Grey Havens

[Dawn70]

Great update! Sounds like great fun with the kiddos altogether and some good solo time with each as well. You all will NOT regret the Paul McCartney choice. I am not even really a Paul McCartney or Beatles fan, but I got to see him a couple of years ago when he was in AR and OMG...........by far best concert ever. The man is in his 70s and performs like a man in his 20s...it was AMAZING!

[JujuB]

I would love validation like that Zues! But like you said, I am sure it is not the real, truly remorseful type of validation that comes after soul searching. More of the, life is not not great right now and my ex husband is looking good in comparison to what I am feeling and going through right now. What exactly did she say? (If your willing to share)

I think that makes a lot of sense with your son and I am so glad about how well your relationships are going with each of them. I think divorced parents do have to contend with different issues when parenting that a unified parent front does not have to. It’s more challenging, but maybe in the long run we have different relationships with them? We kind of have to conform and alter our initial parenting ideas and ideals.

Glad you posted.

[Zues126]

Coconut- I've been less than certain about boundaries with my ex road partner. We kept our distance for about three months, from October until January. Then I saw him at a pool tournament. At first he didn't really talk to me, but that was just because we didn't know what was appropriate. Then, finally, we sat next to each other and caught up a bit. It's difficult for me because I've known him for over 10 years since he was a teenager and we have spent a lot of time together and know each other well. We kept things light, joked around a bit, and that was all.

Then my other road partner that I travel to bigger tournaments with pulled the plug on pool and said he was done playing. He's still my best friend, but he just can't do it. Too hard for him to play, because when he competes he wants to play his best so bad that it makes him want to quit his job, divorce his wife, and just lock himself in a room with a pool table until he can beat everyone in the world. Since he can't do that he feels like he's always just a shell of what his true potential is, and it's too hard for him to play mediocre, lose, and then have to go home and go back to work when he just wants to practice. He admits he can't handle the balance and of course he's not choosing pool over family.

So that leaves me with no road partner at all. I decided that instead of trying to find one person that wants to go to a series of tournaments with me, I'd just go on my own or have someone ride with me a la cart. If I'm playing a tournament I'll just invite a few people to see if anyone wants to ride with me and split the hotel, but I won't have a partner. The two reasons for this are 1) no one else can keep up with the tournament schedule I want to play and I don't want to have anyone pull me down, and 2) everyone else has things that make me draw some boundaries such as an active affair, or in the case of others drug use, alcoholism, etc. Just no one I want to be all that close to.

But then I thought about it and realized that maybe I can relax my boundaries a bit if I'm just riding to one tournament together. For example, the guy that does a lot of drugs (steroids, beta blockers, adderal and other prescription speeds, etc). I might not want to partner up with him, but if he wants to practice with me prior to a tournament I'm ok with that, or maybe even going to a tournament together. I've known him a long time, I'm not worried he's going to suck me into that world. And so I made the same decision with the guy in the affair. We can't put the band back together, but I'm not going to cut him completely out of my life. We can talk when we see each other, and I decided to even go to a single tournament with him. I am trying to find a balance of surrounding myself with good people and making sure I don't endorse destructive behavior, along with being quietly in the background of my friends that are going through difficult times, even when they're self inflicted. Maybe I can be a good influence on them to a degree, and maybe our friendship can be there, dormant, until the situations change a bit.

For that reason I did go to a tournament with this guy in February. We had a good time and kept things light. On the way back he brought up relationships. I wasn't going to bring it up, but once he did we talked about it for 3-4 hours. I'm not going to change his behavior, but at least by remaining connected to some small extent I can voice my opinions, whereas if I wrote him off entirely he wouldn't hear my voice at all. Again, we don't have any other tournaments we're planning to travel to together, but I think we can stay in touch once in a while and I'm not ruling out the possibility of going to another with him this year.

All in all, tricky balances, I'm not sure what's right, so I'm trying to be there for a friend and be a good example, while protecting myself from his destruction and not enabling his choices. I'm not sure I'm doing so well, but I'm still sorting through it. Really tricky to know.

Juju- here are some excerpts from XW's texts:

-Sad I can't be with u due to circling on calendar of Oct 10 (divorce date). I will never forgive myself for breaking the cardinal sin. Sorry. Not where this was supposed to go. I'll never forgive myself. I'm sorry and ty for taking care of kids when they aren't here. One day I hope to be worthy of supporting them. And dammit for no facial hair before that I like, wish u asked what I wanted...bet if I told you now as a single guy you wouldn't judge me so harshly. I met a Catholic lady tonight I drove home from bar. It's just hard.
-Can we do mediation when the maintenance is up? I love you and don't want to fight.
-I'm just so broken about us...My bad

There were a few other things, like her using my name more often, and her overall tone seemed much friendlier. This was in January and has tapered off.

We're on the same page. It was a non-event, only made the update as an afterthought because you have all been through this ride with me. I have no doubt she's messaging half a dozen different guys flirty messages in between expressions of regret. Or maybe not. Who knows? I hope she can keep her stuff together for her sake and for my kids' sake, but it's no longer my concern and I feel that way in my heart, not just my head.

On a different note, I booked tickets for my family to go to a play performing Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory at a nice theater on Sunday. It was pricy but I have never taken them to a musical and this will be fun. Let's begin with a spin travelling to a world of my creation, what we see will defy explanation! (I'm a pure imagination groupie )

[Twofeet]

Zues,

It's a good thing you are in the state of meh with XW. I mean what do you do with those texts? I am reading them thinking wow Mrs. X-Zues you seem a bit out of sorts. I remember reading your story when I first landed here. Wasn't you D adversarial? What keeps you in meh and not angry?

[Zues126]

Hi Twofeet. The only thing I said in text was "As for our past, I know we both have regrets. Anything that pushes us to be better today is great, no time for anything that weighs us down. We've both worked hard to take care of the children and keep things calm and stable for them. I'm glad we could provide that for them and they know their parents love them enough to put them first in all things."

She had bombed me with a lot of questions about schedules and other things, I just worked this into the reply. Probably the most I've said to her since BD.

I had to do a lot to get to meh. All of the questions you can't seem to let go of bounced around my head. How could she do this? Why is the world like this? Where did I go wrong? And on and on and on. It was like a scab I couldn't leave alone. The pain was so strong I couldn't help but ruminate and spin.

I think for me to move past this required two things. First, I had to beat those questions to death. I wrote about them endlessly on this forum. I read books and other people's situations. I talked with friends. I reflected. And so forth. At some point your brain loses interest. Like when you play a ring puzzle game, where you have to get the metal ring off the other metal contraption. You play with it for a while, then at some point you realize you're stuck and are out of things to try, and you just lose interest. You put it down and move on.

But secondly, and maybe more importantly, you have to move forward with your life until you are no longer in pain. As long as I was suffering because of her choices it was hard to let this stuff go. So while I was financially destitute and felt hopeless about my ability to provide to my children while paying the amounts of support the courts had ordered it was very hard. And while I was only seeing my kids one night a week and every other weekend it was even harder. While we were in the middle of the divorce negotiations and I constantly had to be on guard and spend hours planning my next move like some life and death chess game. Etc. While this was going on it was hard to be totally at peace. But eventually I got through it. The divorce was settled. I got 50% parental time. My finances stabilized. And I fell into a nice rhythm with my new life. I got to the point that my life was good again. And from that spot, it is much easier to let go of the past than when you're still suffering because of it.

This is why I believe GAL is so important. It's like we all have a certain amount of needs that need to be met as a human. When we were married many of them were satisfied by our spouse. Emotional needs, physical needs, help with life's daily battles, and so on. After BD there are not only real losses to grieve, but you are suffering from not getting your needs met. GAL allows you to meet new people, find new activities, build a new routine. It's not about rebounding, heavens no, absolutely not. But it's about finding a new way to live where you get what you need from life somewhere else.

I think both worked together. I worked hard to move forward, and once the pain of the divorce and it's immediately consequences had passed things got easier. This and I had beat those questions to death enough that I could let it go once I was no longer in pain.

Now I look at her more like a shelter dog that I took in that bit me and I had to get rid of it. I wouldn't be mad at the dog. But I wouldn't want to bring it back into my house. If it came by my house once in a while and started barking at me I'd feel a bit sad that this creature was suffering, but I wouldn't take it personal. The dog obviously had issues that extended beyond me and it's too bad.

Hope this helps and sorry you're dealing with this crap. I may have moved on, it may not keep me up at nights anymore, but I'll be the first one to agree that everything about it stinks to the core. Hang in!

[JujuB]

The ring game analogy is perfect. I guess it gets to the point, you just get sick of it and put it down. Some people try to solve it a bit longer then others do, some people just realize it’s unsolveable early on. I think you handled her temperature checking quite well. And I’m hoping that since this tapered off in January it means she’s in a better place and not succumbing to her old vices. I would still like some validation..but I haven’t quite put my toy down yet. Although oddly enough, since the break up I am thinking of ex less and less.

I don’t let friends actions dictate whether i hang our with them. I find it interesting that you do. Of course, I voice my opinion. Offer them my version and experience. listen and write off their version. But I still hang out with them. I think cheating and affairs are very wrong. They are not people I would set up with anyone. But I still can have fun with them. I don’t feel attached to them that way I guess. I also did not boycott a certain crafts store when I needed to put together an emergency costume for my son last minute though. Or maybe because they didn’t hurt me personally, I’m not as angered. Which makes no sense because I get so mad at the walkaways on here, yet I don’t disengage with a friend that did the same to his partner.

Hope you guys enjoy the play. My son and I loved that book (but not as much as the Witches - that’s our favorite by raol Dahl. It’s laugh out loud funny)

[Zues126]

Thanks for the reply Juju.

Most people these days go with the flow and don't worry much about their friends' behavior. Sometimes it's attempting not to judge so they in turn aren't judged. Other times it's because the rule book is so blurry these days it's out of fashion to expect people to follow any rules. I get this completely.

I really looked for guidance on this one. There were a few reasons I decided to create some distance. For one thing, I ask myself "What would happen if everyone acted as I did?" If everyone sent a strong message of distancing themselves to someone doing something wrong, maybe that person wouldn't behave that way. It's a form of love to help someone on a destructive path understand where they have crossed the line. It involves a sacrifice and pain, hoping to help everyone avoid greater pain. It's like there are two things that run our culture - literal laws and social rules. We still enforce laws, but as we as a society stop enforcing social rules we will see a big shift in behavior. For example, if cheating apps and affairs become popularized by people like that Esther woman the reluctance to be outed as a cheater may wane. With one of the biggest deterrents gone more and more people will cheat. And so on. I'm just one person, but I have to cast my vote.

Another thing is we become like our friends. I've thought a lot about why that is. One thing I've come to realize more and more is that being human is potential. When we are young we are told (hopefully) how much potential for greatness we have. We could be president, or an astronaut, or whatever we want. But what we aren't told is that we could also become criminals, drug addicts, morbidly obese, morally bankrupt scum buckets.

There is a quote "People don't rise to the level of their dreams; they sink to the level of their preparation". I heard it originally as a motivational quote that I used to fire myself up to practice pool. But it seemed to be along the same lines. What makes us think we'll soar to our hopes and dreams? Why do we think we won't fall to the depths of despair? Optimism? Sure, maybe. But as I thought about it, I played with the idea of "worst case allowable will become your reality".

What I mean is this. We all have a breaking point in many areas, something gets so bad we can't accept it getting worse. Here are some examples. Weight. Some people get 10lbs heavier than they were and they can't allow it to go any further, they hit the gym. Others might budge 30-40 lbs. And some people might allow themselves to get all the way to 500lbs and just give up. Another example is cleanliness. Some people can't stand a single dirty dish on the counter. Others don't mind a small mess. Then you have hoarders and people with clothes sprawled over their furniture and pizza boxes on the floor. Finally you have people with insect and rodent infestations. The same distributions could be found with personal hygiene, financial stability, career performance, quality of family relationships, and so many other areas.

So what determines what type of life you live? How successful at work you are? How financially stable you are? What types of family relationships you maintain? How clean your house is? How healthy you are? In my theory, the answer is whatever the minimal conditions you are willing to accept will become your reality. This sounds negative, but it kind of makes sense. I mean, who comes home from work and feels like doing dishes? Or working out? Or eating a salad? Or flossing their teeth? A lot of life comes down to a battle between our dislike of doing what we don't want to do, versus a distaste for the consequences of neglect. So by definition we will do as much as we need to in order to avoid the consequences we can't tolerate, and what we can tolerate we will to avoid having to do things we don't enjoy.

Now, this doesn't apply to things we enjoy. If you really enjoy working out, for example, that is the exception. Things you are passionate about and are energy creating don't count in this model. Also, the importance of habits becomes highlighted. Basically the idea is once you make a habit out of something it takes almost no additional effort to maintain a standard at a higher quality of living than a lower one, because you do those activities without much energy or will exerted, and because it doesn't take much more fuel to fly at 20,000 feet than 5,000.

Ok, this is just a brainstorm of mine. But then I asked, what determines what individuals are willing to live with? If people's minimal standards will become their reality then setting standards is pretty darn important. What is it that influences someone's standards? Parents. Friends. TV. Social media. We look at what's around us and take it in.

And all of this long rant comes full circle. When people say "You become like your friends" it now makes sense why. It's because you gradually come to think of them as 'normal' up to and including their standards.

Life is already hard enough for me, I don't need to surround myself with people that have standards that I don't want to adapt. It's like if I was an alcoholic, I wouldn't want to hang out with my old drinking buddies at a bar. I'm not condemning anyone who drinks, I just can't be a part of it.

In the end I try to walk the balance of being strategic about who I get close to in my life while still getting along with all of the people that life dictates I will be in contact with. To those I admire, I hope to be close and aspire to the qualities I admire most. To those who are behaving in destructive ways, I prefer a little bit of a safe distance, from where they can't pull me down but from where hopefully I can inspire them. And maybe if some part of them craves personal growth they might lift themselves up in some ways to be closer to me the way I try to life myself up to be closer to those I admire.

It's not black and white of course. We're all flawed and we're all striving. I get it. And I am not saying this is how it is or should be. These are simply thoughts I've had as I've tried to better understand why I have felt the need to pull back from this friend a bit.

[Coconut]

Zeus,

I appreciate the response. The reason I asked was because I was in a similar situation with a guy I worked with. As far as work peers were concerned, I got along with him the best and he was someone I wanted to hang out with outside of work. Then I found out that he had no qualms about cheating, he would talk about an out of town Lady who he referred to as his girlfriend, would say that he was close to proposing and thought she was the one, then 5 minutes later started talking about another girl he was going out with that weekend and how good she was in bed and was gonna have a good weekend. Anyway, I told him how I felt about that; I still talked to him occasionally (but less often, more superficial) at work but no longer would have hung out with him outside of work. I too believe that befriending a person with that type of character, ignoring their traits that we don't agree with, basically is giving your approval of their behavior. Which ultimately can make that type of behavior the norm in your life.

[Btrow]

Zues, thanks for sharing the messages from XW. They are certainly interesting. I wonder how it would have played out if you still had feelings for her.

May I ask how you have acted towards her over the years? Mean, angry, friendly, light headed? I read one of your older posts where you mentioned that you were very angry. That combined with what you wrote about a couple of posts back where you mentioned the latter exchanges have been the most since BD.

Coconut: I had a (male) co-worker, we "clicked" on many levels and he had the potential to become a very good friend. He is an amazing guy but he has one major flaw. Women. He has been married 15 years, has two teens. He had an affair 2 years ago. His W forgave him. He is still very flirty with the ladies. And I have no doubt that he will cheat again if the opportunity arose. I told him straight up "you're a great guy but we cannot be friends. I have no room for cheaters". He tried to deny ever having had an affair and was deeply hurt. I think the message got through. Will he change his ways? Probably not. But it was important to me and that is all that matters. BTW thanks to Zues for giving me the strenght to say that. It was your story with your pool buddy that inspired me.

[Twofeet]

Just to chip in my 2 cents... you are who you surround yourself with. If you allow yourself to get close to and befriend low caliber people you then may find yourself giving in to their low values and morals. Be a high value person and find like people to be apart of your circle.