me to continue to be here.”
I agree to lean a bit more towards what LH19 suggested. Bring it up as your own need/thought, and only share you did research if she asks. Make it come from you not an outside source.
"I reviewed what you proposed" - this shows you listened to her thoughts
"and thought about the (description) arrangement. I think it would be best if I (what you wish for yourself)" - you considered her idea, and you share what you want to do for you. Not what you think she should do, only what your own actions will be. She can work around your actions assuming you've made them rationally and with yours and your kids' best interests in the forefront. It sounds like you have, along with assistance from L. Good.
While you don't want to be lengthy, add a sentence or two if you feel it is necessary to be clear. You can mention the research you did if she is asking where this comes from. But do be brief.
I think you give her a moment to respond as long as she does it in a constructive way with no tantrums. If she has major changes let her know you'll consider them and get back to her on _____. Stick to your word. If it's a minor adjustment and you're okay with it I see no reason to delay an affirmative. I'm not a fan of games in DBing.
If she doesn't respond I think it's fine to just leave. Try to have relaxed body language so she knows you're not just being contrary to her plan - you're actively trying to find what works best for you and the kids.
This advice may not be "strict" DBing according to some. But personally I'm an advocate of being honest but firm and leaving it at that.
I would give her a chance to respond. She will more then likely become aggressive because she's not getting her way. If she becomes aggressive and starts raising her voice tell her you will not have this conversation until she calms down and speaks to you like an adult. If she refuses walk away.
If she rebuttals with anything other then the offer you presented tell her that you have thought it through and your decision is final.
My 2 cents. I would trade out speaks to like an adult with speaks to with respect or something similar. From my experience when I would tell Ex that I want and adult conversation or be spoken to as an adult, she would take that as a dig and would try to escalate things.
H(37) W(35) D8, D5, S3 T20, M13 BD 8/31/18 EA Discovered 9/13/18 Mediation 10/3/18 W files for D 10/12/18 W moves out 11/10/18 EA confirmed 12/25/18 D Final 1/10/19
W and I had a very long chat tonight, and I’ll try to recap some of the highlights.
She wanted my thoughts on the parenting plan.....I basically said what LH proposed.....and she did NOT take that well at all. She basically went all fire and brimstone on me and said that I should take what she is proposing (she is proposing joint custody—not primary custody), and that I should really think about all this because what kinda judge will side with me if I choose to fight this—that judges will side with the mother and award primary custody TO HER.
She basically also threatened me with the fact that she could start the divorce proceedings and get a court order to get me out of the house—that it could always come down to that. She also asked me to consider if I could really afford the place on my own (I can’t—but neither can she by herself), but I’m not sure what she knows about CA community property laws regarding assets / debts (she believes that my credit cards would not be split because the accounts were opened BEFORE we were married, which is true; however, what I believe is that any debt incurred DURING the marriage would be split—I don’t think she considers that, if that is indeed true, and if it is true, I’m wondering what that may mean for her thoughts).
Now that part is interesting....because then she launched into, and this will sound crass, basically the typical WAS spiel. That’s she is DONE, that’s she not been happy, that she’s never been happy, that she’s told me to change this and that and that I never did or never would, and that she checked out long ago. She also talked about how much she was HURT in the last few years and that I caused her so much HURT....and I am indeed sad about that and told her that my intent was never to hurt her. What I am afraid of though is that she could escalate and use her ‘hurt-ness’ as a claim of abuse to basically evict me.
After a lot of fire and brimstone and posturing, and my attempts and validating (which she can’t stand because to her they seem fake), we finally started to get in to some real talking, and for that she thanked me. And I got an ILY from her for the first time in a long time—that she loves me, and will always love me, no matter what happens. What she really wanted earlier this month was to know my thoughts on the conversation that we had during dinner on Friday the 4th. I asked her ‘would it matter?’ She basically was all ‘try me.’ I basically echoed something Steve posted about ‘I love you, and I believe that what we have can be saved if we can put the work in, but I’m not going to force her to stay.’ And I do believe that, and I tried to communicate that to her. But she also started to acknowledge that she could continue to try. But also that I would have to try—she admitted that she wants a partner, and she brought up examples of how I didn’t do that or haven’t done that (that I didn’t hold her hand through every contraction when she was pregnant with Isaac because I was looking at my phone—I know, I was stupid for that and I feel so guilty, but I was there and with her when she said she needed me—when she could feel the contractions coming she would call me over and I would be right there when she called. I know, 180–and man do I feel like a POS husband for that.)
I asked her if she would be wiling to do MC—she said yes, but a secular one, not a Catholic or Christian one (not Catholic because she doesn’t want to be shamed re: birth control; not Christian because she doesn’t want any ‘submissive or obedient’ talk directed her way).
Supposedly, our October conversation where she floated the possibility of a break or an S allegedly sealed the divorce option in her eyes because I ‘freaked out’ in her eyes. That I talked about how wives should be submissive and obedient towards their husbands (when did I say that, or if I did, the meaning was totally lost—WTF), or that because she was doing the IUD that I would consider having sex with her sinful and that I didn’t want to participate in her sin or something like that (once again, WTF did I say that)? I haven’t been asking for sex not because I find it sinful, but because it is ‘pursuit,’ and I’ve realized that she hasn’t been wanting that from me for a while.
She told me that I would need to put myself aside, not only for the parenting plan, but also the implication is that if I want any chance / future with her, I would need to do that with her. I thought I’ve done it before, but apparently I have not. And she brought up the birth control / IUD angle—this may not be DB principles, but I tried to affirm for her that this is an instance where I would be willing to put that aside and lay that down—and I recall telling her at that time that although I didn’t like the IUD and am not okay with this, I’m also not willing to blow up our marriage over this.
She feels like she would be a better parent without me—that she is always having to walk on eggshells around me—hence, the bird-nesting proposal, but also the separation, in general.
Basically: She wants to get paperwork started, file for divorce, but can’t do it without a signed custody agreement (hence, the parenting plan for bird-nesting)—but what she wants is basically time apart FROM ME (which I’ve never really understood—she gets tons of time for travel for work—yes I know she’s working, but she would also tell me that she would have all this downtime after her work hours where she could relax / sleep / be by herself—and all that wasn’t enough?) She admits that this time apart now would be for her to process her feelings, and she warned me to not read too much into this. So, detachment and no expectations. I wonder if she’s been DB’ing. I actually see a faint glimmer of hope for our relationship—I could be totally wrong, but yeah no expectations.
What she wants to do is file for divorce to get the separation started, if that makes sense (to me that sounds backwards, but whatever). We do this bird-nesting thing (or whatever proposal we come up with) for about a year, and then sometime towards the end of that year we (re-)evaluate where we are at with everything—should we stay together, or actually continue to follow through with the divorce.
I guess what I need right now is: What should I do? I’ve tried DB’ing as best as I could the last couple of months, but if anything it’s pushed her further away from me, it seems like. My attempts at detaching and validation—have they been good enough? Well, if the goal is to get her back, the answer is clearly ‘no’—but that’s not the goal, especially now—for me, I’m coming to realize that detachment means not get s*cked into another person’s crazy—don’t let another person’s emotions affect you—even though it doesn’t seem like it now.
So—what should I do? 180s. Detach. Validate.
Did I screw things up even more? Or is there more hope? Or do I deserve a ton of 2x4s for tonight?
Honestly you should haven't discussed anything with her. You were not DBing. You were feeding the beast. Once she started the BS blame shifting and trashing your character you should have walked away.
Community property means anything incurred while M will be split equitably. So yes, unless you elect to keep your debt the courts will split it between you.
Do nothing. Stop talking to her about anything. Dont help her figure anything out. Why help her leave you? Just step back and focus on yourself. Shes spinning in circles and you reached out and got pulled in.
You cannot reason with them. It's just not possible. Just stop focusing on her and stop talking to her about everything.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
This is a tough one. I lean a bit away from "strict" DBing personally, so do take what I say with a grain of salt.
From what we know, your wife is WAW, not WW. I do think there is a slight difference.
I think putting a timeline on a separation is not a good idea if you went down that road. Emotions change quicklyk and just declaring an arbitrary end date won't make it better. What happens if 3 months in she starts reconsidering, but has too much pride to talk to you? What happens if it is 11 months in and she feels pressure - which may push her away? Just my two cents on that piece.
The fact that she mentioned eggshells is interesting. I think many of us know that feeling with our WASs. It's terrible. You don't feel like a full person, you don't feel like you have control, or that you matter.
The thing about walking on eggshells is that it isn't just "oh, S is being abusive/domineering/mean". My W had a strong personality but I never once was even remotely close to being afraid of her. In the beginning of our R I would stand up to her, but I got into this bad habit of just retreating instead. I had the eggshells feeling because I didn't want to rock the boat and put myself on the line by asking an uncomfortable question. In my own instance, it was about ME needing to take up more space.
I say this because it is my feeling as a woman. And from what you've said, she's feeling the pressure at having another child at a time that wasn't quite right for her. And the wanting a S is her cry for space. Coming home to a few hours of alone time is not space. I've been S for 2.5 months and only now do I feel strong again, like I can take on the world.
I don't know what your best course of action is, but I do want you to consider if these feelings might be where W is coming from. I think having some idea of where your W might be coming from is a strong tool. And I could be way off - this could be a ploy to get what she wants. But that's why I say WAS vs WW - from some folks' sitches it seems a WAS needs to be seen and heard, but a WW has affair fog to make them more insane.
continue what you're doing, and make note of what works. You got to a point of having a calm R talk after W was angry. What brought you there? That was a good de-escalation.
