Still foggy, still going (Phoenix9 DB XI)

[Phoenix9]

I'm pretty sick, so I may not get to sharing my last few days. I'll try later today.

I'm feeling very good otherwise.

[Adam04]

Hope you feel better P!

Get lots of rest and drink fluids. Don't worry bout sharing. Rest your mind and body buddy.

[sandi2]

Well, in this particular situation, I don't agree with the idea of him returning to the house on a full time and forcing his W to get out or suffer through it. Here and are my reasons.

1. They are living as a S couple, and they agreed they wanted to use the "nesting" arrangement for the sake of their child. Whether or not we like or agree with the nesting arrangement.......Phoenix has agreed with his W.
2. Phoenix is focusing on his anger issues, and has admitted that his W was right about him in the past......plus we know that during this ordeal his anger and vindictiveness has worked against him in trying to bust a divorce. So he has made the decision to work on his issues. Not only did he make the decision, he told his WW all about it...........plus more. In so many words, he has told her he will not be a problem for her about the living arrangements.....and knowing that she will be with OM2 half time. Phoenix wants his daughter to have time with her mother in the home. This was his decision and stated agreement with his W, Considering he proclaims to have been a pr'ck previously, plus everything he has recently said to his WW, I think it would look more like pr'ck behavior if he goes back on his word. In this case, him announcing to his WW that he will remain full time in the house would not make him look strong and attractive. It would make him look like a jerk who went back on his word.
3. At this point, him staying in the house full time will not save his MR. His WW is already living with OM2 half time, and Phoenix needs to work toward getting her stuff out of the home......if the plans are for him to live there after they are physically separated and her live elsewhere. Once they are really physically separated, then they need to consider another child/parent arrangement. When OM2 and WW have to deal with real life, and keeping D4.........playing house may not be near as much fun.

.Phoenix, here's the thing, this current nesting arrangement cannot be permanent. You can not move forward and expect to have future relationships with you spending half your time back at the marital home with your child. I know you are hoping your M will be saved, but at the same time you need to be realistic and ask yourself if this is the setup you want until D4 is ready for college. How long can you make payments of two places.....b/c eventually, friends and family get tired of you staying with them......if that's what you are doing.

As much as you want your child to have quality time with her mother, you cannot force the other spouse to be a be good parent. If D comes, then eventually the child will spend 50/50 wherever the parents live. Even if the parents are okay with the nesting arrangement, other partner or future spouses aren't very likely to go along with it. That's how life goes.

Phoenix, I think you have handled things fairly well, except when you open your mouth. Why in blue blazes does the LBH think he must explain to his WW (who is leaving him and living with OM2) about his personal goals, self improvements, behavior changes, and intentions? And why oh WHY does the LBH feel that his WW is hard of hearing? How many times did you tell her you didn't want a D? Couldn't you just tell her if she wants a D that she can file and you won't stand in her way? She saw this as another time you "just changed your mind", although you kept on telling you didn't want a D.

She then asked me if this is the way we want to continue living (stay legally married and do what we are doing). I said "yes". She asked me why would I do that. I told her that I truly do not know right now (any other answer would be pursuit, right?)

What!

but I know a divorce is not what I want.

At what price? I mean, that's your business, but you've just told your W that she can continue screwing OM2 and you'll accept it b/c you don't want a D. So now, she's going to turn the heat up. If you thought your self respect was in the tanker before.......just brace yourself buddy.

Like I've said, men with NGS have trouble staying balanced. Remember me cautioning you about swinging too far the other direction? You said you were trying to soften your stance.......well, congrats b/c you've just become about as weak and soft in her eyes as it gets. No, you should never tell a WW that you agree to stay M while she lives with another guy. You are saying you'll put up with anything, b/c you don't want a D.

[Ready2Change]

Well, in this particular situation, I don't agree with the idea of him returning to the house on a full time and forcing his W to get out or suffer through it. Here and are my reasons.

This is why I like the boards. It offers many viewpoints. It allows people to think about all the options and the pros and cons of each to help them make the decisions.

[Phoenix9]

Day 182,

An important milestone today:

It's been exactly half a year since I started my DB journey. I look back where I was late July and now and I am very happy with how I have progressed. While the next 26 weeks will bring a lot of change, I can say that I am in better shape now to deal with them than where I was. A good birthday present I would think.

I had an update of my past few days ready for sharing, but I saw Sandi's post and need to respond. One major issue I have to work on is dealing with the fact that I say too much. My response to my WW talking about formalizing our S was a huge step back. I see your reasons as to why I may have swung back to nice-guy Phoenix (pain?) but I feel like I should give some details of my reasoning.

Phoenix, here's the thing, this current nesting arrangement cannot be permanent. You can not move forward and expect to have future relationships with you spending half your time back at the marital home with your child. I know you are hoping your M will be saved, but at the same time you need to be realistic and ask yourself if this is the setup you want until D4 is ready for college. How long can you make payments of two places.....b/c eventually, friends and family get tired of you staying with them......if that's what you are doing.

It will not be. My WW is making plans on moving out by summer and we're going to discuss our separation of finances, maybe as early as next week. At most, there is about five months of this left. Either we decide to R between now and then, or WW moves out and the nesting ends. I have told her that I will not change or influence her decision to move that way. I dropped the "D" word, regardless if it was in anger or not, and that set a chain of events that led her to plan her exit.

As much as you want your child to have quality time with her mother, you cannot force the other spouse to be a be good parent. If D comes, then eventually the child will spend 50/50 wherever the parents live. Even if the parents are okay with the nesting arrangement, other partner or future spouses aren't very likely to go along with it. That's how life goes.

I know. And it's heading that direction already. As much as I don't want this possible D to happen I cannot force WW to be a good parent. WW is a great mom to D4. I am not questioning her choices she is making right now. Maybe I will down the road, but in this space and time, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

And I also know that I cannot pursue a R with someone else with things are as is. I am still broken.

Phoenix, I think you have handled things fairly well, except when you open your mouth. Why in blue blazes does the LBH think he must explain to his WW (who is leaving him and living with OM2) about his personal goals, self improvements, behavior changes, and intentions? And why oh WHY does the LBH feel that his WW is hard of hearing? How many times did you tell her you didn't want a D?

My mouth has gotten me into a lot of trouble. It caused this S and possible D, it made this sitch worse, and it has seemingly made my chances to R smaller.

I don't know if you meant that I in particular explained my goals, improvements, changes, and intentions to WW. I did not. WW was the one who acknowledged those changes in me. My mistake was telling her that I am saw the root causes of being in this predicament and am working on them so I don't make this painful mistake again. I have never once told her that my goal is to get back together with WW. Maybe me saying that does not matter and I still should have kept it very short and not even mention my reasoning.

In that conversation, I told her directly that I don't want a D twice. I told her that I don't know why but did tell her it's not what I want.

Couldn't you just tell her if she wants a D that she can file and you won't stand in her way? She saw this as another time you "just changed your mind", although you kept on telling you didn't want a D.

I told her that I will not change her mind or feelings on what to do. I told her I understand that moving towards D is her mindset because of my words. Ultimately, I conveyed to her that if that is what she wants, she is going to have to work for it, without me telling her as much.

At what price? I mean, that's your business, but you've just told your W that she can continue screwing OM2 and you'll accept it b/c you don't want a D. So now, she's going to turn the heat up. If you thought your self respect was in the tanker before.......just brace yourself buddy.

Like I've said, men with NGS have trouble staying balanced. Remember me cautioning you about swinging too far the other direction? You said you were trying to soften your stance.......well, congrats b/c you've just become about as weak and soft in her eyes as it gets. No, you should never tell a WW that you agree to stay M while she lives with another guy. You are saying you'll put up with anything, b/c you don't want a D.

Sandi, she is going to screw OM2 now regardless of what I say or do right now. Me drawing the line will not change anything. As far as she is concerned we're separated and she can damn well do whatever the crap she wants, including OM2. In her eyes this MR died a long time ago and she is free to move on. She has told me there is no way we're getting back together. If I tell her that I will not be with her while she is with OM2 right now, chances are high that she will say that we're not together and the marriage is practically over without signing the D papers. If that is her mindset, me telling her about my boundary of not staying M is going to make her dig into OM2 even more. I just feel that is her thinking right now. If we start rekindling things again and discuss a reunion, yes. That will be a major boundary that I will outline and need to enforce. But for now, all it is to her are empty words that will make her speed towards divorce.

I just feel that I have better chances of turning this around while we're still legally M. I feel that my chances drop significantly once D is formalized. I know that folks have R long after their D. Latest example is Joe2017. But I'm not Joe. I'm not anyone else who was able to R with their WS after D.

I am putting up with this, simply because now other parts of my life are so great that I can take my mind off of this sitch and focus on my happiness. I have more good things going on than bad. And the sitch I'm in is a major bad. But a lot of little goods are overtaking this. I guess in some crazy way I have built a tolerance towards her behavior.

As Steve85 once told me, it should get to a point where anything WS does rolls off like water on a duck's back. I am getting to that point. Yes, I have dips and I cry. Last week I did just that. Then I pick myself back up and keep focusing on things that I can control. Things that are making me happy. Things that are satisfying my life. I am getting attention from a lot more women now. Not to the point where they are giving me their numbers, but they are engaging with me and show some signs of interest.

Lastly, if you go through my posts in September and October, I told you all that I saw signs of her coming towards me. I did not make much of it and reminded myself that unless she is showing remorse that any behavior coming out of her is suspect. I see now that while it was not true remorse, she was making efforts of creating a new bond with me and possibly getting to that point. I snuffed that out when D4 told me about WW's disrespect and the emails.

Or maybe it was all wishful thinking in my head. I don't know.

[sandi2]

Okay, I'm not going to rehash it all, but I will respond to a few things, just for your clarification.

I have never once told her that my goal is to get back together with WW.

No, I was not referring to that type of goal. Just like you were telling in various ways that you don't want a D, you were telling her how you were working to fix yourself. I tried to make references to what most LBH's share with their WW when they are working on their physical body or emotional issues.....or whatever when they are "fixing" themselves. I was not referring to you wanting to get back together with your W.

Sandi, she is going to screw OM2 now regardless of what I say or do right now. Me drawing the line will not change anything. As far as she is concerned we're separated and she can damn well do whatever the crap she wants, including OM2.

You are absolutely correct in the above quote. But I was not talking actually talking about drawing a line right now. However, I will direct your attention to your initial boundary, if I did not misunderstand or have forgotten. You were going to divorce her b/c she would not stop her affair, is that correct? Well, that was fine b/c it was a boundary. You were not going to stay in an open marriage. But then you decided to take a softer stance, and proceeded to tell her that you'd put up with having a W who was living in open sin with another man......b/c that was better than divorcing her like a man should do when his WW is living with OM #2. No, she may not have changed her mind.......and even if it meant you followed through and enforced that boundary by divorcing her, it would have shown you being a man who has self respect, and too much respect for the institution of marriage (to which she has totally violated) to tolerate infidelity.

I hammer you guys all the time how important it is that your actions reflect a man of strength, decisiveness, calmness (not acting like an angry bear), integrity and self respect. How many times have I told you the WW must see her H through lens of respect? I was simply trying to show you that by telling her (in so many words) that you had changed your mind about filing for D, and that you accepted the conditions (her living with OM2 while M to you), b/c you didn't want a D..............basically collapsed a platform for respect. A platform where you would not be in a M that tolerated infidelity. It might not immediately stop her from her being with OM2, but she would still have thought more of you as a man, b/c she knows it isn't right to live with OM2 while legally M to you. I don't remember if you ever verbally used the word "boundary" with her, however, she certainly knew the reason you would be divorcing her!

As Steve85 once told me, it should get to a point where anything WS does rolls off like water on a duck's back. I am getting to that point.

Stay balanced, Phoenix. In some less major things, like the day to day things that were making you angry...you can let her actions roll off like water on your back. But you have to know you core values, spiritual beliefs, standards, and dignity.....or you won't be able to determine which actions to ignore and which to address. See what I mean about you jumping from one polar to the opposite? Your thinking is out of whack, and now you've painted yourself into a corner. I kind of doubt Steve meant you are suppose to just let infidelity roll off your back. I suspect he was referring to your serious anger issues........but I didn't see the post, so I shouldn't try to speak for him.

I just feel that I have better chances of turning this around while we're still legally M. I feel that my chances drop significantly once D is formalized.

You are trying to cling to her, and it's another example of how you've went from your extreme anger stance to the polar opposite of turning into a soft/weak guy who thinks he can hang on by not divorcing. Well, that's your decision.......but I don't think you handled it right by telling her you would tolerate her living with OM2 while staying legally M....b/c you didn't want a D. No W is going to respect her H as a man who puts up with that mess. And here's another thing. You have decided to soften your stance, and try to save the M by not filing for a D. How do you plan to do that while she's with the other guy? B/c you will be making it worse if you start pursuing her. Until you figure out how to balance your thinking, and your soft stance is going to mess with your head.

Anyway, I've expressed my thoughts about it, and I'll try not to keep harping on it. With that said, you have to move forward from this point and put duct tape over your mouth. Stop making implications that you don't want a D, b/c you have made it very clear to her. If she makes any snide remarks, like she did about having kids with OM2, or using other ways to apply pressure (and she will) there is something you are permitted to say more than once. "You are free to file for D, and I won't stand in your way". Don't have anymore heavy conversations where you talk about fixing yourself. You can talk calmly, and speak as respectfully as possible, and if you can show PMA and sound friendly......then good. Can't you do those things without pursuing her? Find the balance between being cold, angry, domineering ......and being too soft, weak, passive, etc. I don't want you to return to your vengeful frame of mind, but I don't want you to become a doormat, either.

(((hugs)))

[ovrrnbw]

1. They are living as a S couple, and they agreed they wanted to use the "nesting" arrangement for the sake of their child. Whether or not we like or agree with the nesting arrangement.......Phoenix has agreed with his W.

While he did agree to it, I think he agreed to it under duress. This is not a forever agreement. It was temporary at best. Agreements change all the time. He gets all of the negatives of this agreement and none of the positives while his W got everything she wanted.

If he's fine with it then great, he's the one living with it anyways.

WW: "I want OM"
Phoenix: "OK, get out".
WW: "You know I can't afford to"
Phoenix: "Not my problem"

He's propping her up, financing her affair. I'd bet my butt she's spending money to go see this guy, but she can't pay her basic bills?

Phoenix, sorry if this is too much. I just don't like it one bit. If it is, I'll just shut up. I want you to get better.

[Phoenix9]

I don't have time right now to give a full response, but I do want to say that I understand where I slipped.I am still not detached from her. I tell myself I am working on it because her actions are not affecting me as negatively as it used to. That being said, I know I need to keep my mouth shut. I try to ask for help by coming up with a response and asking for help here. It's not because I am on the fence of saying it, it's because in my mind, it is the right thing to say. Looking back Sandi, me telling WW that I did not want a D was a huge screw up.

And Sandi (and everyone else here). If I'm not being harped on, how will I learn? A good portion of the changes I have made is due to the tough love everyone has given to me. You do it because you care. Not because you're mean.

I'll continue to work on balance. It's something that has been pointed out to me by many others and it is a problem.

ovr, don't you dare shut up. I need this. I need an objective perspective because my thought process is still foggy and tangled.

[Ready2Change]

Let me know when you start day 1 of the challenge.

[Phoenix9]

I'm starting today R2C.