MLC? Confused what to do (Part 2)

[SteveLW]

Anthony, did you have another discussion with her?

[AnthonyA]

Ok, so this may be a long one but BLUF (bottom line up front), she will be moving out on a temporary basis after more discussions. So how did we get to this point...

So I have been talking to my BIL since he used to be on this very forum when he was going through this with his ex wife and my sister. So I was talking to him on the process of giving her the dissolution or divorce options this coming Wednesday. I was talking to him via Facetime Audio most of the day off and on.

Around 6:30PM or so, one of the D7 fell off her chair and hurt herself. I was up in my room at the time. I got off the phone with BIL and went to check on D7 and my WINO went off on me saying "She's fine, Anthony. Why don't you just go F* back to chatting to whoever you were talking to"

I just sat there like WTF and waited until she got the ice pack for my D7. I then followed her up the stairs and asked what that was about since she did it in front of all three children. She said that she looked at the phone bill and saw that I was talking to her dad. She then started yelling saying I am done. I am done. Leave me alone, etc real loud. I asked her calmly if I could come in and talk to her. I told her it was important and I needed to talk to her. She finally let me in. All I told her was that I was going to wait until Wednesday to talk to her but I wanted to tell her that we can either do a dissolution or a divorce. She said dissolution. She said a few more things and I told her that I don't want to discuss that right now and that she was acting very immature. She said that me talking to my BIL and sister is unfair because they only hear my side. Then she says that she only has talked to two of her friends. I told her they know everything and then said we can talk some other time on dissolution. That is when I typed up the dissolution message previously.

I left the room. I spoke to the BIL and as I am speaking to him, my sister gets a text from my W. BIL is good on diffusing situations and helped my sister type up a response and W and sister exchanged a couple texts. BIL told me to just stay away from her since emotions are riding high.

I went back to my room and next thing I know, I am getting a knock on the door and the W is there. She comes in and first starts talking about a dissolution and her thinking is that the house would be too much for her to take care of and the three kids need to stay there. She mentioned just letting me have the children and house. If I am ok with her keeping her part time job during the dissolution. I told her I have no say what she does on keeping the job, etc as that is her decision.

Somehow as we talked, it transitioned or she mentioned that is the reason she wanted to just have a separation because of the issues we have had. I told her, I understood, but since she only allowed me to have a legal separation and it was advised against from the attorney, it was a non starter. She then said, no, I wanted to do a separation away from the legal system. I told her that is not what she said in that text letter she sent me.

We then went down that path that I am open to her moving out and seeing where it goes from there. I told her my one non-negotiable was that the OM never meet my children. If I hear and I told her they would tell me, it would be straight to divorce.

We spoke some more on her getting mroe information from the apartment place and getting a budget together.

She wanted to make it clear to me that this had nothing to do with the OM and this is about her never being on her own since she went from her parents house to living with me. She has never been in control of her own life as she said. She said if the only thing that happen between me and her BFF, she would have been able to forgive me. But the yelling and screaming and drinking over the past 1.5 years has traumatized her. She is saying that is the reason that she is not able to forgive me for now. She also mentioned that she has put up a wall around me which has caused her to put a wall up around the kids too.

I believe it has to do with the OM still and still in this fog that I am this hateful person. Our last 1.5 years had some up and downs. There was some arguments where I yelled and screamed. We also both drank a lot. Again, my last drink of alcohol was 28 Jan. I have been calmer. I am still working on some other things. So I would be curious if you still think this is WW behavior, Sandi. She acts like she will not be able to forgive me and this has nothing to do with OM and she doesn't believe in soulmates, etc.

[SteveLW]

Anthony, I do not mean this as a 2x4 since the water is already under the bridge. I mean it more as a cautionary tale for other people struggling in there sitches. But this is a clear example of impatience, leading to breaking DB principles, escalating the sitch to levels that it is best not to escalate things too.

Talking to friends and family, AND especially talking to your WAS's family is a flat-out bad idea. And this is why. It is rarely seen favorably by the LBS and will almost always be seen as rallying the troops against them.

Also, following her to her room and insisting to discuss things? Not necessary. A firm but calm "I will not tolerate your talking to me like that in front of our children." and then walking away would have been the better way to handle this.

Also, you have been so insistent on her or you moving out. I know sandi was advocating you getting her to move out, but you seemed fixated on it. Yes your WW is asking for time and space. But as we've discussed that can be done with IHS. Yes, there are those of that post here that are in disagreement on IHS. However, I still maintain that the only reason a WAW needs her own place is to sleep with other people. I know OM is sticking in your crawl, but I don't see how you or her moving out helps with that. In fact with your lack of self-control I can see lots of wondering what she is doing in your future.

Finally, your lack of patience in letting her work through her stuff is working against you. BIG TIME. We all went through being told we were the reason for all of the WAS's problems. Yes, it appeared that there was no hope. IN ALL of our sitches. WAS. WS. Doesn't matter. By time we get to a BD, we are now the whole of all of the WAS's problems and their only solution to their problems is to jettison the LBS. And when the LBS applies pressure and pursuit, and that is all you've done since you've been posting here, it cements that believe in the WAS's mind. That is what GAL and detachment, along with 180s is all about. It gives the WAS the time and space to realize that the LBS is NOT the source of all of their problems.

One last point, and then I'll let sandi and the real experts help you from here on out, but for all of her insistence that she is done, she went and looked at the phone bill. That is not the actions of someone that is "done". By way of comparison, my WW didn't give a flip about what I was doing. I could have brought an OW back our house and banged her in the marital bed, and she would have shrugged her shoulders and said, good on you! SHE DIDN'T CARE. That is how far gone my WW was, and still came back.

[SteveLW]

Oh and one last point:

I went back to my room and next thing I know, I am getting a knock on the door and the W is there. She comes in and first starts talking about a dissolution and her thinking is that the house would be too much for her to take care of and the three kids need to stay there. She mentioned just letting me have the children and house. If I am ok with her keeping her part time job during the dissolution. I told her I have no say what she does on keeping the job, etc as that is her decision.

This was my WW's plan as well. It was her way of easing her conscience. "I want you to keep the house and xxxx live there. I could still have a key and come help out. We could even have family dinner nights!"

My response? "No. We will agree to 50/50 custody. We will split everything down the middle, sell the house and split hte equity, everything." She got insistent that that wasn't what she wanted. I then looked her point-blank in the face and said: "It isn't fair that you get to move on and start a new life, but I don't get to do the same." That ended all talk of anything but a typical divorce.

[sandi2]

So I would be curious if you still think this is WW behavior, Sandi.

Absolutely!

I think Steve and I can respectfully have a different point of view on this situation. I don't see having her leave as giving her opportunity to sleep with OM. She's been sleeping with him for a while now. IMHO, it is worse when she's living under your roof, benefiting from your provisions, sleeping with the OM, and disrespecting you in front of your kids. Google IHS and see if anyone suggests doing it when infidelity is involved. I have not seen any professional type recommend IHS when a spouse is having an affair. From what I saw, it recommends agreeing to ground rules; that it's understood the S is temporary and the couple will continue the MR. It was recommended mostly in order to give some space.....like a cooling off period. The couple should set an amount of days for this cooling off period, and then go back to sleeping in the same bed. Nowhere did I read that IHS is recommended b/c one spouse wants out of the M and/or wants to date & have sex with other people.

The other reason I did not support IHS in your case is b/c of the intense atmosphere. Look at the angry reactions.....combined with verbal abuse in front of the children. You thought she was being cold about your child falling, well she was angry at you, and she took it out on the child..........b/c I'll bet you were being a lot more sympathetic toward the child than you were in past times. You are trying to be a more attentive father, and she thinks it's a ploy. It rubs her raw! Everything you do makes her mad! Even tending to your child when she falls makes her react in anger. (The anger is part of her wayward mindset.) You both are a heartbeat away from some type of domestic violence. With her drinking, staying out playing GGW, and sleeping with OM........it's leading to something worse. If she calls the cops and makes charges (real or fake), they will arrest you. And, I'm not sure you are completely innocent. As your W said, we only hear your side, and you've made reference of having something else to work on (other than drinking). Anger issues, drugs, or whatever else may be in addition, only raises the risk factor.

So, I still feel that both of you need time apart in order to deal with your issues and heal as two separate adults. As long as you are under the same roof, your deep wounds stay afresh.

She wanted to make it clear to me that this had nothing to do with the OM and this is about her never being on her own since she went from her parents house to living with me. She has never been in control of her own life as she said.

She's lying. A mother does not walk away from her children in order to see what it's like to live on her own. Besides, she will only work part time? Pl...ease! That's not making it on her own. That's a paid vacation!

[AnthonyA]

As your W said, we only hear your side, and you've made reference of having something else to work on (other than drinking). Anger issues, drugs, or whatever else may be in addition, only raises the risk factor.

So, I still feel that both of you need time apart in order to deal with your issues and heal as two separate adults. As long as you are under the same roof, your deep wounds stay afresh.

I was referencing the NMMNG and getting my B@lls back as you put it. Working on my fear of abandonment. She has admitted to hitting me. Even the text to my sister. I have never retaliated when she hits me. No other drugs or anger issues. I have actually been calm. Just wanted that to be clear.

I think it will be better her moving out for a while. How long, I don't know. But she can't get in until possibly Apr 1st. I will continue to try and detach in the meantime. MC was cancelled but I am going to meet with her 1 on 1 to help me work on my fear of abandonment issues that caused problems in the relationship. I have my normal IC on Wednesday.

I had forwarded to my BIL her plans for the week where she was telling me when she was going out and for me to plan around it. One example is tomorrow night at 8pm, she was going out. On a work night and the kids have school the next morning. She puts them on the bus. I didn't respond to her email. She asked if I got it.

SHe is now putting a budget together for her apartment. Asking my advice on things. At one point, she thought it would only cost about $675 a month for her to live. She estimated $30 a week on groceries but then only accounted for $30 in her monthly number. I think $120 is wishful thinking on groceries a month. She also asked about gas. I told her it depends on how much going out she will be doing. Also, eating out, etc. Other than that, I haven't talked to her about that. I have about 3 weeks of her in the house before potentially her moving out. I will continue to just do what I need to do and go from there.

[sandi2]

I was referencing the NMMNG and getting my B@lls back as you put it. Working on my fear of abandonment. She has admitted to hitting me. Even the text to my sister. I have never retaliated when she hits me. No other drugs or anger issues. I have actually been calm. Just wanted that to be clear.

Thanks. Anthony, I'm glad to hear you clarify what you meant. Speaking of getting your b@lls back, I look at that the same way as doing 180's. Some H's want their WW to remain in the house, so he'll have a chance to show off his "improvements". She's already made up her mind. There is no improvement he could make to change her mind when she's wayward. She'll just resent him for it. (She's the one with the problem b/c she's wayward). 180's don't necessarily mean in terms of self improvement. In some cases there are 180's (such as getting his b@lls back). I see your situation as very unhealthy and things are steadily getting worse. If she sees you being assertive (shall we say), I'm worried she will claim you are being aggressive and she is afraid. I've read several stories over the years how WW's will make fake claims that they are "afraid". One WW was throwing a terrible fit, and her H simply walked into the doorway of the room, and she called the cops and claimed he was physically preventing her from leaving the room. They put him in handcuffs and took him to jail. Oh, and she got the idea for fake charges from her BFF.

Yes, I want all men to have their b@lls. I'm just saying that what you may interpret as a demonstration of having your b@lls back..... and how she'll decide to use it against you.....could be two different things. Make sense? Things have reached a very serious stage. You can have b@lls when facing a hungry tiger, and still be eaten alive. So, be smart. She's already shown DV by hitting you in you in anger and it will get worse until she gets away from you. See, this situation is building, and not in a good way. You two need physical space from each other.

[AnthonyA]

I do agree. I think our sit down yesterday, was really really good. Unfortunately, she can't move out until next month. She did say this to my sister: vindictive and angry at her.

When I talked to her about what I talked to my sister and BIL, I just said that my sister just is checking on me and saying she wishes I wasn't going through this. BIL is neutral and helping me not be emotional. She then mentioned the vindictive and angry towards her. She thought I was going to do something to her in divorce to screw her over. I told her yes, I am angry. You are having an open affair. Why wouldn't I be angry. I said but that doesn't mean I would try to make you out as a bad mother to the children. She is a great mother to them and cares. This WW and affair fog has done something to her. I am just hopeful she wakes up from it. Then that is when we discussed the temporary moving out to give space and time.

I understand that space and time heals. I also know I can't control what she does. It will be easier and healthier that she isn't in the house. I can focus on me and focus on detaching. I know that I might sit there sometimes and wonder what she is doing, etc. But it is better than knowing when she leaves and arriving at the house (knowing where she is going) and messing with my psych.

I just don't know how much time it will take or will I be willing to take. I did tell her that I am not willing to do this temporary thing for years. I told her lets give it a couple months, and go from there. We shall see.

I am happy but also been bawling because of this decision. I know my marriage was already lost. I know it will be difficult on the children. But in the end it is the best for both of us for us to be apart as much as possible.

I just hope she works on herself and she is going to continue IC even outside the house. Right now, she is still benefiting from my health insurance. I don't know a timeline that typically sees changes. I don't know what type of loss she will need to occur (if there is any) to wake up out of this fantasy of being "alone" and free to do what she wants.

All I know is that I can focus on me and detach and try to go from there. I refused to leave the house. At least I stood my ground on that front.

And I definitely understand the b@lls can cause conflicts while they are in the house. The drinking and yelling/screaming is already done. I feel calmer. But definitely don't need to give her ammunition to do that. Every time I want to say, she wouldn't do that so I don't have to worry. I find out that those are famous last words when it comes to WW.

[SoTorn]

Ok, so this may be a long one but BLUF (bottom line up front), she will be moving out on a temporary basis after more discussions. So how did we get to this point...

So I have been talking to my BIL since he used to be on this very forum when he was going through this with his ex wife and my sister. So I was talking to him on the process of giving her the dissolution or divorce options this coming Wednesday. I was talking to him via Facetime Audio most of the day off and on.

Around 6:30PM or so, one of the D7 fell off her chair and hurt herself. I was up in my room at the time. I got off the phone with BIL and went to check on D7 and my WINO went off on me saying "She's fine, Anthony. Why don't you just go F* back to chatting to whoever you were talking to"

I just sat there like WTF and waited until she got the ice pack for my D7. I then followed her up the stairs and asked what that was about since she did it in front of all three children. She said that she looked at the phone bill and saw that I was talking to her dad. She then started yelling saying I am done. I am done. Leave me alone, etc real loud. I asked her calmly if I could come in and talk to her. I told her it was important and I needed to talk to her. She finally let me in. All I told her was that I was going to wait until Wednesday to talk to her but I wanted to tell her that we can either do a dissolution or a divorce. She said dissolution. She said a few more things and I told her that I don't want to discuss that right now and that she was acting very immature. She said that me talking to my BIL and sister is unfair because they only hear my side. Then she says that she only has talked to two of her friends. I told her they know everything and then said we can talk some other time on dissolution. That is when I typed up the dissolution message previously.

I left the room. I spoke to the BIL and as I am speaking to him, my sister gets a text from my W. BIL is good on diffusing situations and helped my sister type up a response and W and sister exchanged a couple texts. BIL told me to just stay away from her since emotions are riding high.

I went back to my room and next thing I know, I am getting a knock on the door and the W is there. She comes in and first starts talking about a dissolution and her thinking is that the house would be too much for her to take care of and the three kids need to stay there. She mentioned just letting me have the children and house. If I am ok with her keeping her part time job during the dissolution. I told her I have no say what she does on keeping the job, etc as that is her decision.

Somehow as we talked, it transitioned or she mentioned that is the reason she wanted to just have a separation because of the issues we have had. I told her, I understood, but since she only allowed me to have a legal separation and it was advised against from the attorney, it was a non starter. She then said, no, I wanted to do a separation away from the legal system. I told her that is not what she said in that text letter she sent me.

We then went down that path that I am open to her moving out and seeing where it goes from there. I told her my one non-negotiable was that the OM never meet my children. If I hear and I told her they would tell me, it would be straight to divorce.

We spoke some more on her getting mroe information from the apartment place and getting a budget together.

She wanted to make it clear to me that this had nothing to do with the OM and this is about her never being on her own since she went from her parents house to living with me. She has never been in control of her own life as she said. She said if the only thing that happen between me and her BFF, she would have been able to forgive me. But the yelling and screaming and drinking over the past 1.5 years has traumatized her. She is saying that is the reason that she is not able to forgive me for now. She also mentioned that she has put up a wall around me which has caused her to put a wall up around the kids too.

I believe it has to do with the OM still and still in this fog that I am this hateful person. Our last 1.5 years had some up and downs. There was some arguments where I yelled and screamed. We also both drank a lot. Again, my last drink of alcohol was 28 Jan. I have been calmer. I am still working on some other things. So I would be curious if you still think this is WW behavior, Sandi. She acts like she will not be able to forgive me and this has nothing to do with OM and she doesn't believe in soulmates, etc.

It has everything to do with the OM. My WW said the same thing when she moved upstairs. My WW was finding herself, she said we were married too young and didnt have a chance to find ourselves, that she has no plans or future with OM, that she was doing this for her".

Guess what? She still full tilt in A with OM to this day, in fact, she is flying back from a spending a week with him which now includes the weekends. My WW used to only travel during the week, since Valentines day she now travels for the entire week including Saturday and Sunday.

She wants to get away so she can further her relationship with OM. Period.

[SteveLW]

I just hope she works on herself and she is going to continue IC even outside the house. Right now, she is still benefiting from my health insurance. I don't know a timeline that typically sees changes. I don't know what type of loss she will need to occur (if there is any) to wake up out of this fantasy of being "alone" and free to do what she wants.

That is an awfully tight grip you have on that rope. Time and space is not looking over your shoulder at what she is doing. I will try to find a post I wrote to another poster, Did, because he could not bring himself to let go of the rope! Guess what, Did is moving toward finalizing their divorce. All because he couldn't TRULY give her time and space. Maybe the time and space wouldn't have changed that for him.....but now he will never know.