Story and Symptoms of a WAW/MLC

[Hurt213]

Hi I,

Been reading your story and as everybody here, I am sorry you are here, but I am glad you found this safe haven of people, who have all been where you are right now.

I have been around for a while now, and have begun to see the patterns, so I think that makes me able to contribute with a little knowledge that I have learned over time - take it for what it is, a contribution, not a me trying to rack down on your emotions or choices, they are yours completely. I am merely trying to offset your perspective on things a little here.

I think first of all, you are, understandably, very very detached. You want to work this out, you are changing, and you are listening to the best of your ability to the vet talk on here. However. I see a side of you, that you need to reflect upon. You are very, very much detached emotionally. And of course you are. But, you need to shift the focus. A lot of your journaling is based on how she reacts to things you do (you need to care about the things you do, but for your sake, for your kids sake, not for her sake - she is not important right now) <-- heck, she is researching vacations, making schedules for your separate lifes and what else there is...

Here are the facts.

1. Your wife fired you, and you need to accept, that for now, and maybe forever, she is no longer interested in you.

(yea Hurt, thats easy for you to say... <--- fuch no, its not. I have been where you are, with two small children aged 1 and 3 when this happened to me. Trust me, I know EXACTLY how bloody hard it is, to realize, that this will never EVER change for the better, as long as the focus is on what WW does, what WW thinks, and how WW reacts).

The change towards a bright future, starts within you. Do not give a rats ass about her actions unless they are actions that go beyond borders that you are willing to follow through on. Show her an I, who is strong, confident, moving forward - an I, who will be fine, who has goals in life, that you are willing to pursue, and she does not need to partake in those adventures, because.. she chose not to. Be respectful, validate her feelings, because. They are hers, and you can think they are dumb as fuch, but honestly, it is what she feels now, and you or no man for that fact, can or should change that.

She needs to see, a spouse, that has the courage to keep moving forward despite the adversity thrown at you. Hold your head high, be there for your family, and she will see, in time, what she is missing. Show her through your actions, and let her live her life, while you live yours. Do not act mean, condesenting but try to really listen when she says something. Holster your negative emotions, and only show her, that you are in a good place.

Two things in particular, and trust me, I have done this, because, wow its hard not to:

1.
Stop mind reading <-- "She put her hand on my arm", well there can be 1000 upon 1000 of reasons for that, and most likely the reason is not the one you want it to be, so dont dwell with these things. If she is ready to come back, I can assure you, that there will be a hell of a lot mere than arm patting coming your way. The signs will be clear as day.

2.
Covert contracts <--- "She made dinner, I then cleaned the dishes, and didn't receive a thank you.. not doing that again".. <-- you see, you didn't clean the dishes, because they needed cleaning. They were cleaned, because you EXPECTED an reaction from her. You are not in a place in time, where its wise to assume anything from her. You need to do things, because its the right thing to do. You will build up a lot of negative mental energy with covert contracts, where you do things, but expect something in return. Frankly, most of the time these contracts are not filled, and you will end up resenting her, and she sees you as weak and moping for it. That is not the I, you wanna show her because, who wants to be with a man like that?

I wish you have a wonderful day.

English is not my mothertongue, so pardon if some of the points im trying to make, strike you as odd.

/H

[SteveLW]

Hey Sandi and Steve, Im on my lunch break. There is something I would like to run by the board later this evening. For the time being. Who can make the best reccomendation of how I should be interacting with the W? We have officially been seperated in the house for the last week. I am not initiating any relationship talks what so ever from here on out, unless she brings it up. The only thing that gets discussed is finances and child care. She gave me a pat on the arm yesterday and it's how's my day when I came through the door. At her request, we talked over alternating weekiends of who watches our son for the whole weekend. I'm starting to understand the whole detaching process little bit better with love and integrity to myself now thanks to Steve with marital differentiation. Instead of taking things, hurt, and rejection personally. I understand that Sandi said to let my actions speak volumes, not my words. I can be pleasant just as much as she is in our daily interactions, but at what point in how do I start attempting at reconnecting? Someone who is planning their exit strategy of a M probably isn't going to mind so much if I don't discuss anything else with them other than the necessities, and isn't going to have an effect, on them. I understand I have to regain trust with my actions and not my words on a consistent basis. but at some point they are going to have to see everything I missed in the past that I'm changing now, and arouse some form of curiosity? I still think of me pulling away is more of the same behavior to her. who here can recommend a good balance example of the two between pulling away, and being engaged with W in good behavioral demonstration of things missed previously in the relationship?


This morning I read a Reddit forum of mostly women being the WAW, and ingested a totally different perspectice of their frustrations with some of us "men" which is totally understandable. I know I've probably exhibited a lot of these behaviors traits and characteristics somewhat unawaringly. Especially drive, vision, purpose, motivation, organization, and financial security. I realize my spouse has been staging, and researching for the last 8 months on a daily basis on forming a new life, and ways to live differently in another. She is researching her exit strategy. I will post on here later about what I was willing to consider, and having the board review it for discussion with her.

https://www.reddit.com/r/breakingmom/comments/8rxgyv/the_walk_away_wife_conversation/

AS gave you some good advice. Sandi often says that you treat her like the cashier at the store. Polite. Engaged. But not overly sharing. Friendly, present, upbeat.

Be careful. While I know there are forums out there for spouses that have blown up their marriages, hardly any of the complaints, short of physical abuse, or severe emotional and mental abuse, excuse going back on vows you took for lifetime. Were you a perfect husband? No. Does that give your W the right to just say "YEah you know those vows we took together? Yeah, I ain't feeling them anymore."

So while I am sure a bunch of WAWs could come up with some plausible sounding reasons why their vows are now meaningless to them, I don't think they really hold much water.

[SteveLW]

Here is a laugh and a half. W who in past always accused me of not remembering certain parts of conversations, (partial truth because I do have minor short term cognitive memory issues, which I am seeking help for.) (Years ago we used to date and sign important topics and events but fell by wayside.) There would also be times where W would withhold or neglect to mention vital pieces of information, appointment dates and social events, etc.and claim she told me, and never actually did. She is such a "cake eating" behavior specialist who cannot see her own behaviors, and always tries to have things both ways.

So anyways... Tonight I get home, go through the usual motions of "how was your day" asked how her father and mother were doing since dad in law wound up in hospital with pancreatitis, and has early dimentia, mom in law takes care if him and our son while we both work. She took off today to watch our son, the house looked like a tornado went through it, (As usual) Garbage and dishes all over the kitchen, living room, and dining room. (Some times Mom in law cleans up her mess when she baby sits here. She did nothing absolutely nothing all day but, browse online for her new fantasy life, and researching potential places of vacationing there. (fact) and paid a few joint bills. She made up a schedule yesterday of split responsibilities, bills, and parenting schedules.

So first thing I discuss is the in-laws, then I move the subject to a bargining of me watching our son tomorrow since she took off today, I will use a vacation day for tomorrow to watch our son and relieve my mother in law, but on the condition that she leave work by 2pm to alleviate me, since i have IC appointment at 3pm. We both are taking off Friday for son's eye surgery. She eventually agrees to proposition. Neglected to tell me she took half day yesterday. Said sick days were dwindling. Last week I took half day to pick her up for endoscopy from hospital as preliminary for gastric bypass. Then she changes her mind over weekend. Shes not going to do it. Now she's stsrying to exercise with DDP Yoga. Proud of her for taking natural route. Lets see if she stays committed and motivated to actual hard work. Or if this is just more of $$ wasted on health plans that she fails to stay committed to.

Since she cooked dinner for both of us, I agreed to do the dishes out of consideration, and thanked her twice for cooking. ( No thank you's from her for the clean up.) Last time I do that. Sticking with seperated meals and responsibilities F/T now. I eat at the table intentionally with my son. She as usual sits on the couch watching Teresa's Psychic Medium, Jersey Shore, Vanderpump whatever.. (more reality shows.)

I make a mention of her initial proposal of alternation each individual watching S every other weekend. I set ground rules of no switching or last minute cancellation without 24hrs to 48hrs notice. We discuss logistics of whole weekends with S and how that looks inside IHS. Since baby's room is next to MBR and Guest rm. Where she now resides. Its expected that I still hang in basement to "give her her space" but I now sleep in MBR. I agree to hang with S in basement on "my weekends." N.P.
(Going to be tough because he climbs stairs now.) Have to get door in stairwell.

This is where it gets comical. She forgot that I moved back into MBR, even though its been a week! She wanted me to sleep with him in basement and change him down there as well. (Whole IHS scripted plan.) So I replied "Wait What!?" Then it hit her. I'm still upstairs in MBR. So then I bring up topic of vacationing and parenting, just to throw her another curve ball since she was researching vacation packages, properties and arbnb in her fantasy new life escape destination. She replies back, monies are tight and doesn't plan on going anywhere for spring break or vacationing anywhere right now. (Teacher) But with body language, shakes head in bewilderment and surprise of why I would ask that (denial) I then propose we each take a turn every night putting our S to bed. (Good practice for future post D and physically seperated single life.) Since i am working 8hrs a day and driving for another 5hrs. Trying to keep new workout schedule. Probably will have to switch it to mornings. I only typically sleep 4 hrs a night and has been that way for years.

So IH, how did you feel after this discussion? My experience is that I felt like crap after these discussions. Oh sure there were some mixed emotions. "I really told her when I said XYZ!" But the problem is that these discussion do not do anything to get you where you want to be. That is why we advise to NOT bring up an R talk. And only listen and validate when she does. If she presses for an answer "Please give me a yes or no on splitting childcare." A simple "This is a lot to consider and I will need some time before I provide an answer."

But anyway. I am sorry but I just have to say it, I am not sure how remaining in the basement with S during your weekends earns you respect from her? I mentioned Nice Guy Syndrome to you before. You show NGS tendencies. Please try to read No MOre Mr. Nice Guy. It is NOT about becoming a jerk. It is about how being nice doesn't earn you anything. For instance, a lot of nice guys think that by being nice a woman should sleep with them. Hidden agendas. You aren't really being nice, you are being nice thinking it will benefit you in some way. It is a great read.

[SteveLW]

Hi I,

Been reading your story and as everybody here, I am sorry you are here, but I am glad you found this safe haven of people, who have all been where you are right now.

I have been around for a while now, and have begun to see the patterns, so I think that makes me able to contribute with a little knowledge that I have learned over time - take it for what it is, a contribution, not a me trying to rack down on your emotions or choices, they are yours completely. I am merely trying to offset your perspective on things a little here.

I think first of all, you are, understandably, very very detached. You want to work this out, you are changing, and you are listening to the best of your ability to the vet talk on here. However. I see a side of you, that you need to reflect upon. You are very, very much detached emotionally. And of course you are. But, you need to shift the focus. A lot of your journaling is based on how she reacts to things you do (you need to care about the things you do, but for your sake, for your kids sake, not for her sake - she is not important right now) <-- heck, she is researching vacations, making schedules for your separate lifes and what else there is...

Here are the facts.

1. Your wife fired you, and you need to accept, that for now, and maybe forever, she is no longer interested in you.

(yea Hurt, thats easy for you to say... <--- fuch no, its not. I have been where you are, with two small children aged 1 and 3 when this happened to me. Trust me, I know EXACTLY how bloody hard it is, to realize, that this will never EVER change for the better, as long as the focus is on what WW does, what WW thinks, and how WW reacts).

The change towards a bright future, starts within you. Do not give a rats ass about her actions unless they are actions that go beyond borders that you are willing to follow through on. Show her an I, who is strong, confident, moving forward - an I, who will be fine, who has goals in life, that you are willing to pursue, and she does not need to partake in those adventures, because.. she chose not to. Be respectful, validate her feelings, because. They are hers, and you can think they are dumb as fuch, but honestly, it is what she feels now, and you or no man for that fact, can or should change that.

She needs to see, a spouse, that has the courage to keep moving forward despite the adversity thrown at you. Hold your head high, be there for your family, and she will see, in time, what she is missing. Show her through your actions, and let her live her life, while you live yours. Do not act mean, condesenting but try to really listen when she says something. Holster your negative emotions, and only show her, that you are in a good place.

Two things in particular, and trust me, I have done this, because, wow its hard not to:

1.
Stop mind reading <-- "She put her hand on my arm", well there can be 1000 upon 1000 of reasons for that, and most likely the reason is not the one you want it to be, so dont dwell with these things. If she is ready to come back, I can assure you, that there will be a hell of a lot mere than arm patting coming your way. The signs will be clear as day.

2.
Covert contracts <--- "She made dinner, I then cleaned the dishes, and didn't receive a thank you.. not doing that again".. <-- you see, you didn't clean the dishes, because they needed cleaning. They were cleaned, because you EXPECTED an reaction from her. You are not in a place in time, where its wise to assume anything from her. You need to do things, because its the right thing to do. You will build up a lot of negative mental energy with covert contracts, where you do things, but expect something in return. Frankly, most of the time these contracts are not filled, and you will end up resenting her, and she sees you as weak and moping for it. That is not the I, you wanna show her because, who wants to be with a man like that?

I wish you have a wonderful day.

English is not my mothertongue, so pardon if some of the points im trying to make, strike you as odd.

/H

Very well said, I could not have said it better myself and English is my mother tongue!

[IHCLACS]

Hi Hurt 213 Thank you for the insight. Actually quite the contrary. I am very attached still. I am just not showing it front of her anymore. Everyday gets a little bit better, its a process. I go back and forth with my emotions on.

Truth is she is a planner, and am envious and jealous of her that she is making big plans for her "new life" She has vision, direction, and ambition. I am curious if her commitment level to things though will actually have her follow through with it in the future? She's also the type that starts a lot of new things with zeal, but never sticks with them for long permenant change. Just the fact that she's trying and looking to new things in life is scaring the hell out of me, especially if it involves taking my son across the country. She trying to figure out how to move forward without me and is is slowly makung her plans for it. Because I am codependent I need to get away from that. I can and I will but it's just going to take time. I have to get stronger for myself and my son's sake. I'm a very emotional person, changing by the hour, and it's taking time for me to disconnect. It has been 6 months since BD.
She thinks I'm bipolar but I'm not I've been testing twice. It may be Borderline Personality Disorder however.

I've always worked to make money to support, but have always had an issue with long term goals in life, having change stick, planning, follow through, time managenent, etc. In this area of my life, I do have low self esteem in this area due to cognitive functioning, short term memory impairment, performance anxiety, poor executive management, proper prioritization, etc, is something I've struggled with all my life since the age of 10, and my wife is well aware of it being a behavior specialist and teacher. I have sought numerous avenues of help with specialists and IC in the to identify, and attempt different organizational systems, actions plans, and neutralceuticals to cope, But it didn't stick or help due to my lack of commitment. According to my assessment from 10 years ago literally when we first got married , there again is a possibility of performance anxiety, histrionic negative personality, possibly BPD, and impaired cognitive functions. I have always been a visual learner from early on in my auditory skills aren't so great which I'm also looking to improve on. These attributes of mine have led to work instability and job loss over the years, self esteem issues excetera and temporary depression. I have OCD tendencies compensate, for functioning in chaos.

I'm doing fine now but I am looking for more in life. I have to get better at planning and managing, especially if the future holds co-parenting situations, and total Independence on my part. Today I have an appointment, and am going to try meds this time which I have been dead set against for years. I come from a family that lives in the past, is more of a conflict dealing style family, that lives day-to-day instead of planning for the future, lacking purpose and drive, with a victim mentality mindset.

I can do, I can initialize, and I put all my focus into it, but I can't prioritize well. It's not that I'm sitting here giving me excuses it's just that there's just some things I just cannot help, unless I take new and proactive measures to really change, as hard as that may be. I am an early riser and do have a very strong work ethics. I'm trying to start a lot of new things for me, but I also have a lot of current problems in my household, financially and physically consisting of unfished projects and stuff that I need to take care of first. I'm cleaning up things a little bit at a time.

As far as a mind reading of her patting me on the arm. I wasn't reading into it or taking it for breadcrumbs. Just an observation, and the covert contracts of expecting a thank you from a generally nice person, I wasn't expecting a thank you from her, It was just another observation of how she gets lost in her own world of reality shows in the evening, and I would have considered it appropriate that if I thank or twice for making dinner she could at least have the manners thank me for doing the dishes, since she is generally a nice and considerate and polite person.

Hope this gives everyone here a better idea of where I am what I struggle with, and how difficult it is going to be for me to change over time. I hope the meds might help restore some focus, some cognitive counseling, even with conflicting work schedules.

I know I need to detach completely, GAL, etc. it's just going to take time you can't just make changes all at once in one day. But I am committed to the process.

[IHCLACS]

Steve 85. I totally hear what you are saying about their feelings, and vows, rather than operating on principles, values, and commitments. She did ask me a couple of things last night revolving around putting her son to bed, and who takes turns one after I brought it up. Rather than giving her a direct answer I told her I'd let me think about it and get back to her on. I think where everyone's going with that strategy. It gives you time to think in a rational manner rather than placate on an emotional basis and state. I will definitely read No More Mr. Nice guy this weekend. Every time I hear it mentioned it makes me think of Alice Cooper...lol

[IHCLACS]

Thank you everyone here for really taken the time to analyze what I'm saying experiencing I really appreciate your dedication, time, and commitment to what you're doing and helping others I just want you to know that

[SteveLW]

From Jeep's thread:

Steve85. That list is exactly what I'm looking for and more in changes for myself and implementing them. that last list of accolades sounds like through sacrifice and Husbandly Leadership My biggest question though is the transition. That's the part that I'm not understanding. If I'm currently going through an in-house separation where we are dividing everything, from rooms, to space, to finances and schedules, only discussing necessities, and things are kind of isolated to ourselves individually, which in current reality has just become a more closed of more of the same behavior.

what I'm trying to say here is in my household when we would have dinner I would always try to eat at the table with the wife and son, but it would rarely happen because she always had her stuff parked all over the table. she would always eat at the couch play games on her phone and watch reality tv as I'm sure you know my story already. I would always be stuck doing the dishes all the time at 2 in the morning before I would go to work, and she was ever clean up after herself. Of course this led me to be being overly critical of her. she's doing a lot of research about moving to another state and start another life without me.

What I am specifically asking for is, what are some ways that we all here can go about creating opportunities of being at least a better father and a leading example of what a good husband should be and an example of leadership should be in front of their wife when all they want is their space and their escape and exit? How can we go about creating these opportunities without pursuing? I don't mean to hijack jeepdog's post. but I think if you can explain the transition process it would probably be helpful and beneficial to all of us on here. Great post by the way. Jeepdog, I wish you luck in making those changes into a newer better version of yourself.

IH, I really see two questions here.

1 How do I transition from my bad behaviors to my new behaviors (180s).

2. How do I get her to see my changes?

IH, this are typical questions for guys going through sitches like ours. "I want to make change, but we are IHS, or physically separated". We even had one poster last year that was under a TRO and could have no contact with his wife.

1) Is easy. Just do it. Don't do it for her. Or for her to see. Just really take stock and MAKE real changes to be a better person, man, father, husband, partner, son, brother, friend. EVERYTHING. These changes are for you be the best IHCLACS (what does that stand for by the way?) that you can be. It will make you happier! Trust me, that list I published in Jeep's thread, the guy living in the first list was miserable. The guy living the second list is so much happier, fulfilled, and pleased. DO IT FOR YOU.

2) No matter your sitch. IHS. Living in separate houses. Separated by thousands of miles. Or even under a RO. The answer to part to is that whenever you have interactions with her. Whatever the forum. You demostrate #1 to her. This is actually easy too. Because once you transform form old IH to new IH, she will notice whenever you interact.

Quick story I've told here before. Last Feb. my W, who was in the middle of her being a WAW, agreed to go to a faith-based marriage retreat. I didn't ask her to go, in fact I almost pulled the plug on the trip. But it was a couple at church that was going and wanted us to go too. They asked us and to my surprise she said yes. So we were there, it went well except for the Saturday we were there at lunch, she made a comment that sparked an R talk. It was a rough one, but she actually seemed to move closer after the talk. That's not the point. On the way home, we were stopping to grab a bite at a drive-thru. While we were waiting she started to be silly. Old Steve85 would have been annoyed by it, said something passive-aggressive, and shut it down. New Steve85 chuckled, and started to repeat her sillycomment, and laugh a little harder about it. She stopped, turned and look me right in the eye, and said "Who are you?"

If you truly change, she will notice.

[sandi2]

I can be pleasant just as much as she is in our daily interactions, but at what point in how do I start attempting at reconnecting?

The short answer is.....when she stops being a WW.

What images do you have, when you think of reconnecting? I believe it was your thread where I said that the WW does not give the bomb drop in order to wake up her H. She is not wanting him to start working on their MR. She wants to be free. The IHS is simply a step in that direction, as far as she is concerned.

I'm not sure you can reconnect with a WW. It would be very unhealthy for you, IMHO. At the very best, she would friend zone you. Instead of thinking at what point you can start reconnecting, you first need to let her go. Can you do it?

[lost8]

Agree agree agree.....listen to what is being said here!!!!! I went along with the reconnecting 5 months ago while she was still a WW. Nothing but cake eating and more pain and anxiety for me.

It wasn't until I figured myself out and dropped that rope. That has been the only thing that was effective on kicking that biotch out of the fog.