Emerging from my fog? (pain18 DB X)

[Phoenix9]

Please stay balanced. You almost swung too far the other direction, since you know she is still seeing OM. Do you see where you nearly went too far?

I do see how I have pushed her further into the arms of the OM. The most recent example was a little over two weeks ago when I acted like a jerk leading up to the bill situation.

I'm working hard on the balance. I want to make the switch genuinely. I need to make the change for me. Not her.

It's only been 10 days since I cut the vindictiveness and anger, but I am feeling some positivity not only in myself but between her and I as well.

Good! The vindictiveness was eating you alive!

I still wait to respond to her messages).

It has been very hard to let this go. But I am working on it. I do not feel anger any more.

Why? Don't you think it looks rude to make her wait every single time, before you respond? I mean, if you are truly busy, then don't break your neck to answer, but as long as she is using respectful words and not getting a bad attitude with you......I don't think it is necessary to play the "waiting game" before responding each time.

Sandi, I am still trying to convey mysteriousness and putting my own tasks and responsibilities over her. To be honest, she has not said anything disrespectful or showed me a bad attitude in a long time.

I just don't want to nice anything. I want her to come back but on her terms. My job is not to push her away any further. If she comes back is up to her and the higher power.

Phoenix, don't look at your WW as you responding to her tests.....you have to do the turnaround for you. I am no expert but I have seen most things that have been advised here work to an extent. Keep at the DBing!

Of course. Nothing has changed as far as working on myself. I am nowhere near where I want to be, physically, mentally, and emotionally. I am still raw. I still need work.

Make the changes that make you feel good about yourself, do the activities that help you grow and help detach because you are living your best life...not waiting for that person that has caused so much hurt to come around. It is a tough pill to swallow experiencing all of this first hand and I too struggle with the impatience. If I would guess my WW is struggling to detach from OM but it appears that she is moving in the right direction. We just have to keep pushing forward with our goals.

Love hearing your success in physically improving, never stop that! I keep setting new goals for myself, weight, strength, new physical activities to take on. Never enjoyed clothes shopping until I got my youthful physique back at 49, the compliments are great and uplifting that I too am desirable...hopefully you are getting those looks as well.

I am not waiting. I have not waited in a long time. But I have stopped running away towards the other solution (divorce). I am just letting things be. That seems to be making all of our lives better in one form or another. I have so many goals I want to accomplish:

- Bench 185lbs. in 3 sets of 10 reps.
- Get a consistent paid gig for my photography
- Lose another 20-30 pounds.
- Become indispensable at my job.

It's about small, continual improvements. Those are the ones that tend to stick.

Thank you I am not going to stop. I am not going to be complacent anymore. I am going to make myself the best Phoenix9 I am capable of being. WW, OM, others...I don't control them or their feelings. Nor do I want to. That took too much energy from me and I just ended up tired, frustrated, and heartbroken.

Marching forward.

Day 172.

[sandi2]

Sandi, I am still trying to convey mysteriousness and putting my own tasks and responsibilities over her. To be honest, she has not said anything disrespectful or showed me a bad attitude in a long time.

If she sends you a text and you always wait a while before responding........the mystery has left. It's okay to delay responding sometimes, but if you've made this a routine behavior, then I think you've over-killed it a bit. But........whatever.

I just don't want to nice anything.

My concern was that your anger was the driving force in your attempt to overcome your NGS. Your vindictiveness was turning you into anything but nice. You were not showing attractive traits, b/c you were trying to be the hard, cold, bad guy. You don't want to turn into a jerk.....in an attempt to overcome your NGS. Is there no middle ground between acting civil and being too accommodating? You have to learn how to get along with people, and at the same time.....not allow them to use you for their own advantage. You can say, "No", without being hateful or cold about it. There may be some instances where you will need to stand up to someone who is disrespecting you, and if that's the case.....don't be afraid of losing their love, friendship, or whatever the association. When you do something good for someone, don't do it with the expectations of getting some desired results in return. Don't forsake your self respect and compromise your integrity in order for the other person to accept you.

IMHO, I think not being a "nice guy" is so foreign to men with NGS, that in their attempt to overcome it......they go too far the other direction. I just don't want to see this happen to you. That's why I was trying to reign you in, when I read what your W said. It sounded as if she was speaking from a place of hurt, instead of anger.

Anyway, try to stay in the middle of the road, and don't swing too far over either side. I don't want to confuse you, and sometimes I feel I do.

[Phoenix9]

Day 173,

My mood and feelings hit a blue area today. Thoughts of WW with OM began to flood my mind again. I thought about who WW once was, about how cheating is the worst thing in the world, about how she would never sleep with someone else, and how she would never hurt me. I look at that, and even though I know that my WW is someone different and is taken over by this monster (who I created) who is doing all of those things. The sadness got a boost when I realized that my circle of friends around me have a SO in one form or the other. And I just look at what is going on and just wonder...am I doomed to this? I am trying to tell myself that I don't need anyone to make me happy. I am working on exuding the aura that people GET to be with me. It's a struggle. Especially today.

I'm working on changing my mindset and stop feeling sorry for myself and "broadcast" it to the public. I am trying to put on a positive face, even if I'm hurting inside. So far, it seems to be working. And as an added bonus, I do feel some of the positivity when I act it out.

If she sends you a text and you always wait a while before responding........the mystery has left. It's okay to delay responding sometimes, but if you've made this a routine behavior, then I think you've over-killed it a bit. But........whatever.

I did. I'm trying to warm up gradually. It was how I was behaving before I found the emails. I sometimes think that we were on our way towards R but I had to pursue and then blow up at her for showing affection in front of our D4 and sexing someone else (even typing that is bringing up anger in me). I then tell myself that it needed to happen because I was still looking over my shoulder to see if my attempts at DBing was being noticed by WW. I know that I was doing DBing for getting WW back, not to improve myself, even though I told you all otherwise.

I needed to find the emails. I needed to let go completely. But I did not need to be so angry about it for a long time.

I just don't want to nice anything.

My concern was that your anger was the driving force in your attempt to overcome your NGS. Your vindictiveness was turning you into anything but nice. You were not showing attractive traits, b/c you were trying to be the hard, cold, bad guy. You don't want to turn into a jerk.....in an attempt to overcome your NGS. Is there no middle ground between acting civil and being too accommodating? You have to learn how to get along with people, and at the same time.....not allow them to use you for their own advantage. You can say, "No", without being hateful or cold about it. There may be some instances where you will need to stand up to someone who is disrespecting you, and if that's the case.....don't be afraid of losing their love, friendship, or whatever the association. When you do something good for someone, don't do it with the expectations of getting some desired results in return. Don't forsake your self respect and compromise your integrity in order for the other person to accept you.

IMHO, I think not being a "nice guy" is so foreign to men with NGS, that in their attempt to overcome it......they go too far the other direction. I just don't want to see this happen to you. That's why I was trying to reign you in, when I read what your W said. It sounded as if she was speaking from a place of hurt, instead of anger.

Anyway, try to stay in the middle of the road, and don't swing too far over either side. I don't want to confuse you, and sometimes I feel I do.

I tried not to let my feelings go rogue and back towards angry territory. I was triggered by her behaviors to act out of anger. Again, just thought about what W told me before she went WW, and it just fired off words in my brain like "hypocrite", "cheating liar", and other unsavory words. And that just continued to fuel my angry detachment. I was hurt by the person who promised would never hurt me. I felt betrayed and hurt by her actions and I wanted to let her know how badly it affected me.

It wasn't until I had the heart to heart with WW that I realized that she is acting out of hurt, not out of anger like you said, Sandi. That was when I decided to forgive her. That was when I told myself that this time is likely my last time to save the marriage. And I started to take the steps of being more pleasant to her, help her, and converse with her when she texts or calls me.

I just don't think I am ready to spend a long period of time with her. It still hurts. And I don't trust her.

I was not confused, I just took things farther than I should have.

[Phoenix9]

Another question:

In this warm up process, should I accept some invites to family activities/dinners/etc.?

Or would that be considered cake eating?

[DejaVu6]

Phoenix - My understanding about those invitations is that it is fine to go as long as you have ZERO expectations and avoid initiating any R talks. If you ultimately want to R, it stands to reason that you shouldn't turn down every invitation... just some - especially if they are last minute. The vets can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ready2Change]

You have been DBing for 6 months correct?


This is my current understanding:

She is still in contact with the OM and visits him every weekend.

Did this change?

[Phoenix9]

You have been DBing for 6 months correct?

Yes.

This is my current understanding:

She is still in contact with the OM and visits him every weekend.

Did this change?

It did not. And I'm thinking it's because my anger and vindictiveness pushed her to him.

[sandi2]

I plead with you to get professional help to learn anger management. Sometimes we need professionals who have been trained to teach us how to cope and what to do when we feel the anger flooding us. You have tried to force it under control by sheer will power, but that doesn't appear to be a healthy or effective manner.

Were you angry and cold toward your W before she became wayward? If so, then why were you angry?

Again, just thought about what W told me before she went WW, and it just fired off words in my brain like "hypocrite", "cheating liar", and other unsavory words.

What did she tell you before she went wayward that made her a cheating liar and hypocrite? You said she became a monster that you helped to create. If that's how you really feel, then why are you so angry toward her? Is it 100% about the affair? Her waywardness began in her mindset, before she ever overtly rebelled. I think you feel angry toward yourself, too, but she's been the target of your vindictiveness.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting you compromise your core values and where you stand on cheating/affairs. I'm not suggesting you start jumping through hoops to win her back. I'm saying that she needs to feel respect and admiration for her H. If all she is seeing is a cold, angry, vindictive man......then it's going to cloud her feelings of respect. A wife must feel respect for her H, in order for her to have those warm, desirable feelings of admiration that all H's want their W's to have. I promise you that she won't have those feelings if you are wanting to punish her.
If you want to save your M, then everything from her point of view must be seen through eyes of respect for you as a man and as her H. So, you have to figure out how to be a man that draws respect from his W.

Without receiving professional help to heal and deal with your anger and self pity, I have doubts your MR will be able to survive it. I think the MR can survive the affair, but not your mismanaged anger issues.

I just don't think I am ready to spend a long period of time with her. It still hurts. And I don't trust her.

No, you aren't ready. Of course it still hurts.......she's still in an active affair. There was no reconciliation between you and your W. My concern is that if she ended her affair today and said she wanted to work on the MR......you would continue having those same thoughts/emotions you are experiencing today......unless you seek help in healing. It doesn't just go away b/c the affair ended. That's why I am pleading with you to turn to professional therapy, so you can learn how to deal with your anger and pain.

I am working on exuding the aura that people GET to be with me.

Maybe you need to work on self confidence, rather than exuding the aura that people GET to be with you. I would think the latter could be misread by others as arrogance. Just my thoughts. (((hugs)))

Like I said previously, it's difficult for some men to find balance in this stuff. Trying to accomplish these goals while suffering from intense emotional pain, says a lot about you as an individual. It means you have not given up on yourself. I like that in a person. As long as there is growth, that's a sign there is life.......and hope.

[ovrrnbw]

It did not. And I'm thinking it's because my anger and vindictiveness pushed her to him.

Kind of. I mean if we were model husbands and wives, we would have never found the DB board, right? But, you didn't make her cheat. She chose that. She knew it was wrong and did it anyways.

Phoenix, cheers to you this Saturday!

[Phoenix9]

I plead with you to get professional help to learn anger management. Sometimes we need professionals who have been trained to teach us how to cope and what to do when we feel the anger flooding us. You have tried to force it under control by sheer will power, but that doesn't appear to be a healthy or effective manner.

Were you angry and cold toward your W before she became wayward? If so, then why were you angry?

I was. It began when W got pregnant. It was small passive-aggressive things, but suffice to say I was a bad H during that difficult time. She needed extra care and attention and quite simply, I did not give enough of that to her. I was always late coming home, I stayed downstairs when she would go to bed because of her fatigue, bad day at work, etc. The premature birth of our D just made it worse. She got hit with postpartum and her coping mechanisms just irritated me. I felt like I also needed more of her support because I was going through a terrible time and I was not getting it in the form I was expecting (NGS. Hidden contract). And as time progressed, I prioritized my feelings of my awful job over her feelings and needs constantly and took a lot for granted. Sex was even more scarce and I used porn instead (massive screw-up. I'm working on that as well via sex ed classes. Therapy is an option down the road).

She begged for help so many times. And I just felt that my job was more important. I felt that being a provider was something all husbands needed to do.

It goes without saying that I was very wrong.

I have been better about my anger in the last two weeks, but I do feel like I need to get this addressed. I just realized, I am getting help for my marriage (being a better Phoenix), my NGS, and soon sex therapy. Anger management is another thing I need to address.

Again, just thought about what W told me before she went WW, and it just fired off words in my brain like "hypocrite", "cheating liar", and other unsavory words.

What did she tell you before she went wayward that made her a cheating liar and hypocrite? You said she became a monster that you helped to create. If that's how you really feel, then why are you so angry toward her? Is it 100% about the affair? Her waywardness began in her mindset, before she ever overtly rebelled. I think you feel angry toward yourself, too, but she's been the target of your vindictiveness.

Sandi, the more that the days progress, the more I see why my W went WW. Before she went wayward, she gave me hints and clues that things were not good between us at all. She talked about how I felt about divorce (I said "Do what makes you happy" and basically shut her down), she talked about how she is getting close to OM1. She begged me for help, Sandi. She begged me to watch my words and anger because it was not going to end well at all. She gave me so many clues and warnings...and I just did not ignore them, I flipped them off and kicked them in the stomach. That's my part in creating this version of a hurt WW.

I was angry about the affair until two weeks ago when she opened up about my behavior and attitude. I told her again why she was doing what she was doing. I told her that I neglected her needs and as a result, she has gotten herself into this R with OM2. Since that day, I have felt more pity and sorrow for her. She is trying to salve her feelings with OM2 and whatnot, but she is not doing well at all. The HPV, the IUD incident, the stomach problems, and now she has a small amount of blood in her urine. She is coming apart, Sandi. I cannot continue to make it worse. She still loves me. She still is showing signs of love. I still feel like we have a chance. It is my last chance.

I am angry at myself, but instead of wallowing in pity and regret, I'm working on getting that fixed. I'm working on 180ing my own behaviors and moods. Hard work, but it's needed. I can say honestly that coming here has saved my LIFE. I don't know if my marriage will be saved, which was my original intention of joining this board, but the things I have learned about myself was eye-opening. And once I learned about how my behaviors led to this, I knew I HAD to change before I caused more damage, whether it's with WW, or another woman.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting you compromise your core values and where you stand on cheating/affairs. I'm not suggesting you start jumping through hoops to win her back. I'm saying that she needs to feel respect and admiration for her H. If all she is seeing is a cold, angry, vindictive man......then it's going to cloud her feelings of respect. A wife must feel respect for her H, in order for her to have those warm, desirable feelings of admiration that all H's want their W's to have. I promise you that she won't have those feelings if you are wanting to punish her.
If you want to save your M, then everything from her point of view must be seen through eyes of respect for you as a man and as her H. So, you have to figure out how to be a man that draws respect from his W.

Without receiving professional help to heal and deal with your anger and self pity, I have doubts your MR will be able to survive it. I think the MR can survive the affair, but not your mismanaged anger issues.

I won't compromise my values. I sincerely think that she is relying on me to get my crap together because she still has hope for us. I need to be the strong, level-headed man she NEEDS. OM2 is not that man. OM2 is just a band-aid.

And since I started DBing she has been respecting and admiring the changes I have been making and being the person she has wanted for a very long time. It took her calling me a pr*ck and a-hole as well as her crying in front of me to realize the extent of damage my anger has caused. It hit home when she told me that she dreads coming home when I am in the house because of my unpredictable behavior. That is when it struck me hard. I have become someone who I never wanted to be growing up. I have become my dad. And that is what is prompting me to drop the anger and begin the "thawing" process. I'm not doing it to save the MR. I'm doing to save what we have for each other. And I do feel like it's love. I really do.

I have been slowly warming up to her in the last two weeks. I ask her about her day sometimes, I am responding more to her calls and texts in a timely manner, and most of all, I am being more pleasant when I talk to her. I joke a bit (she laughs). I am trying to be the person she fell in love with. Because that was when she was happiest.

I just don't think I am ready to spend a long period of time with her. It still hurts. And I don't trust her.

No, you aren't ready. Of course it still hurts.......she's still in an active affair. There was no reconciliation between you and your W. My concern is that if she ended her affair today and said she wanted to work on the MR......you would continue having those same thoughts/emotions you are experiencing today......unless you seek help in healing. It doesn't just go away b/c the affair ended. That's why I am pleading with you to turn to professional therapy, so you can learn how to deal with your anger and pain.

I hear you Sandi. I will make some phone calls Monday and get the help I need. It's a blessing that we haven't R yet. If we did, I would end up back on here in worse shape. Very thankful that I have more time.

I am working on exuding the aura that people GET to be with me.

Maybe you need to work on self confidence, rather than exuding the aura that people GET to be with you. I would think the latter could be misread by others as arrogance. Just my thoughts. (((hugs)))

Like I said previously, it's difficult for some men to find balance in this stuff. Trying to accomplish these goals while suffering from intense emotional pain, says a lot about you as an individual. It means you have not given up on yourself. I like that in a person. As long as there is growth, that's a sign there is life.......and hope.

Ok. I do see the cockiness from my saying that people GET to be with me. I think it's just pushing my self-confidence goal to the extreme end (I have a pattern of this behavior, don't I?).

I need to go through this pain and loss. It is what I needed to have pain18 die and be reborn as Phoenix9. I deserve the best version of myself. My D4 deserves it.

And my WW deserves it. I think she is relying on me to be that person.

I cannot thank you and this board enough for your support. It's been life-changing.