Persistent Endurance

[sandi2]

Hi Curtis, you said you've read several stories here, so I guess you see how familiar they are to your own. Did you complete the book, Divorce Remedy?

I encourage you to read the links in that Cadet sent you. Among those are some threads I wrote about the wayward W. I hope you'll read them.

It is difficult for a H to believe and/or accept that his W is wayward. He had much rather think she's having a MLC. Honestly, she can turn around faster from waywardness than a MLC.......if that's any comfort to hear. As it has already been stated, it does take time, and usually it's much longer than the H ever dreamed.

Please do not show this board or any of these posts to your W. These are for your eyes only. By now, you have seen it doesn't work in your favor to try to get her to read anything supporting marriage.

You'll hear advice that is totally opposite of what feels like you should be doing. In fact, you'll be scared to do it. How do I know? B/c you have too much fear of losing her, and that fear is going to cost you mightily.

Hope you'll stick with us. Post every chance you get.

[SteveLW]

Curtis, I know you are not done with your updates. However, I have noticed a pattern. You say "I am giving her space. I am letting her go to get her back. etc....." However, then you talk about snooping, confronting, asking questions and starting R talks.

Notice, in none of the books or programs (and I read most of them myself, and even bought the Manly Man program) did they say "giver he time and space unless she has an OM". Time and space is for her to figure her stuff out. Letting her go means letting her go, not letting her go unless she is in an EA, PA, texting other men, etc.

You are pushing her out the door. You are cementing your fate of D. The tighter you hold on to her the more she will struggle to get away. WWs are like a cat. If you pick up and cat and try to hold it on your lap, it will fight you with every fiber of its being to get away. But if you let the cat come to you, jump up on its own and lay on your lap, it will lay there for hours at a time.

STOP THE PRESSURE. STOP THE PURSUIT. STOP TRYING TO CONTROL HER. Drop the rope, let her go. Focus on your 180s, your GAL, and your detachment. You have to get to a place where she could tell you she went to a hotel, and gang-banged 100 guys, and it would roll off your back like water off a duck. You have no chance of turning that around IF you can't get to that point. With every question, confrontation, snooping, tracking, phonecall, text you are pushing her further and further away. If you had dropped the rope the day after BD, you'd be that much closer to her changing her mind. The fact that she is still there is a huge sign. Many WWs and WAWs leave by time they get to the point of BDing. I believe that people DO what they truly BELIEVE what they want. People TALK about what they aren't sure about.

[Ready2Change]

You have to get to a place where she could tell you she went to a hotel, and gang-banged 100 guys, and it would roll off your back like water off a duck.

This is when she will feel safe telling you things.

Your job is to listen without judgement. Without offering advise. Your job is to understand HER story.

[curtis7]

Hi Curtis, you said you've read several stories here, so I guess you see how familiar they are to your own. Did you complete the book, Divorce Remedy?

It is difficult for a H to believe and/or accept that his W is wayward. He had much rather think she's having a MLC.

Sandi, I did complete DR in December, it’s time I look back at my notes and key points that I took away from the book.

I’m curious how you can distinguish between a W that is in MLC and a WW? I have pretty much convinced myself over the past few months that she is in a MLC and have been giving her the benefit of the doubt on many things because I felt she had no control over what she as going through.

Thanks so much for posting.

[curtis7]

Curtis, I know you are not done with your updates. However, I have noticed a pattern. You say "I am giving her space. I am letting her go to get her back. etc....." However, then you talk about snooping, confronting, asking questions and starting R talks.

You are pushing her out the door. You are cementing your fate of D.

Steve, you are spot on. I thought I was committed to giving her space on several occasions during the first few months. Then, I kept getting sucked back in to these slip ups like a vacuum. The OM caused such insecurity that I couldn’t resist the impulses at the time. I have such a deep connection with my W that I know when she lies to me as I’m sure most H do. Our intuition and hunger for the truth leads us to try and find answers. Unfortunately, as you soon read, I didn’t do better in February, it wasn’t until the beginning of March that I finally let her go and grasped the damage of my push behavior and importance of detaching.

[curtis7]

Hi Curtis, you said you've read several stories here, so I guess you see how familiar they are to your own. Did you complete the book, Divorce Remedy?

It is difficult for a H to believe and/or accept that his W is wayward. He had much rather think she's having a MLC.

I’m curious how you can distinguish between a W that is in MLC and a WW?

Sandi, I located the distinction in one of your posts:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

[curtis7]

On to February 2019...

My W and I were invited to our neighbor's 50th birthday celebration at a black tie event. She said she would just have to fake it. Her exact phrase on the way here was "Fake it 'til we make it." I thought we had a great time, dancing, drinking, and enjoying each other's company. I felt so alive and thrilled connecting with her in that way again; however, I'm certain she was faking it. She took some nice photos with me and our friends and seemed happy. My W was texting her divorced BFF regularly during the party and asked me what I have against her as she feels the woman is a great friend and person. I told her I thought the divorced friend is a negative influence on my W. I kept bringing my W drinks and upon leaving she was very intoxicated. On the drive home, she told me she had no love left for me and that she was sorry and that I needed to let her go. She cried curled up in a fetal position on the way home.

The next day she had one of the worst hangovers of her life and asked why I kept bringing her drinks. I replied that I thought we were having a great time and it seemed like she was having fun. She said she makes the best of any situation and refused having any fun with me.

Now, my W was starting to get really serious about finding another place to live. She was regularly meeting with her realtor to look at properties. She discussed the financial situation with me and whether I would go along with her using marital assets for her to buy a house. I agreed as I know how badly she feels the separation is needed. We talked about what would become of the property in the long run if things work out for us and we agreed that it would be a good rental property (our first rental real estate venture). I have handled almost all of the finances in our relationship and she knows how savvy I am in that area. So, she asked for my help in reviewing mortgage quotes so she would not make a poor financial decision. She was surprised at how well I was handling the her house search and commented that she wondered if I was going to sabotage it somehow. I told her I want to help because I feel this is going to be our investment at some point.

We talked about the possibilities of buying more rentals or rehabbing houses. She made a comment along the lines of too bad it wasn't a year ago, then said 4 years ago. One year ago or just under is when she started IC. 4 years ago, my W had a very dangerous infection and spent 9 days in the hospital getting pumped full of every antibiotic imaginable. This was a traumatic experience for her and even though I slept there every night, she felt I wasn't there for her when she needed me after waking up from anesthesia and not knowing where I was. The doctors never told me they were going to put her under. She also brought up some hair loss side effects that she was experiencing after withdrawing from the medication a few years ago and that I was not there to give her emotional support. I apologized for the past and told her I cannot change that. I told her I was a selfish person back then, but that is not who I am anymore.

My W had a ton on her plate, between the OM, divorced BFF, and house hunting, she was also trying to change employers. She went to several interviews trying to land a career with a higher salary. I wished her luck on each and offered her support in preparing for any of them. One of the interviews paid off as you'll find out in the March update.

Since my W was open to marriage counseling, I took the initiative to try and find one. I selected a woman from the AAMFT which I thought was going to be pro marriage. My W and I went to the initial couples session and mostly provided background history on how we got to our current sitch. The counselor recommended that we each come back for IC sessions to discuss our goals and we agreed. My IC session was not what I expected. I explained my goals of continuing to change myself, reconnecting with my W, and making our marriage better than ever. However, the IC kept asking me questions about how I would feel if that didn't work out and we were to divorce. I asked the IC if she had any constructive feedback or solutions that I could work on to help meet my goals. She kept coming back to the fact about how my W feels right now and the IC seemed committed and dead set that feelings of that nature cannot change. I told the IC that I understand how my W feels right now, but that doesn't mean I can't be the catalyst the cultivates change in our relationship which my W may come along with at some point in the future. I spoke with my W about her session, but she didn't share what her goals were. I just sensed they didn't align with mine, so I saw no value in continuing with that counselor or any therapy for that matter until my W wants to work on the marriage.

I continued doing nice things, acts of service for her, such as making breakfast, cleaning around the house and we seemed to be getting along really well. Then, around the middle of the month, my W accused me of talking to our son about us. Apparently, he told her "I don't care if you leave." I tried explaining to her that he and I pray together sometimes that she doesn't leave. She also criticized me for helping to book a flight for her dad to come for his annual visit while she was in Cancun. I asked her if she meant her wedding vows, she said not when I didn't honor mine to treat her right. I explained to her what a fulfilling life meant to me with her and I in a loving relationship and our family together, watching our kid's challenges and successes and continuing to grow and nurture what we have until old age. She said I put that eloquently. At that time, I told her I knew about the continued PA with the OM and she saw how much hurt that was causing me. She agreed that our life would be a lot easier if we could get through this, then she shed a tear saying if I wouldn't had been such a dumb*ss. She said her relationship with the OM is like an addiction. I think it is an obsession or limerence.

On Valentine's Day, my W sent me a text stating that she deleted everything associated with the OM from her phone. I replied "Thank you...I can't even begin to express what that means to me." A couple days later I asked her motivation for deleting the messages with the OM, she said "I might be a bad person, but I don't intentionally try to hurt people." She claimed this was going to be permanent. She said she was disrespected by him with his pickup artist games and that he was deeply damaged. Little did I know that was short lived as the OM continued to contact her and she could not resist. The next day the OM told my W that he got another girl pregnant, and my W offered him emotional support. She went to meet him for lunch and I told her the only way to end an A is to break off all contact permanently. She refused and wants to maintain the friendship. I pushed again moving her further into separation, she said that I made things worse and only time will tell if I can stop.

Her dad came to visit at the end of the month and we went out to a dinner show for my W's 38th birthday. She seemed to have fun and we engaged with each other during the show. She thanked me an enjoyable evening. She put an offer in on a house and it was accepted, closing scheduled for April 1st. She showed it to her dad and made him believe it was a rental property. Never told him she has intentions of living there. I had a great visit with her dad, we had never been very close or had much in common, but he noticed and commented on all of my personal changes and was impressed at the person I had become.

The end of the month was not my finest hour. I pressured her some more and asked about continued contact with the OM and secret texting apps. She accused me of controlling her again and said that she can't see the forest through the trees and that's why separation is the only thing that could possibly allow her to see the forest. The next day a notification icon popped onto her smartphone screen that was for the Plenty of Fish dating app. Later that night I asked her about it and she gaslighted me into thinking I was seeing things. A couple days later I found her sexting OM#2 (28 year old, 10 years younger than her) at night which resulted in a heated exchange. She said our marriage is over, it's only legal and doesn't mean anything. She thinks this is who she really is and said "I'm not the wholesome girl everyone thinks I am." I told her I know you're on a journey searching for something you want to feel, but don't lose yourself along the way, or your dignity, or your self respect. She said she knows what she's doing is immoral and unethical but I am the cause. She said my pressure pushes her more and more into wanting those interactions with other men.

I know there is no way she'll come back to me while the EAs/PAs are still going on. I told my W that I cannot continue watching what she is doing, glued to her phone constantly, and that I need some space too. I told her I planned to stay elsewhere for the next week or so to give her the emotional and physical space she has been requesting. This was the turning point I needed for myself to detach. She agreed to let me do that. Again, February was not my shining moment.

[AnotherStander]

Curtis, so far you've just really put a ton of pressure on your W and I mean a TON. Not sure how long ago you read DR but there's no DB'ing in your posts so far. I completely agree with Steve on this:

I have noticed a pattern. You say "I am giving her space. I am letting her go to get her back. etc....." However, then you talk about snooping, confronting, asking questions and starting R talks.

You are driving your W farther and farther away with all the pursuit and temp checks. Maybe there will be a shift when you do your last update but if not, there needs to be ASAP.

[SteveLW]

curtis, AS has a way of putting things succinctly and he is 100% right. That is a ton of pressure. The LBS that do the most damage to their sitches are those that think they have to constantly be doing something to make things better. I see no GAL, or detachment in the updates so far. And even some of your 180s are harmful. Attraction comes from respect, and wives do not respect subservient men. Look who she is drawn to: a 28 yearold pickup artist that has done nothing for her except tell her what she wants to hear.

Looking forward to March! And to see you start turning yourself around.

Also, one last thing. Your WW is classic WW. I often say on here that women do not need their own place to live to find themselves, or figure themselves out or to work on the marriage. They need their own place to sleep with other men. Dating apps. Sexting. That was part and parcel of what my WW did. She never got to a full blown PA but she was well on her way. And the only thing that stopped her was my GAL, and detaching. Two things you haven't been able to do.

[curtis7]

On to March 2019 and current updates...

So, starting the last couple days of February through the first week and a half of March, I began spending my nights nearby at a family member's home while they were vacationing in the Caribbean. The routine consisted of my W dropping the kids at school in the morning, me picking them up and taking them home. Sometimes preparing dinner with them if she was not back from work and other times leaving shortly after she got back. Communication was primarily limited to the children. I did not reach out to her via text, phone, or otherwise unless she contacted me first.

Now, I coach youth sports that my son plays which is part of my GAL. Flag football season finished up last month and we were rolling right into baseball season. So, I take my son to games and practices about 3 times a week. My boy is a phenomenal athlete and he and I share a natural connection due to our love of sports. My daughter is there occasionally as well until my W can pick her up after work. The coaching helps me remain social with parents of the other kids and gives me a sense of purpose in life to lead these young men and teach them good sportsmanship and teamwork.

Opening day was the first weekend in March after I brought my son home, my W asked me to stay to review details on a fairly lucrative job offer she received and a comparison on what we may do about health insurance for the family. We went through that and had a positive and productive discussion.

I also play indoor volleyball once or twice a week with a regular group nearby. My W really loves volleyball and was one of the primary reasons I started participating, but doesn't have much interest in going anymore with all of her other interests right now. I enjoy the competition and exercise while being able to interact with a mostly positive group of people. I usually take my kids with me to play with kids of other families. On one such occasion, we didn't get home until almost 10pm and my W told me that was controlling since I didn't communicate what time I would be dropping off the kids, it forced her to sit around at home all night. I responded with validation, but I think she is just looking for opportunities for me to enable more of her wayward interactions.

Staying with the kids for 10 nights in a row with less assistance from me seemed to take a toll on my W. According to my son, they were getting dropped off at school barely in time as typically my role is to dropoff. Two times, my W turned the wrong way out of the community heading towards her work rather than school. I think she is juggling so much that the fog, lack of sleep from smartphone addiction, OM contact, divorced BFF issues, separation home, new job offer, and stress of the children is catching up with her. As such, she seemed to look for more opportunities to get into arguments with me. I remained calm, validated when I could, and did not participate in these attacks.

Compounding the situation was the ex of the divorced BFF got married last Monday morning to a woman he met in November and only 3 months to the day after his D was finalized. The BFF was traumatized and of course my W was the support system as the BFF stayed over at our house 3 nights in a row. Fortunately for me, I stayed elsewhere. However, the toxic negative influence was in prime sight for my W to continue the vilification of me.

My W actually unknowingly did me a favor last week by changing cell phone providers. She removed herself from our joint account and opened her own with a new carrier. Now, I have no way to check her phone and text records. This is very healthy for me as it completely removes that temptation.

This time away in the evenings did wonders for my psyche as I didn't have to watch her dive deeper into the abyss of the smartphone fantasy world. I am feeling a new sense of freedom of not getting so personally and emotionally attached to her words and actions. I remain optimistic and am not allowing the current state of the M and A's to consume me.

I was planning to stay away until last Sunday, but my W wanted to go out on Saturday night with her divorced BFF and meetup with OM#2. She kept texting me asking what time I could come over to "babysit". That was probably enabling behavior to agree to spend the night at our house with the kids, but at this point, I didn't really care what she was going to do, because I have finally come to the realization that I cannot control her, only myself. My W spent the night at her BFF's apartment and I took my kids to church the next morning.

Now that we are back sleeping under the same roof. This past week's highlights were a possible promotion for my W at her current job. She is strongly debating whether to stay with her employer of almost 15 years with great benefits or jump to the higher paying job that is a longer commute and less flexible on hours. I listened to her, reviewed a comparison of all compensation she put together, and gave her some insight on things to consider. In no way did I try to sway her one direction or the other. I am not trying to control or influence her choice at all.

My wife texted the next day asking if I could attend the closing on her separation home. I asked if I would have to sign anything and she said yes, but couldn't tell me what. I told her I need more information before I'm comfortable signing. She said this is my opportunity to throw a wrench in her plan to separate. I did not respond. However, my thought was this could be an opening for me to negotiate something I want for the relationship in the future. Namely, asking her to agree to attend a marriage intensive with me at some point in the future. Not sure what others think of this and I really don't know the appropriate time to attend such an event. Would it be better to go sooner than later. I think not until the multiple A's have fizzled out and perhaps several months after she has felt physical and emotional space in her separation home. Nevertheless, she hasn't brought it up again, but she will before the closing on April 1st. In the meantime, she has rented a storage unit and began buying furniture for her impending move.

Also, over the past week, my son had 3 baseball games which my W attended. She spent 90% of the time staring and pecking at her phone, only to look up when my son was up to bat. She didn't sit very close to the other baseball mom's that usually took and interact throughout the game without fantasy distractions. There are so many positive influences near us that could be a boon for supporting marriage, but my W wants no part in engaging with them. Instead she chooses the toxic divorced BFF and a female co-worker of mine that is on the verge of divorce as her two primary points of contact for support and venting. I guess it justifies her current actions as WW to only interact with those that don't contradict her current views, decisions, and actions.

On Wednesday we were supposed to have our follow-up marriage counseling session, but I had already canceled it last week. My W asked the time of the appointment and seemed surprised and possibly mildly upset that I canceled it. I told her that we never talked about our individual goals, so I didn't feel it was an appropriate time to continue the therapy as we are not currently moving in the same direction. She said she wanted to keep the sessions going to work on our communication with each and the kids. I think she liked the sessions because the counselor is pro divorce and she is hoping that I will go along with that and eventually change my mind. I said to my W "I understand how you feel, and I accept the fact that you feel that way, and I hope someday you will feel that way about me again" and left it at that.

This wraps up a fairly detailed history on where I currently stand. I know I have applied so much pressure to my W, that it will take a monumental effort and amount of time to work through this. I do reflect back on how things could have been different today had I not pushed, pried, spied, tried to convince, etc. from the start. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know. On to daily updates...