I thought about calling this thread "4 years pieced and running out of things to post" but decided that doesn't sound nice. I feel as if I should be inspiring more hope. So I am going to think of an update with a more optimistic tone and put that below.
I still read along here and follow several of you, but I run out of things to say that are as pro-M as should be reflected on a divorce busting site ...
I don't have much to share at the moment, because things are rather status quo. My focus has been more on whats going on with my kids and work. I have been working a lot of OT in the last 4-5 months. I will share a story that now has meaning for me.
So a couple weeks ago I went out for a ladies night with my BF and her other friend. I don't know this lady but I know of her because my BF has told me a lot about her and apparently she knows everything about me. Let's call her Z. And I mean everything about me. My BF has always been supportive of me and my M. Despite having to hold my head above water during a difficult separation, she still sees my H as a good guy and father. She is the one that tells me that he is a good man and that because I have decided to stay with him that I should make more of an effort to create a better and closer connection. She sees that I can keep him at arms length.
Well, her buddy Z (after a couple drinks) apparently doesn't share this sentiment. And let me just say that at no point in the conversation did I ever ask this woman what her opinion is of my M or my H. She told me anyway. She has never been married, doesn't have kids, and hasn't even been in a long term R. She also dates guys half her age (hopefully not her students). I share all of this about her because not only does she not know me personally, but she hasn't a clue what my life is like. She lives with her mom.
So she quickly did learn something about me that evening, and that is that I am no gentle flower. If you are bold enough to openly pass judgement on me to my face, you are going to be met with a very uncomfortable confrontation. I guess she didn't expect that because she had trouble holding her position, answering my questions and even excused herself to the bathroom at one point. I told her, "come on now, you obviously think my H is a POS, so I am curious to know what it is that YOU think I should do differently with my life." She really just squirmed, as did my BF. Will I change my life decisions based on what this woman says about me? Of course not. But if you are going to talk chit to my face, you better back that up. It was a fun night.
So I am done with her (not that I ever cared to get started). In fact, I have not talked to my BF in almost 3 weeks. I am not angry, but I just need some space. Z only knows anything because of what she told her. I have been friends with my BF since childhood and I am sure this will get talked about, but right now I just don't feel like being around her. The nature of our friendship is that we talk a lot about our lives and intimate personal details. I don't believe that should be shared with our other friends/families.
So what have I learned from this? I can't make choices about my M based on what others think. I really can't. And I still have some shame to let go of. While that is easy to say, it's not as easy to do. We all care what people think. I mean, I only post light and flowery pics on SM, not heavy or personal posts. So yes, I care. But when it comes to day to day choices, or important life decisions, those can only be mine. I might have a BF that is so "pro- my M," or she may have a friend that is a judgmental b-tch, but they have never walked in my shoes. I really cannot let EITHER of them control me.
Mostly, I felt (and still feel protective) of my family -- and that includes my H -- in that moment. He is my family. I get to be mad at him and call him a POS, not her. Who is she? She is actually no one. She and my fears of people like her, and all the fears she has represented (when she went on her "I am a feminist" rant, which I don't believe one word of) do NOT get to control me anymore.
I am still letting go of fear.
Blu
Last edited by BluWave; 03/22/1909:48 PM.
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Hi Blu. Yes, it's crazy how the last people on earth we would ever ask for an opinion are the first with the worst advice ever.
Sadly, my H called an ex-Aunt (his uncles xw) to get her counsel. I don't know what all she told my H, but whatever it was, he sure thought she was wise and decided that she knew stuff about stuff.
I argued (early after the BD) about how she has been D for 25+ years and never remarried, so she would be the last person I'd get M advice from, but I wish I would have handled it better. For myself, there have certainly been opinions about what I 'should' do and a lot of "if my H did that..."...we never know until we are here.
I hope you are able to remember that fear is a liar. You are not alone in that battle. Stay strong and I don't know you but as a fellow DBer I am proud as heck about you standing up for your M. Encouraging.
ME47 XH44, S28 S24 S19
8/17-BD IHS: 1/17-2/19 D FILED (ME): 7/19 D FINAL: 10/20 M23 T25 OW CONFIRMED: 01/21
Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
So what have I learned from this? I can't make choices about my M based on what others think. I really can't. And I still have some shame to let go of. While that is easy to say, it's not as easy to do.
I agree with this so much, because the shame is present at every step of the way. I'm considering what shame means for me as my W moves towards D. I sometimes wonder if part of the reason we want our spouses back *so* much is to avoid the shame of having failed. And maybe that's why those that start piecing find it so difficult - there is another layer to work through. And then you must determine if you want the M because you want your significant other, or because you want things to be "right" in your world again. I imagine it to be quite conflicting.
I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm speaking only from what I've read in various folks' threads - not yours in particular.
hi Blu, I saw your posts about H's and affairs on another thread, didn't want to bomb so am replying to you here. I totally agree with everything you said and I do think it is really helpful advice. I, too, didn't understand how H was having an affair--but he was-- so I'd like to add some things to what you said. He said he needed "space" and moved out. Huge red flag- he needed space to pursue the affair and put me as plan B. He got a new phone plan and number, eventually. He was texting some strange numbers that I saw but it stopped cold. And he didn't get a new phone for several months so I thought he stopped texting with what turned out to be the OW. Guess what, they skyped and messaged via skype, how clever they were. H was very needy with me, needed to talk to me all the time, then suddenly was... alone in apt? Well no, he was skyping her all the time! Turns out, she lived quite far away so they didn't see each other too often. All the disappearances added up, when he'd not be in contact for four or five days, then we'd meet.. well, he was going to see her or she was going to see him. The rest of the time he was "alone and depressed" in his apartment. This was all when we were separated. Like you said, there were signs, I could just tell there was someone else, I just didn't see how or who it could be. I was the plan B. Like you, probably would have done things differently had I known that would be the case for a really long time. Too long. Finally, he filed, because he and OW had decided to try to be together. After he filed and we finalized everything, I didn't hear from him. I didn't know they'd moved in together and were together for something like 2 years before it collapsed. I was pretty surprised to find all of this out recently, but it all adds up. Pretty painful to learn but I suppose a good thing.
Hope, Thank you for replying! I agree. I think that sometimes those that shove their opninons down other poeple's throats can often be the ones with the biggest internal struggles. I am sorry to read about your H. One thing I had to learn in my sitch is that as much as I wanted to blame others -- mostly the OW, as I believe she steered him away -- the reality is that only he is responsible for his own actions. On the flip side, my former MIL (H's mom) was very supportive of me and also vocal to him that he was making a mistake. She had her own anger towards him, which caused him more shame. She would really hand it to him and that hurt him and forced him out of his fog.
Yail, You are correct! There is this great book by Brene Brown about shame. It very much can influence us. And I think what you say makes a lot of sense. When our ego is so damaged, we cling to our S, and it can be hard to know how much we want them (and the M back) verses how much we our clinging out of fear of the unknown. My H has been back in our M for 4 years, so we have talked about almost everyhting. One thing he said early on is that he was afraid to come back because he didn't believe that I really wanted him. He felt he ruined things. He thought I just wanted to "win" him back and that how could I want a man that could do such a terrible thing (have an A and leave our home). He was not entirely wrong and it IS something that I have struggled with.
My H also had his own shame and ego to protect. Even when he was gone and we would have the occasional R talks, his words did not usually match his actions. He would tell me he was done and wanted D, but I could see/feel his ambilvalnce and sadness. He told me after returning that he was always afraid that he had made the wrong decsions, and that his guilt overwhelmed his thinking, but he also thought he was stuck and wouldn't be able to repair the damage if he did come back. So he not only had fear of what he had done, but he also had a fear to admit that he had made a huge mistake and then go back on it. He felt stuck no matter what he did.
Waves, I appreciate your input! As I said in my post to her, I have been reading here for almost 5 years, even tho I don't post myself much. I have read the stories of 100s and 100s of posters. And nobody wants to ever beleive that there is any type of A or that their S is capable of that. And why would we want to? It so,so painful to think about! Even 4 years later I can say that the most hurtful part of my siutaion was the infidleity and thoughts of him with OW. It still seems unreal sometimes. He is the most loving and loyal man.
I really do not like to gender stereotype, but most of the posters here are heterosexual couples in Ms, and there are some distinct differences in the posters of the Hs verses the Ws. The Hs that come here are usually in one of two positions: they have a WAW or a WW. Often the WAW has been telling them of their unhappiness, until they give up and then eventually walkaway. Somtimes it is coupled with an A and somestimes not. It seems that these Ws are the least likely to return to the M. Then there are the waywards -- WWs and the WHs. They are often more running towards an A then they are away from their spouse. They are in limerance and are fantastic liars, and so good that they often convince us that it is our fault or that there is some other reason they need space -- time, work, depresion,MLC, etc, etc. I can't speak much to the MLC because I struggle with understanding what it means or the reality of it. It is not in the DSM. I don't even like using the term because then I see people use it as an excuse.
From my perspective, we should all follow the rules the same. So categorizing someone may not behoove us anyways. The thing about a wayward H tho, is that they can often be "won" back. I hate to even say that, because the philpsopy of DB is that we let them go with a goal of working on ourselves, and not winning them. They are no prize really and the have a lot of their own work/changes to make. In fact, we shouldn't even take them back until they have demonstrated change and remorse IMO.
Here is the thing I want people to know: If your H is having an A, he will not come back as long as he knows he can have you (and you are plan B). He has to know he has lost you, that you are strong on your own, and that you are moving on and will be just fine without him. I can garuntee that if I had understood this (through my devastation) and followed the rules here, from DAY 1, my H would not have left for OW. Of course that feels impossible. You cannot nice them back, show them what they are missing, and hope that they will work on the R, as long as the OW is still in the picture at all. I stand behind my beliefs no matter how hard posters try and convince me otherwise! My H would tell you the same thing and he lived it.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
My H also had his own shame and ego to protect. Even when he was gone and we would have the occasional R talks, his words did not usually match his actions. He would tell me he was done and wanted D, but I could see/feel his ambilvalnce and sadness. He told me after returning that he was always afraid that he had made the wrong decsions, and that his guilt overwhelmed his thinking, but he also thought he was stuck and wouldn't be able to repair the damage if he did come back. So he not only had fear of what he had done, but he also had a fear to admit that he had made a huge mistake and then go back on it. He felt stuck no matter what he did.
Blu
I have been told the same thing. XH didn't think I'd ever be able to forgive him if I found out, but didn't think it would work out with OW either. He was on the fence for a very long time. And I was Plan B. I'm struggling with all of this now because he reached out after years and came clean. It has triggered so many feelings (duh) I just don't know how to process this all. I'm stuck on thinking over that limbo period where we were separated and still married and if I would have done anything differently. I should probably go back to therapy, and i will check out the book you suggested. I did get the "im sorry i made the biggest mistake of my life and if i could go back in time i'd never have an A." How much guilt and shame he felt. Now, i just don't know what to DO, how to process, how to think. I mean, it was never really over, basically i saw him less and less and he told me he filed and was gone. I never knew until now that they were living together when he got the finalized paper and he told her he needed to be alone and cried all day. Just... heavy stuff.
Here is the thing I want people to know: If your H is having an A, he will not come back as long as he knows he can have you (and you are plan B). He has to know he has lost you, that you are strong on your own, and that you are moving on and will be just fine without him. I can garuntee that if I had understood this (through my devastation) and followed the rules here, from DAY 1, my H would not have left for OW. Of course that feels impossible. You cannot nice them back, show them what they are missing, and hope that they will work on the R, as long as the OW is still in the picture at all. I stand behind my beliefs no matter how hard posters try and convince me otherwise! My H would tell you the same thing and he lived it.
I find this interesting. I understand that I need to not be ok as Plan B. I have already proved to myself and others, and I'm sure him, that I am strong enough on my own, that I will be just fine without him, and that I am ok with moving on. However, he hasn't lost me. I feel like if he truly lost me, I wouldn't be wanting the M back at all. He left me before having our baby, so I have been on my own since day one with him, I am certainly strong enough to do this and be on our own. One thing I am trying to fully grasp: If I haven't filed for divorce, we haven't had one single conversation about it, doesn't that show him that I'm not fully moved on, that I would be willing to take him back. This does not mean that I want/am ready to file, just find that kind of contradictory in my book.
Married- 1y8m Together- 7.5y M- 37 H- 31 S- 4 months not wanting to work on things bomb- 4/15/18 left home- 5/5/18 Moved in with OW a week after leaving
Oh, lot's of typos in my last post -- sorry, was at work and didn't have time to spell check.
Waves, Wow, I am so sorry. That is terribly sad to read. I can also relate to so much of what you say, as my H said the exact same lines! He never saw himself in a long term R with her, he second guessed himself often, and he was afraid I would never forgive him. The main difference was that I found out about them after an extended EA and then I flipped my lid and kicked him out. So our interactions during that year we were separated we both knew that I knew about OW. I would really like to read your thread. I am going to do that and put some comments there.
othstr, So he left before the baby was born while you were pregnant? That is just terrible. I cannot imagine what you went through. I am going to find your thread and read it too. I'll put some comments there. .... I think I understand what you are saying -- if they think they have completely lost you then that is contradictory to still wanting them back or being willing to take them back. It is a very, very fine line. It is also difficult to execute because we are human and our emotions often can interfere with how we would ideally like to communicate verses how we come across.
I think it also depends on what the D itself means to people. For me, the actual D is not necessarily the breakage of the union, but more the legal paperwork. IMO he already ended the M by having an A and then actually leaving and not trying to make it work. When my H was gone, I did my homework and I consulted an L. I soon learned that it would not make financial sense for me to file or even go through with a D. So even had my H not returned, and even if we were to separate today, I would not likely go through with a D. I would most likely lose my home, my community and my kids schools. I am not willing to do that. I would live separately form him and try my best to keep the kids in our house ... Others may not be in that situation and they may see that the D is the very end of the end of the M!
Another thing to note, is that not all WHs do return, and in fact most do not. Sadly, I think for some it's just too late, or for some their pride (or shame) prevents them from ever trying to return... Of the ones that do return, there seems to be a pattern of the LBS finally letting go, detaching, and starting to move on. She sends the message that she doesn't need him to be okay in life. He starts to feel that loss as she removes herself from plan B. She is simultaneously "paving the way home," in that he is no longer afraid of her hurt/anger - meaning she is approachable. And yes, it IS contradictory, which is another reason it is so hard. It is also hard to keep your emotional process private from a person that is no longer safe, but also send the message that you would possibly, maybe still be open to reconciliation. This also has to be done more with actions than words. So yes, it feels contradictory and it feels impossible. It took me about 6-9 months to put this into practice. When I finally "got it," my H did a very fast turn around.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
She is simultaneously "paving the way home," in that he is no longer afraid of her hurt/anger - meaning she is approachable.
I've never thought about "paving the way" in this way before! So often people see paving the way as being kind, or helpful, or other "lighthouse" activities. I've never seen someone use LEAVING as the paving the way. You're absolutely right that it is that absense of pressure and absense of anger (being approachable) that is also paving the way.
