Still foggy, still going (Phoenix9 DB XI)

[SoTorn]

[quote=Phoenix9]I have always told my W at every stage of our situation that I would never be her friend.

And I truly meant it. All my ex-gf's? I stopped talking to them after we broke up. It's the best thing to get them back and for you. You need to find a way to make that happen in your sitch.

When I told my WW that I was not her friend she was absolutely stunned. Just looked at me like a deer in headlights. It's February now. 1.5 more months of this crap for me!

[Ready2Change]

Hi MrPhoenix9,


Do you research on PuppyDogtails (choc eyes and starksy309) and how he told his wife he had no intention on ever being her freind if she cut and run like this. ( I am sure it is in my quotes threads someplace)

Read this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57467&Number=2556761#Post2556761

This is when he served her divorce papers:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1141395#Post1141395

This is after they reconciled:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=42591&Number=1720949#Post1720949

[sandi2]

If the WW is in an A, she's going to want the LBH to be her BFF.......while she plays house with OM. The mistake LBH's make is thinking they can become a wayward W's buddy and thereby slowly working their relationship around to being more than friends. Some guys think they will wait around being the wayward W's pal and when OM plans fall through......then good ole hubby will be standing with his arms wide open for the return of his W. He hasn't changed her mind or caused her to fall for him, rather than OM. It is Plan B, at its finest. I have seen H's who thought they could play the nice guy friend until OM messed up and yada, yada, yada. The H does not become Plan A by being the WW's BFF.

The LBH and the WW view their "friendship" differently. He sees it as a vehicle to progress their relationship into more than just friends. Did you notice where I said she wants the LBH to be her BFF? Trust me, it is the selfish thinking of a WW, and she will manipulate it for all it's worth. It won't take long for the H to realize it is a one-sided "friendship" and she is simply using him.

Why did the uncle's WW react the way she did when uncle found a new GF? The WW does not want her position of control with the LBH to be replaced or threatened by another woman who will influence (maybe manipulate) him more than she can. As long as WW and uncle are legally M, then uncle and GF won't M, and WW still has leverage on the control strings. IDK why uncle hasn't M the GF, but my guess is that he is benefiting, too. Maybe everyone is benefiting from the setup, IDK. But I have learned everything is not always as it appears on the surface......especially when you have two women with a man in the middle.

If the uncle's WW is good friends with your W, then it is very possible she thinks this could work with Phoenix, her, and OM. (Guess you are wondering why I didn't say this at first, and leave off the rest).

I want to make something clear if I can. There is a difference in being friend-ly, and being BFF's. When the sh't hit the fan at my place, I said something along the same lines that other WW's say about how they hope they can always remain friends. My H just slowly shook his head, look dead in my eyes, and told me we would never be friends if I left him. Now, gentlemen.....as you may imagine, it takes a lot to shock me speechless, but that did it. Oh, the arrogance of a WW!

[SoTorn]

That is exactly what I told my WW Sandi. Yes she was shocked, but she absolutely refused to change her ways. Instead she just got extremely judgmental and critical of everything I do.

[sandi2]

That is exactly what I told my WW Sandi. Yes she was shocked, but she absolutely refused to change her ways. Instead she just got extremely judgmental and critical of everything I do.

I was stunned that my H would not want to be friends with me, but I did not change my ways. I mean, he's just an easy-going nice guy! It was hard to imagine him not being my friend after leaving him for another man.

I did not change my ways, either, until later when I decided to do the right thing.



.

[SoTorn]

That is exactly what I told my WW Sandi. Yes she was shocked, but she absolutely refused to change her ways. Instead she just got extremely judgmental and critical of everything I do.

I was stunned that my H would not want to be friends with me, but I did not change my ways. I mean, he's just an easy-going nice guy! It was hard to imagine him not being my friend after leaving him for another man.

I did not change my ways, either, until later when I decided to do the right thing.



.

Sandi, it seems that your H dropped the rope on you? If so, how did he end up changing his mind to where he wanted to R with you? I ask because I am at the point where I have no desire to R with my WW. I am actually repulsed by her. I don't want to talk to her, be around her, nothing. I couldn't imagine ever being in love, close or intimate with her again. I just can't.

[Adam04]

P,

I'm in the middle when it comes to talking to W about how we feel on something , like not being her friend if she leaves. I do find it important to stated it when it has impact and not overly keep stating it to diminish its value. I think it can command some respect so that's why I say this.

I also hear what Sandi is saying about how she felt H was a nice guy so probably didn't believe he would not be her BFF, so in some ways the current actions have to make her feel like you're serious in what you're saying.

Going back to respect, Sandi, was it too much going on to know if the initial shock of it was also the period when you gained a little respect for your H? In looking back, was there any respect you did gain from that for him and do you know when? Was it after reflection and when you decided to do the right thing?

I wanted to also say, regardless of how it makes W feel or when, I think it's healthy to know what is the right thing to do and do it, period. When the spouse is in the right frame of mind they can see you were too.

[Phoenix9]

Day 187,

My responses since my last post first:

The mistake LBH's make is thinking they can become a wayward W's buddy and thereby slowly working their relationship around to being more than friends. Some guys think they will wait around being the wayward W's pal and when OM plans fall through......then good ole hubby will be standing with his arms wide open for the return of his W. He hasn't changed her mind or caused her to fall for him, rather than OM. It is Plan B, at its finest.

I feel like I am still doing this, even though I have told my WW that I will not be her friend. When I softened up, I did not fall back to my old habits trying to appease her every request. I am still unavailable to her when I am busy, regardless of whether I am truly busy or not.

I’m kicking myself for telling her my desire for no D and trying to wrap my head on how I can start gaining my self-respect back.

I want to make something clear if I can. There is a difference in being friend-ly, and being BFF's.

That is what I am trying to achieve.

The LBH and the WW view their "friendship" differently. He sees it as a vehicle to progress their relationship into more than just friends. Did you notice where I said she wants the LBH to be her BFF? Trust me, it is the selfish thinking of a WW, and she will manipulate it for all it's worth. It won't take long for the H to realize it is a one-sided "friendship" and she is simply using him.

I keep saying that I see that, but I am still working on believing it and adjusting my behaviors based on what I get told here. There is a lot of conflicting advice that I have been reading about whether or not to be her friend. More often than not, the answer is "no". And that is the stance I told my WW I am taking.

Why did the uncle's WW react the way she did when uncle found a new GF? The WW does not want her position of control with the LBH to be replaced or threatened by another woman who will influence (maybe manipulate) him more than she can. As long as WW and uncle are legally M, then uncle and GF won't M, and WW still has leverage on the control strings. IDK why uncle hasn't M the GF, but my guess is that he is benefiting, too. Maybe everyone is benefiting from the setup, IDK. But I have learned everything is not always as it appears on the surface......especially when you have two women with a man in the middle.

If the uncle's WW is good friends with your W, then it is very possible she thinks this could work with Phoenix, her, and OM. (Guess you are wondering why I didn't say this at first, and leave off the rest).

Both the uncle and his WW are in separate (and seemingly happy) relationships. WW has since been dating someone who is a lot like the uncle. All of them demonstrate that they get alone very well. What is the truth, I really don't know. I have learned that it is fruitless to comprehend the WW's dynamic, regardless of who it is. And in my case, it's hard to comprehend the LBS as well. It's the reason why I post here so often is because even I don't even know what is going on. My emotions are locked in this intense battle with my logic. My logic is slowly chipping away at my emotional mindset, but it is still formidable and is still making my sitch all the more difficult. Maybe maybe keeping my mouth shut will still salvage this. That and giving the "you are free to pursue D, I will not stop you" answer.

My WW and uncle's WW still talk. I am not sure how often. And I would not be the least bit surprised if my WW has that mindset. I really hope that I told her that I don't want that kind of dynamic. Kind of hard to enforce now since I also told WW that I don't want a D.

I said something along the same lines that other WW's say about how they hope they can always remain friends. My H just slowly shook his head, look dead in my eyes, and told me we would never be friends if I left him. Now, gentlemen.....as you may imagine, it takes a lot to shock me speechless, but that did it.

I'm sure that she cried about it later, but I saw no reaction from her. She is still doing WW things. Of course at this point in my life, I am not surprised. I actually expect it.

I also hear what Sandi is saying about how she felt H was a nice guy so probably didn't believe he would not be her BFF, so in some ways the current actions have to make her feel like you're serious in what you're saying.

My actions have spoke volumes. I just need to continue and build on this.

I have GAL (Social!) plans tonight. I have my fancy clothes in my car so I will be changing before I leave work and head out to the city for some fun. Unsure of plans this weekend. I will have D4 in tow and money is tight so I will have to get creative.

[Ready2Change]

I can’t even do the RotG challenge because my mind careened and crashed yesterday.

I believe it is OK to skip a day here and there. Wishing you well on the challenge.

[sandi2]

There is a lot of conflicting advice that I have been reading about whether or not to be her friend.

It depends on the sitch. For example, if the couple are reconciling or have entered into the Piecing stage, then that's the time to be friends. You don't continue following the 37 rules, if you are in Piecing the Marriage back together.

The LBS has to evaluate their spouse and the sitch. In other words, if we are talking about a couple who broke up for reasons other than one spouse was wayward......then that could be an exception, but the LBS can't be BFF's if the other spouse is still wayward. The LBS can be civil, maybe even friend-ly.......but s/he cannot be buddies with the betrayer who continues to disrespect the LBS. There are several reasons, and the biggest one that comes to mind ATM is b/c the WS is a user. S/he wants the best of both worlds, therefore, s/he will use the LBS. It will not be a two-way friendship, b/c the WS is focused on what s/he can get or how s/he can use the LBS for her/his own benefit. The LBS cannot trust the WS as long as there is a third party in the M. There can be no friendship when the WS is clearly being disrespectful toward the LBS. FWIW, I believe this applies especially to the sitch with a wayward wife, b/c of how the level of respect in the woman is a determining factor in her feelings of love for her H.

If the couple has been physically separated or divorced, and the WS has cleaned up her/his act and approaches the LBS about dating again........the LBS can evaluate things. The LBS can start slow/small (like meet at a coffee shop) and slowly build a friendship, before jumping back into an intimate MR. If the WS won't treat the LBS good as friend, then there's a high risk s/he won't treat the LBS any better once they start living together.

It is important that the WS has ended the A, and ended GGW behavior, and has agreed to the terms of the LBS for reconciliation.......before the LBS considers building a friendship (if that's what s/he wants).


I guess I am crazy, but I have never thought of my H as my "friend". It doesn't mean there is no comradery in our relationship. He is my husband! That is a position only one person can fill. I rank a spouse at a much higher level than a friend. I think the whole idea of marrying one's best friend started back in the '70s, as best as I can recall. All the wedding invitations suddenly started saying "Today I marry my best friend", and now people think of a marriage like a friendship. I get it, but I don't really agree with it. However, I can refer to spouses being friends......as a language of accommodation.

I feel like I am still doing this, even though I have told my WW that I will not be her friend. When I softened up, I did not fall back to my old habits trying to appease her every request. I am still unavailable to her when I am busy, regardless of whether I am truly busy or not.

IMHO, some people confuse the friendly behavior with the relationship of friends. When working in the public, we usually approach customers/patrons with a smile on our face and use a professional greeting. Some jobs, such as a sales rep, require a persona of warmth & friendliness. However, after the transaction has been made, or the meeting has ended......everyone goes their separate ways. There was friend-ly behavior demonstrated, but there were no personal friendships established. Make sense?

Phoenix, I see you as an all or nothing kind of man, and maybe that's why it gets confusing. You are either all in, or out. When I told you that you didn't need to show anger, coldness, silence, etc. to your WW......you immediately decided to soften. But you have trouble finding the middle of the road.......or as I call it, balance. Let me ask you, how do you treat a cashier when you are purchasing something in a store? Are you rude, won't look at her/him, won't speak, ignore, complain, etc? Do you smile, speak, maybe make small chit-chat during the interaction? If it's the latter, do you try to do something to appease them, accommodate them, impress them, and try to have a relationship with them..........or do you kindly complete the business transaction and go on your way? Can you behave this way with your WW?

Why do you want to be her BFF while she is having an intimate affair with OM? That makes no sense to me. Why do you want to be a friend to someone who disrespects you? If that person disrespects you.....they are not a friend to you. I think the confusion comes b/c the LBH misses the closeness of his W. He misses the love. He misses the interaction with her. That's understandable, however, don't settle for a friendship while she scr@wing another man!

((hugs))