Uncertain of What I Have (Thread 5)

[SteveLW]

She came up to me while I was washing bottles for YS, and she told me that she wants to resolve things between us before this September. Why? So she can go for her training this fall, and someone is retiring so she will be able to get a spot at her same office, with the same supervisor she currently has. I told her that I would need to think about that.

Ok I am not seeing how resolving things by September....or not... helps or prevents this in any way? This is pure manipulation, and trying to find a reason to move on her "proposal". This is typical WAW/WW thinking. "These two things are unrelated but if I can somehow link them then that gives me leverage to get him to move forward with MY plan."

I do see her being capable of anything at this point. Bo, you may want to start recording your interactions with her. To prove there is no emotional abuse. That if anything she is the abusive one (both verbally and emotionally). Also, talk to your L, but most of the time if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house. so she may try to continue to escalate. BE ON YOUR TOES. This means no throwing of things, no punching walls or anything else, etc. Plenty of WAWs have pushed their LBH to the point where they punch a car or break things in the house, and then use that to get them out of the house as a "threat of physical violence". Don't fall into that trap.

Hang in there, she is angry that you aren't "falling in line". Really that is a good thing.

[Bo562]

Here's the thing Bo, she probably does believe what she's saying, or at least wants to believe it. She's in full-on WAS mode and looking for reasons to justify her behavior and desire to end things. She no doubt has an enabler or two or three (male or female or both) that are offering her tons of validation right now, so they are telling her what she wants to hear (oh poor you, you've suffered so long, you are doing the right thing). So that feeds into her worldview. All you can do is detach from her as much as possible and keep your L informed of what's going on.

It’s at least her IC, probably the MIL, and who knows who else.

Part of posting here is journaling for me—so I can hash out the thoughts to the L later.

She also mentioned that the problems in our relationship come from both of us—which is true, and straight out of DB. But all I’m hearing is how I’M THE PROBLEM, and her implication to me is that I need to get my shiz together.

Well there's a newsflash.

And I straight up asked her: So, you said you don’t want to be my wife, but then you said you want to go to marriage counseling?

Dangling the carrot out there again. When she says these things are you now seeing it for the manipulation it is?

Yup. Just the inconsistencies make no sense at all. “I don’t want to be your wife.” “I’ll go to marriage counseling if....”

Honestly, at this point, why do I want to be married to, or reconcile with, someone who’s just so f@cking bananas right now?

What was your response to this? Hopefully you see now it's only a tactic to her. She doesn't give a rip about trying to salvage the M, not right now.

I told her I would need to think about that one (tried to go classic DB).

Wow she really goes for it in these R talks. Threats, manipulation tactics, incentives, offering hope, crushing hope. It's amazing to me that she (and many other WAS's) are not willing to negotiate a single point. It's "my way or we go to court and battle it out".

Right. If she really wants out, why not negotiate her way out a little more?

What does that mean about "resolving things"? Does she mean she wants the D completed by then?

I mentioned earlier that to separate (for any length of time), she would have to start the divorce paperwork (this sounds so bass-awkwards, but then again it is Cali). What she wants to do is get the custody squared away (parenting plan / bird-nesting or whatever), and the start the paperwork in the courts, we lived separated, and then re-assess whether we follow-through with legal divorce later (guessing September is about when she wants to re-assess). She’d be gone for 3-ish months by then, so she’d want to figure it out by then. I mean, we’d already be separated by then—it’s just that she’d be 3000 miles away for 3 additional months. Why not more separation? (I know, I know: unless she wants to GGW it up or A it up while she’s in training).

How so? Sounds to me like status quo. Nothing gained nothing lost over the previous similar talk. If you maintained your cool throughout then chalk it up as a success.

At least it felt like a big failure initially. I should have just walked away from her when she started emotionally wailing on me—between that and her rehashing the past, I feel like such a putz. Believe it or not, I’m not as emotionally worked up as I thought I would be. I’m considering whether or not I even want to still be involved with someone who is like this.

I’m seeing her statements / inconsistencies as part of the WAS fog.

I also didn’t escalate, which is huge for me, and a big contrast over prior dynamics. She wants responses but isn’t totally getting them, but she blames me for that anyway (you always, you never...)

[Bo562]

Ok I am not seeing how resolving things by September....or not... helps or prevents this in any way? This is pure manipulation, and trying to find a reason to move on her "proposal".

It helps...her. She gets ‘clarity’—she just wants to steamroll ahead on this. Hence why I asked to think about it.

She’s also said that she will put off this training if she absolutely has to—if the boys aren’t in a good place. But she wants to settle things with me (one way or the other) so she can move this forward, and then get the boys in a good place (I guess?)

Why should I help her leave me? And I have zero interest in vacating the household any sooner than I absolutely have to. Why—so she could later on claim abandonment? No thanks.

I do see her being capable of anything at this point. Bo, you may want to start recording your interactions with her. To prove there is no emotional abuse. That if anything she is the abusive one (both verbally and emotionally). Also, talk to your L, but most of the time if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house. so she may try to continue to escalate. BE ON YOUR TOES. This means no throwing of things, no punching walls or anything else, etc. Plenty of WAWs have pushed their LBH to the point where they punch a car or break things in the house, and then use that to get them out of the house as a "threat of physical violence". Don't fall into that trap.

I do, too. Who knows what may come next for her.

I’ll ask L about “if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house.”

I’m not a physically violent or aggressive person. I know she doesn’t want me like this now, but I know that she was (is?) into the Fifty Shades of Gray thing, so she wanted more sexual aggression from me, but I didn’t want to slide over into abuse, so I held back on that.

I’ll do my best to keep it together—I’m sure exercise wil help work out any aggression, or at least calm me down enough that I won’t get aggressive / violent later on.

Hang in there, she is angry that you aren't "falling in line". Really that is a good thing.

100% she is upset that I’m not doing what she wants. But she’s supposedly always been unhappy about that, and that’s what she wants me to change. She wants me to cooperate with her and put both of us aside for the sake of the kids.

What’s odd is that last night she’s accused me of anger towards her.

My naivety is showing—how is this (her anger on this) a good thing?

[Bo562]

Go ahead and 2x4 me for this if I need or deserve it....

On Tuesday, she went on about how she needs / wants a partner, and later mentioned that it is hard getting everyone out the door in the AM.

In an attempt to validate and listen to her, I offered a proposal: That I still get up on weekday school mornings early to shower / get dressed, but then I stick around until 6:45–7:00 or so to help with the boys and take some stuff down to her car to help with that.

I offered to help with the boys as much as I can in the AM, I still get up early to work on some work stuff early that I would instead bring home (like I would do at school).

The 180’s on this? Listening to her, proposing a solution (which may NOT be all that helpful as I think it could be but whatever), following through (she says she wants actions—not words from me, and I started that this morning, as she was home with the boys on Wednesday, and I helped take YS downstairs to the car on Thursday as I was home for faucet repairs).

Doing it to be more present to boys (and potentially avoid that I’m indifferent to her and the boys should it ever come to that later on), to prove to myself (and possibly her?) THAT I CAN CHANGE (and give a concrete example of that), but also to be a better father and husband (to W, or someone else down the road).

Of course, I could also be setting myself up to be used by her. I’ve heard it said that I shouldn’t make myself so available to her, and why should I make things easier for her especially if she wants to leave. I understand that, but I’m trying to do this for myself and the boys—keep that in the vision ahead of me.

[Wanted1]

She clearly doesn't know what she's talking about. There is no way a judge is going to ask a 6 year old kid what his wishes are. They do that when the kids are older (teenagers) to get an idea of what they want. A 6 year old doesn't know what he wants. They aren't mature enough to make such decisions.

The test that all jurisdictions use in custody situations is "best interest of the child."

Don't let her scare tactics and manipulation mess with you.

[SteveLW]

Ok I am not seeing how resolving things by September....or not... helps or prevents this in any way? This is pure manipulation, and trying to find a reason to move on her "proposal".

It helps...her. She gets ‘clarity’—she just wants to steamroll ahead on this. Hence why I asked to think about it.

She’s also said that she will put off this training if she absolutely has to—if the boys aren’t in a good place. But she wants to settle things with me (one way or the other) so she can move this forward, and then get the boys in a good place (I guess?)

Why should I help her leave me? And I have zero interest in vacating the household any sooner than I absolutely have to. Why—so she could later on claim abandonment? No thanks.

I do see her being capable of anything at this point. Bo, you may want to start recording your interactions with her. To prove there is no emotional abuse. That if anything she is the abusive one (both verbally and emotionally). Also, talk to your L, but most of the time if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house. so she may try to continue to escalate. BE ON YOUR TOES. This means no throwing of things, no punching walls or anything else, etc. Plenty of WAWs have pushed their LBH to the point where they punch a car or break things in the house, and then use that to get them out of the house as a "threat of physical violence". Don't fall into that trap.

I do, too. Who knows what may come next for her.

I’ll ask L about “if there is no physical abuse they are not going to order you out of the house.”

I’m not a physically violent or aggressive person. I know she doesn’t want me like this now, but I know that she was (is?) into the Fifty Shades of Gray thing, so she wanted more sexual aggression from me, but I didn’t want to slide over into abuse, so I held back on that.

I’ll do my best to keep it together—I’m sure exercise wil help work out any aggression, or at least calm me down enough that I won’t get aggressive / violent later on.

Hang in there, she is angry that you aren't "falling in line". Really that is a good thing.

100% she is upset that I’m not doing what she wants. But she’s supposedly always been unhappy about that, and that’s what she wants me to change. She wants me to cooperate with her and put both of us aside for the sake of the kids.

What’s odd is that last night she’s accused me of anger towards her.

My naivety is showing—how is this (her anger on this) a good thing?

Because you aren't letting her emotions dictate actions in your part. Some guys would have rolled over and just gave in. The good part of you doing what's best for you and your kids. Whether she gets angry about it or not it's irrelevant.

[Bo562]

She clearly doesn't know what she's talking about. There is no way a judge is going to ask a 6 year old kid what his wishes are. They do that when the kids are older (teenagers) to get an idea of what they want. A 6 year old doesn't know what he wants. They aren't mature enough to make such decisions.

The test that all jurisdictions use in custody situations is "best interest of the child."

Don't let her scare tactics and manipulation mess with you.

That’s the thing, Wanted—she totally believes she knows what she’s talking about. Either she’s correct, her research / assumptions are wrong, or she’s getting bad advice. I’m inclined to believe the last two.

What I am concerned about is the whole ‘best interest of the child’—especially with YS breast-feeding (until the fall, or about when she leaves for her training).

She cites the fact that judges supposedly side with the mother most (if not all) of the time.

And she could claim that I’m emotionally abusive and creating a toxic environment for the kids. She is painting the impression (right or not) that I could lose big on this—take the deal now.

I’m not necessarily willing to fight her on custody. I don’t want divorce, but I do acknowledge that co-parenting will be part of the reality if it gets that far. I just don’t want to leave the current residence. She doesn’t want to leave the children, either. But I’m not going to give up claims on living in our residence so easily.

She supposedly wants out of the MR so badly—why should I be the one to leave?

[ovrrnbw]

Bo,

I'm gonna go big picture here. It looks like you are spinning, just emotionally all over the place. Work on your detachment and some of these things will seem little, and you will be able to figure out more of this on your own.

You are letting her control your thoughts, moods, and actions when you should be in control.

You got this.

[AnotherStander]

I mentioned earlier that to separate (for any length of time), she would have to start the divorce paperwork (this sounds so bass-awkwards, but then again it is Cali). What she wants to do is get the custody squared away (parenting plan / bird-nesting or whatever), and the start the paperwork in the courts, we lived separated, and then re-assess whether we follow-through with legal divorce later (guessing September is about when she wants to re-assess). She’d be gone for 3-ish months by then, so she’d want to figure it out by then. I mean, we’d already be separated by then—it’s just that she’d be 3000 miles away for 3 additional months. Why not more separation? (I know, I know: unless she wants to GGW it up or A it up while she’s in training).

OK I think I get it. I'm wondering if she wants to rush this and get you to agree to everything because how else would she explain to the courts how she accused you of abuse and getting a RO against you or whatever, but then needing you to watch the kids while she's away for 3 months.

So can you clarify this just so we understand how close together or far apart the two of you are on an agreement:

- What custody agreement does she want? I think you've said it's 50-50 with the kids staying at home and the two of you switching in and out of the home (nesting)?

- What custody agreement do you want? I think all you've said is you don't want to leave home and you don't want the nesting agreement. But assuming S and D do happen, what agreement would you be OK with?

It sounds like you both can agree to 50-50, but you do not agree to nesting out of the house half the time. You would rather she move out and live elsewhere and then you do a 50-50 split like most of the separated/ divorced world does? If that's what you want, have you made that clear to her? It sounds like you just keep telling her you'll think about it, which just continues to make you look wishy-washy and indecisive. Whatever you want, tell her what it is and then stick to your guns. If she yells and screams and threatens to go to court then tell her you are prepared to do that. Also, tell her why you don't want a nesting arrangement. I don't think you've made that clear either. You say you want to stay in the house as long as possible, and that you don't want to give up time with the kids. But you WILL have to give up time with the kids, that is inevitable. And if you can't afford the house on your own then it is also inevitable that at some point you will have to leave it. With that in mind, what are your goals after S and D?

I'm reminded of when my ex said she was going to leave (separate) and I told her I would rather her stay and work on the M with me, but if she left I would not stop her and would support her regardless of her decision. A day or two later she asked me why SHE had to be the one to leave. I told her she was the one leaving the M and I should not be inconvenienced anymore that I already was being by it. She told me later that even though it made her mad at the time, she really respected how I handled things, I remained firm and consistent throughout and most of all- CALM. Remember the lighthouse analogy.

Why should I help her leave me? And I have zero interest in vacating the household any sooner than I absolutely have to. Why—so she could later on claim abandonment? No thanks.

The DB'ing mantra is don't help her, but don't interfere either. I think right now you are interfering by continuing to put her off with the "I need to think about it" comments. I told you before that if you want to think about it then tell her "I need to think this over, can we talk about it on Thursday evening?" or whatever date works for you. Don't just leave it open-ended. Again, you want to be decisive and confident.

She wants me to cooperate with her and put both of us aside for the sake of the kids.

Well that's not a bad thing. I mean she could have opened with "you need to leave and I want 95% custody, you get the kids every other weekend". The nesting arrangement is a compromise from where she could have started. I understand it doesn't work for you, but my point is she does appear to be thinking about the kids which is something at least.

Go ahead and 2x4 me for this if I need or deserve it....

On Tuesday, she went on about how she needs / wants a partner, and later mentioned that it is hard getting everyone out the door in the AM.

In an attempt to validate and listen to her, I offered a proposal: That I still get up on weekday school mornings early to shower / get dressed, but then I stick around until 6:45–7:00 or so to help with the boys and take some stuff down to her car to help with that.

Hmmm, well I'm not sure I would call it good or bad. In her current mindset there's really nothing you can do to placate her. She'll find a reason to hate you for just about anything. But if you're doing it for the kids then it's OK. Just don't have any expectations that it'll change anything.

[Bo562]

Bo,

I'm gonna go big picture here. It looks like you are spinning, just emotionally all over the place. Work on your detachment and some of these things will seem little, and you will be able to figure out more of this on your own.

Totally feel all over the place today—one moment I’m great, the other I’m a wreck, ready to tear-up in the restroom or have the tears run down my face at our school’s chapel during lunch (both of which were today).

But I have to be strong—in front of my students, and also in front of my boys.

“Daddy’s here!”—OS when I came into his room with W when I heard him get up this morning.

You are letting her control your thoughts, moods, and actions when you should be in control.

Correct. I thought I was more in-control—I’m not letting myself be baited in front of her. But I do need to work on my assertiveness and decisiveness. I come here to journal to let it out.

You got this.

I appreciate the thoughts, Ovr. But I don’t feel like I’ve got this. Some moments my heart hurts, both literally and figuratively.

While I know I probably won’t die from this, some moments I do pray to live out my wedding vows and wonder if I would get called home so that she could have her wish of living life without me, if she really wants it that bad enough. It sounds so so terrible, but I’ve thought about it.

I know it’s doing a number of her—she said her breast milk production is down because she is so stressed about all this. Maybe don’t D your spouse, then? If this is stressing her out so much, why why is she doing this?

Why are we doing this to each other? I feel like it’s the end of the movie ‘The War of the Roses.’ I’d much rather live out the short story by O. Henry ‘The Gift of the Magi’—that’s what I always wanted to live out.