Lastly, and I think I will add this to the piecing thread, our perspectives of how many assaults he made on the M are quite different. I viewed my H as killing our M with a 1000 cuts -- every lie, deception, selfishness and hurt he caused -- and each one stung as much as the next. He does not see it that way! Yes, he feels remorse for each cut, but he did not see each as it's own intentional assault. He feels that this was one giant mistake and that these are all fragments of that, as they were all interconnected. You cannot have an A without lies and you cannot lie without hiding things and on and on .... I think I'm starting to really get it more now. Again, this has taken me years.
YES!!! You are exactly right. I think you are on to something big here, Blu. The WS apologizes for the A, and sees that as an all inclusive apology. Maybe this is where frustration comes from both sides. The betrayed spouse needs to hear individual apologies............say like, an apology for a certain text message, or a particular night the WS did not come home, for lying, etc..........and the wayward spouse is thinking, "Why do you continue to bring this stuff up, when I've already apologized?" In the WS's head, apologizing for the A has an umbrella effect that covers everything during that period of time.
When the WS apologizes, I think they just want to put everything behind them and for the MR to move forward. However, the LBS can't move forward until they have healing, and that healing may require more clarification and another apology from the WS. Not every WS and LBS fall under this description.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
When the WS apologizes, I think they just want to put everything behind them and for the MR to move forward. However, the LBS can't move forward until they have healing, and that healing may require more clarification and another apology from the WS. Not every WS and LBS fall under this description.
This is a very valid observation. It describes my sitch almost perfectly. I will describe a trigger and tell her how it affects me, and she will often get frustrated because she thinks we have already covered it. Sometimes maybe we have from her viewpoint, but not mine. Also, sometimes I just need to go over it again. That is also frustrating for her, because she doesn't understand that I need to go back over topics a few times before I can put them out of my mind.
Last edited by Joe2017; 01/25/1908:41 PM.
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
IMHO, you need to focus on healing from PTSD, before you try to deal with Piecing the M back together. As has already mentioned, you two needed to have started out as just friends, who occasionally saw each other....rather than going straight into a committed relationship. Anyway, if your therapist felt it would help for your XW to attend the sessions with you, and if she would agree......then that might be more beneficial to your health, and the relationship. I just don't think you two need to try and handle it on your own. Based on what you have shared with us, it sounds as if the PTSD is the more urgent issue, and is currently the main factor that causes arguments between you and XW. You have a trigger and need to talk about it. Unless your XW has experience working with patients who have PTSD, then she may be ill equipped to know how to help as a spouse.......especially one who has caused the trauma.
I was reading a little about the symptoms of PTSD, and one place it wrote about some things that may help in addition to therapy. I thought of you when I read how some patients find it helpful to record their therapy sessions when they are telling the therapist about a particular incident. Then whenever the patient felt the "need" to go over it again, he could play the recording and listen to himself tell the story. I don't guess it would help as far as you needing to hear your XW answer certain questions.....unless she was in the sessions, too. On second thought, maybe you shouldn't record any sessions where both of you are there.
I hope you will consider saving the discussions for the session time, rather than when you are with XW.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank you so much for thinking of me Sandi. That means a lot.
Well, I will say I have become a little bit better at managing the triggers. Either that, or I have been exposed to the majority of them over the past (almost) two months. Sometimes they still come out of nowhere, but I have been good about compartmentalizing them and then saving it for my therapy sessions. I do in-person IC and I have added phone-based counseling. The telephone counseling helps me tremendously for these small episodes. I can take something that bothers me, and then have a counselor on the phone in 15 minutes. It's very beneficial and has been helping me TONS. I can file something away for a day, and then call in to go over things.
This helps me to not bring it up to my XW and lets us to continue our day peacefully, which is a great thing because it allows us to enjoy the time we have together without ruining our day with pain from the past.
Currently, the main thing that bothers me is embarrassment and shame. I don't bring this up to XW, because that'd be unfair right now. She already feels embarrassment, shame, and guilt for what she did to me. What gets to me is knowing that she made a fool of me in front of the whole world. And in many ways, taking her back makes me feel like an even bigger fool! I know people are judging me right now, and it burns. They're my friends and family, and even though they are outwardly supportive I know that they don't really think I should be letting XW back. They tell me "I love you man, BUT......" and what can I say? They're right about almost all of it. And these are the people who stuck it out with me through all of my hardest days.
Maybe I just have a small bit of faith that XW can change... I hope. I'm sure this feeling of shame will fade over time.
Thanks again!
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
They're right about almost all of it. And these are the people who stuck it out with me through all of my hardest days.
Except...they're not right. No one is right. This is all life and things that happen in life, and there is not "right" or "wrong" way to make your way through. We search for right or wrong, but our paths are so individual to each of us. Your friends and family are correct in that you were hurt, and they wish to point that out to you, as if it were that simple. They have good intentions in wanting to keep you from being hurt again. I think you know it's not that simple - that everything that happened privately and publicly between you and XW is nuanced and delicate and hurtful and a reflection of each of your truths in that moment.
I know we all love our friends and family. Mostly, they want what is best for us. For me, my greatest lesson in all of this is drawing a line between what MY truth is, and what the perceptions of friends/family is.
Your friends and family "stuck it out" with you, but they didn't live your truth. So remember that while you should accept their support, you can only live your life as it feels authentic to you. If that means some uncertainty sometimes...that's cool. If you're pulling away or gong full force ahead - also cool. Your true family/friends will recognize your path and applaud you for finding it on your own.
They had the updated "RENT" show on Fox this week. I've been revisiting. No day but today.
Joe, your family and friends who supported you during the divorce will support you through reconciliation. They are worried about you, and that you will be hurt again. I haven't seen this discussed on this forum, but she broke faith with them, too, and I think they have to go through a sort of internal reconciliation with your W, or at least learn or begin to trust her again.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Currently, the main thing that bothers me is embarrassment and shame. I don't bring this up to XW, because that'd be unfair right now. She already feels embarrassment, shame, and guilt for what she did to me. What gets to me is knowing that she made a fool of me in front of the whole world. And in many ways, taking her back makes me feel like an even bigger fool! I know people are judging me right now, and it burns. They're my friends and family, and even though they are outwardly supportive I know that they don't really think I should be letting XW back. They tell me "I love you man, BUT......" and what can I say? They're right about almost all of it. And these are the people who stuck it out with me through all of my hardest days.
It's tough......very tough when other people know there has been an affair. People are going to talk about it, and usually, add their own flavor of opinion to the mix. If the recovering WW, if she has not truly repented and is reflecting a humble spirit or attitude......it will probably be very awkward and tense the first time or two she is around her in-laws or old friends who did not support her wayward actions. I don't know her personality, or how she normally interacts with others under stressful conditions.
It's difficult for your relatives, too. My adult son went through the same experience as you read on the board. His WW kept her A hidden and had OM waiting in the wing to step in and replace her H (my son), the minute the D papers were signed. She and OM chose a very public place to express their love for each other......and did so when they knew my son would be there to witness it. I mean, the ink was still wet on the divorce papers, and he had no clue there was another man in the picture. So, it was very painful, and he was so shocked, hurt, embarrassed and humiliated. He felt like everyone was looking at him, and thinking what a fool he was for not knowing his W had been cheating. After the OM didn't work out, she played a little game of "tease", and my son and the kids got their hopes up that there might be a reconciliation. However, she had OM#2 (or #3, #4.....who knows), and so there was no remarriage. He later told me that maybe it took that second time for him to let go.......but it was killing me, just watching from the sidelines all the suffering it caused.
When I was recovering from my own wayward walk, I struggled so hard to forgive myself. Since then, there has been 3 occasions that strongly brought back those feelings of such deep regret and shame. The worst time was when death took my mother and then my daughter, back to back. To mourn/grieve is normal......but this shame was worse than any I ever felt. I felt that I had turned out to be such a disappointment to them.....and those emotions were mixed in with my grief. They had done nothing to make me feel that way......it was just me. Maybe b/c all my family had respected me so highly, I grieved over the thoughts of them never able to see me the same after my EA.......and where were those type of thoughts when OM .and I first started talking? .
I lost two of the most important females in a woman's life......her mother and her daughter. Perhaps some who judged me thought I deserved to suffer whatever pain came my direction, however, my two loved ones did not deserve to be embarrassed and so utterly disappointed. It is hard to explain, and I'm not on some quest for sympathy. This isn't about me, and I'm sorry for rambling......so I'll try to wrap my story up by saying the third hardest time was seeing my son and his children go through the painful results that come from infidelity and all it represents. I know I was the WW, but I think I hear what you are saying when you describe your concerns. I hope you can keep things real with yourself it is essential to healing.......no matter which side of the street you have walked.
If anyone should question, doubt, and wonder if people will think they are a fool........I'd think it would be a divorced LBH who is being encouraged by the XW (the former cheater), to get back together. I'm not going to tell you to ignore what your immediate family members and closest friends might be trying to tell you. You have not healed from the first time around with her, and I'm sure those who love you are quite concerned you are at risk for a second time around. It's not a bad idea to think on the warning of a mature minded person who is not looking to cause trouble and who has your best interest at heart. Discuss with the IC your concerns of feeling the "burn", as you called it. It is a valid concern, and I have seen this "feeling like a fool" become a bigger issue for men, more than for women. I'm inclined to believe it is b/c of the differences in the two genders and how our men were raised......etc., etc. That's just my thoughts.
While talking about the possibility of feeling like a fool, let me just say that if the couple desires to reconcile, then there can be no room for stubborn pride from either of them. I'm not talking about having self respect, dignity, or the kind of pride you might have for your country or whatever. I'm talking about that old stubborn self pride that builds walls and puts distance in relationships. As a recovering WW, I had to fight stubborn pride in the beginning of my turn around, before I had my "come to Jesus" moment. You see your XW become defensive sometimes, right? A lot of people would judge that to mean it's b/c she feels guilty. Well, what if that defensiveness is coming from her stubborn pride? Maybe it's the same thing, but for me......I didn't feel guilty, before my "come to Jesus" moment. I had stubborn pride, and that kind of pride is rotten. It holds us back, and prevents growth. As the LBH, you don't want to be seen as a big fool, so you will have to be extremely honest with yourself in those moments of feeling the burn and determine if it's your pride that has been hurt (and surely it has, else you wouldn't feel the burn of the rub), or if you are overly concerned about how others see you......or is there another reason. Both of you will probably struggle with your own stubborn pride getting in the way of progress.
IMO, it would be less judgmental in the eyes of others, if the couple was not divorced and was trying to save their M. Some people will wonder why you would get out of it, only to return......but does it bother you b/c you wonder the same thing? It's one of those things you, as the LBS, would need to decide which end has the strongest pull on you. As for as the WW, it not only takes guts to face in-laws, relatives, former friends of the M, and just nosy people in general........but it requires a lot of grace and poise.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Everything seems to be going steady on the old Joe2017 front. No big arguments, no big blow ups, no shameful discoveries. But I just feel soooooooo... BLEH all the time! It's hard to understand. I expected to be feeling more positive emotions............ ugh. I GAL'd like crazy last year and rediscovered myself. I really wonder if she and I have enough in common anymore to compatible enough for an LTR. It's a really weird... WAS-like feeling I suppose? Is this what a WAS feels like?
Adam: Thank you for the support. I am trying to take things slowly, but sometimes I want to go faster. Sometimes I want this R and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I want to quit, and sometimes I want to go all in. It's made me kind of depressed lately, and I think it might not be worth it some days.
Jim: Yeah, they will support me. But they are also very very very defensive of me. I have great friends, and I really do feel like they have my best interests at heart. My I saw my xGF at a get-together and she told me that she thinks it's a bad idea. She's not trying to date me again and has no ulterior motives, she just does not want me to get hurt because she cares about me. I value their opinions to a high degree.
Sandi: Thank you so much for your extremely thoughtful response. I hadn't read the story of your S before, and that is one of the worst things I've read in a while. His WW seems to be the worst of the worst, and I'm so glad he's out of that situation. I know you have been through a lot on your path, and maybe you can help me with one question...
Sandi, how did you know that you truly loved your H after your EA?
I don't mean this to sound harsh, but I don't believe that people who fully love their spouses willfully cheat on them to the degree that my XW did. So, my question is not so simple... but it is important. Fully loving someone is a choice. She says she chooses to fully love me, NOW. I find it so hard to believe that she is in love with me again, after treating me so badly in the past.
I am struggling with my XW's love for me. She says she loves me fully, with such conviction. She tells me that she is sure that I am the one for her. She tells me that she knows what real love is now that she has wasted a year of her life chasing a feeling that lasted a short time. I am having a very hard time believing her. She says it so easily, like she used to when times were good. And to her, she is really happy having me back! But I am not there in that happy place! I am struggling every day, and she is content with me and our situation the way it is now because she has me back in her life. She tells me that she is happy because she feels like she's getting back the life she threw away.
I don't know if she really is in love with me, or she is just trying to get her old life back. Because I hate to tell her, that life is GONE and it's not coming back. She made sure that she destroyed it.
This crap is harder than I thought it would be. Lol.
Save yourself. Nobody is coming! BD:11/2017 Filed:12/2017 Final: 2/2018
It's one of those things you, as the LBS, would need to decide which end has the strongest pull on you. As for as the WW, it not only takes guts to face in-laws, relatives, former friends of the M, and just nosy people in general........but it requires a lot of grace and poise.