MLC? Confused what to do (Part 3)

[AnthonyA]

So I guess what I am saying is, I don't know if I want to continue being with this woman who was in my life for 17 years. I am giving it some time to decide but that is the feeling i have had for a few weeks.

Don't put pressure on yourself to decide if you want to "continue" being with her. The truth is that you aren't together as man & wife now. You don't want to settle for bosom pals. Time has a way of helping us make decisions. You have made some wonderful improvements......especially not drinking. I think that is marvelous. You may outgrow your W. and discover your feelings do not extend more than caring for her as the mother of your children. On the other hand, the two of you may spend a few years apart and you both heal and find you still love each other.

I don't know if it's the feelings you are trying to let go......or if you are still clinging to hope she'll discover she wants to end her affair and reconcile the MR. I'm glad you know what you would require should that transpire. Realistically, I think she's going to have to be out of the MR and experience life without you. She's got to realize how bad this so-called BFF is for her, and end that relationship once and for all. She's got to figure it out for herself, you can't tell her. I think it is more difficult for women to end their friendships that have that type of influence, than ending their affair. They may give up the OM, but they will choose the BFF over the H. That shows the unhealthy mindset and influence of that whole dynamic. You can't heal her. You can only heal yourself.

Keep growing! ((hugs))

A lot of stuff has transpired over the past 24 hours. We had a talk yesterday. She started by accusing my of trying to screw her in the dissolution. And that I didn't want her to have a job, or friends and just be home alone. I got up and said if she was going to accuse me or try to argue with me, I was done. She settled down and I asked why she thought I did not want her to have a job. I told her I was supportive of her staying at home, or getting a job. I was supportive of what she wanted to do. I didn't want to make a decision for her on that front.

I asked about the friends. She said I told her that one of my conditions was to get rid of her friends. I said only one friend. Her BFF. She said that she has realized lately she is not a good person and she is slowly withdrawing from her. She said the OM does not like her and has let her see that she is not a good person especially when she drinks. This just amazes me that she finally realizes it from the OM...just great.

She said it has nothing to do with the OM like she said in the long email. I said it does. She said it doesn't. I told her to not tell me how I feel. The OM has a lot to do with this to me. The leaving me on a date, the open affair, etc. I told her that there is no relationship with him in the picture at all.

I then told her that actions speak louder than words and her walking down the lane the other day with a night bag told me that she spent the night at his house less than 36 hours of telling me she barely talked to him. She said that she knew I knew where she was since I opened the front door and asked her if she wanted to go in the front door instead of the garage. She said she broke it off with him that night physically and they are just friends. (more to come on that).

We talked about the dissolution and I think she realized I was being more than fair on the stuff and we ended the convo on a great note. A really good note of just felt good. She left and said she was going to a friends house at 630pm. One of my daughters loss a tooth and I sent a text to let her know.

This morning she was already laying on the couch when I got downstairs to leave. The motion sensor lights were already off so she was there for a while. I started the car and it was really warm...she is living right across the street so it told me she stayed the night far away since the engine was really warmed up. She admitted after I said something about her staying the night with the guy right after she said they broke it off, etc. She said nothing happen. I told her it isn't the fact that nothing happen. I told her I don't give a crap about the guy. I am tired of the dishonesty. Actions speak louder than words. I let my guard down a little but corrected myself. I told her that if she lied one more time to me on anything, I will go get a dissolution moving ASAP. I rather be told the truth than lied to.

She really doesn't know what she wants but I will be damned if I am lied to. I want to give myself a few months per my IC to make sure this is what I want before pulling the trigger. But the lies will make it far more. I think she may be waking up from the fog a little since she realizes BFF is toxic. I told her that I don't want her to not have friends. I told her I want her to have good friend.

We may talk again tonight as I ended the conversation other than that 100% honesty in the future. We shall see...I am willing to walk away..I can tell I have feelings for her but the lies will make me end it as I do not believe in lying. I think she is still physical with him but claims she isn't...not really care at this point since the staying the night has the appearance of such. I told her again, no relationship exists until OM is out of the picture 100%.

[AnthonyA]

Sandi,

I didn't heed your advice. We had another discussion that started off bad and I backtracked big time and spoke about us, OM, BFF, everything yesterday morning. We spoke for 3 hours. Neither of us ended up going to work. It was a very emotional discussion on both of us...a lot of tissues were used. It ended up being a really good discussions, as we let out our feelings, discussed everything. No yelling or screaming has occurred since she moved out. She even mentioned that she has noticed some change in me in just talking to her and communicating with her (one of my 180s). After the 3 hour discussion, I told her I was going upstairs (we were in basement), and I just laid down.

I went down to get my son some lunch since he was home sick and then I went and checked on her..spoke for a couple minutes and then went back upstairs to lay down. Still exhausted, depressed, etc from that discussion.

After an hour (she had left to go back to neighbors house), I started my workout to relieve some stress. Knock on the door of my bedroom and it was her. She sat down and said she wants to see if we can work it out between her and I. She said that she became close with the OM and she will have to slowly move away from him by lessening her talks with him.

I told her my condition and she knows she can't move in until it is 100% over with him. She is worried that she will not have feelings for me. She said she felt nothing as we held hands earlier. She then asked me to snuggle with her. I did. We just laid there and just held each other. The first interaction with her like that in over two months. We ended up kissing a little too but I wouldn't let or try to go any further. I am still guarded.

I don't know what she means by feelings but if she is comparing 17 years of being with someone to a new puppy love stage of a guy she just met, the feelings are totally different in my opinion. Luckily i Have an IC appointment today to talk a lot of this out. I would love to hear your opinion. I know she is still looking at apartments for 6 month because i told her we need to take it really really slow. Become friends first, before husband and wife again. I told her we need to crawl before we walk. So maybe that is why she is considering an apartment to still give it time since i said I want to take it extremely slow. I am not sure. I am lost. I am going to try and do what i have been doing of detaching and focusing on me. This is emotionally exhausting.

I don't know if it was a tactic or not...so I am unsure...

[neffer]

Hey man, that was a huge temp check. She wanted to know where you were. Now expect more waywardness. You know, DB has some strict rules to follow. You are free to follow them or not. But everytime you fall into ww world rules you reset your advantage points. I was a ww some time ago. So let me tell you the feeling W has for OM has no grade of comparison with the ones she has for you and the MR. I´m sorry to say this. Feelings are subjetive. They don´t depend on the past history, the amount of time or any other background. They are related with W mind so you can add there some addictions, limerence, selfishness and whatever is doing short circuit inside W´s head.

You need to keep getting into amoafwl. Keep detaching. She´s not there, she´s not on board your boat. She has to see that. You show her you are sailing out of the harbour (yes, I work with water...). There´s no way to move slowly away from OM, be aware of that. It´s black or white there, no greys allowed.

As you said, focus on yourself, detach, GAL. Be there for the kids, your first commitment now. Set her free and free yourself from her. Avoid MR talks, it´s nonsense now. She knows YOUR boundaries, right? You need to regain respect. Respect!

Be strong there Anthony, keep DB, keep moving forward. No expectations

Respect!

[Tryhard]

I had an old reliable car that I loved but got bored with . We had some great adventures together but it felt boring after a few years . I had a peek at the car showrooms and they had nice bright shiny fast exciting ones . I drove home and looked at my car , saw it was worn , had an annoying clink from the exhaust once in a while and was generally not what I wanted .
After discussing it with friends I was swayed to sell my car to my friend and finance a new sporty car . Things went great for a while , but after the initial rush of owning a new car wore off I began to compare the two . I started to miss that exhaust clink believe it or not . I dropped by my friends and saw he had reupholstered the interior, got it all clean and fixed up and smelling nice .

All I could think of now was if I could have a little drive again just to see how I felt now ......

[IHCLACS]

Tryhard. That is a great analogy.

[sandi2]

A lot of stuff has transpired over the past 24 hours. We had a talk yesterday. She started by accusing my of trying to screw her in the dissolution. And that I didn't want her to have a job, or friends and just be home alone. I got up and said if she was going to accuse me or try to argue with me, I was done. She settled down and I asked why she thought I did not want her to have a job. I told her I was supportive of her staying at home, or getting a job. I was supportive of what she wanted to do. I didn't want to make a decision for her on that front.

It's common to read how the WW expresses concern that her LBH will screw her when legal action begins. I think it's a classical case of projection. BTW, good job at shutting her down when she started that old behavior pattern of accusations.

I asked about the friends. She said I told her that one of my conditions was to get rid of her friends. I said only one friend. Her BFF. She said that she has realized lately she is not a good person and she is slowly withdrawing from her. She said the OM does not like her and has let her see that she is not a good person especially when she drinks. This just amazes me that she finally realizes it from the OM...just great.

Ironic, isn't it? She'll listen to most anyone but her H. That's true to WW form. In the past, didn't she agree that BFF wasn't good, but that's what she liked about her......and felt she (your W) could be herself around her without being judged? Well, believe nothing she says at this point.

She said it has nothing to do with the OM like she said in the long email. I said it does. She said it doesn't. I told her to not tell me how I feel. The OM has a lot to do with this to me. The leaving me on a date, the open affair, etc. I told her that there is no relationship with him in the picture at all.

Waywardness is the problem. It started with a wayward mindset and now it's led to the physical. The deeper she gets into a wayward lifestyle..... the more complex the problem becomes. Whatever she engages in (booze, drugs, men, GGW behavior, off the wall "spiritualism", experiments, etc.) the more she'll have to deal with once she decides to turn around. I know it is very hard for H's to believe the OM is not the problem. An affair is certainly a problem for the MR. IMHO, the real issues started a long time ago. And those are the issues your WW still thinks about and blames for the problems in the M. She does not see OM as the problem. She separates the problems in the M from her OM.

When she reached the stage of rebellion, she was hanging out with BFF, and it soon led to OM......which added to the problem. But whether or not she can see it that way......IDK. B/c she was done with the M by that point, and it's like thinking of the M as then, and BFF & OM as now. That way, she keeps you and the M problems in a separate category from her new single lifestyle. It's really hard to explain. I try to caution LBH's that if the WW breaks up with her current affair partner, she's likely to find a replacement. B/c she is after the thrill. So, I understand how she sees that OM is not the real problem. I'm not saying you should be okay with her having an A with OM, but you are focused on the guy. Ending her A and friendship with BFF is the first step, but it won't solve the problems that existed before they entered into your lives. As long as she is acting out in rebellion, other men may come and go....b/c she wants to feel the thrill. I'm not suggesting you should be fine with any of it. I'm just trying to explain her weirdness.

She said she broke it off with him that night physically and they are just friends.

Riiiiight.
Can't be "friends" with ex-affair partners.

After an hour (she had left to go back to neighbors house), I started my workout to relieve some stress. Knock on the door of my bedroom and it was her. She sat down and said she wants to see if we can work it out between her and I. She said that she became close with the OM and she will have to slowly move away from him by lessening her talks with him.

Yeah, well she can't slowly pull away from him. That doesn't work. It has to end quick and final. This woman just wants to have you as her backup, without giving up OM. I don't think she'll want to give up her wayward lifestyle......whatever all of that includes.

I told her my condition and she knows she can't move in until it is 100% over with him. She is worried that she will not have feelings for me. She said she felt nothing as we held hands earlier. She then asked me to snuggle with her. I did. We just laid there and just held each other. The first interaction with her like that in over two months. We ended up kissing a little too but I wouldn't let or try to go any further. I am still guarded.

Remember when you laughed at my statement to not be surprised if she tries to initiate sex? Well, this is a prime example of how that happens. Guess who gets their hopes up and then gets hurt again?

As far as her not feeling anything when you held hands, or whatever.........she can't expect to feel butterflies with you when she has OM in her head. A woman does not feel desire for two men at the same time. She may sleep with more than one, but she'll only desire one man at a time. Currently, her lust for sex outside the MR, selfishness and rebellion are playing havoc with any normal feelings she might experience otherwise whenever touching her H. Notice that your WW was concerned about whether or not she could feel anything from snuggling & kissing with you. It was all about "her", not you or how you might feel. The WW is arrogant and she never stops to think that her H might not want her. Your WW was not wondering if you felt any special feelings for her while she was kissing you. She was to centered on herself.

I don't know what she means by feelings but if she is comparing 17 years of being with someone to a new puppy love stage of a guy she just met, the feelings are totally different in my opinion. Luckily i Have an IC appointment today to talk a lot of this out. I would love to hear your opinion. I know she is still looking at apartments for 6 month because i told her we need to take it really really slow. Become friends first, before husband and wife again. I told her we need to crawl before we walk. So maybe that is why she is considering an apartment to still give it time since i said I want to take it extremely slow. I am not sure. I am lost. I am going to try and do what i have been doing of detaching and focusing on me. This is emotionally exhausting.

She was checking to see if there was some romantic emotions when she held your hand. That's all. Remember she acts out of emotions, and she was seeing if she felt any sparks from touching your hand. Same thing when she asked you to snuggle with her. She's testing to see if she feels any desirable/loving feelings. That's another reason she may try to have sex with you. She wants to see if anything is stirred within her.

If a couple were affectionate and had a good sex life before the WW started an A, then I believe there is high probability it will resume once the couple reconciles and she gets the OM out of her head. However, the LBH needs to understand that she needs time for her emotions to adjust. When she ends the affair, goes completely NC with the OM, she'll actually go through a period of withdrawal symptoms. If she was bar hoping every night, or some other activity, to suddenly stop and stay home with her family......may feel depressing, IDK. I didn't go out drinking or anything of that nature, but I certainly had withdrawal symptoms when I ended my A and went NC. My biggest fear of committing to my MR was that loving feelings for my H would not return and I would feel dead for the rest of my life. It took me a while, b/c I had inner work to do on myself. Once I got the OM out of my head and stopped fantasizing about him or any other person......I was able to feel true remorse, and my loving feelings for my H returned.

I don't know if it was a tactic or not...so I am unsure...

I wouldn't put much stock in it. Sorry, but she gave no indication of a woman who wants to work to save her M. I don't know what all you may have told her, but what you posted sounded okay. Not sure how it was ended, like if the two of you are suppose to be working toward getting back together. I don't know what you told her you would require, other than the part about OM and BFF. There has to be more than that. It would be a great start, if she would end all contact with OM and BFF forever.......but the two of you had serious issues before they every came into the picture.

For whatever reason, she needed to secure her backup plan......and I think that's all it was. ((hugs)) She's going to have to get a lot more serious about doing whatever it takes to save her M. As long as she's saying things about slowly letting OM go, and being friends with him.......she's not ready. Even if she claims to break up with him, I don't think she'd last no time before she'd be back out there playing the single life. You can't take her back too easily, or it won't last. You have to make her work to get you back. She doesn't even see it as if she's getting you back. She thinks it's all up to whether or not she wants to go back home, and thinks you'll be tickled pink to get her. Am I making sense? You've got to be harder to get. Don't buy into her b.s. about slowly detaching from OM. Don't let her come back on those type of terms. .

[gzabetas]

Wow neffer. Thanks for that.

Even if it was replied specifically here, you gave me the answer I needed to hear today.

[AnotherStander]

I had an old reliable car that I loved but got bored with . We had some great adventures together but it felt boring after a few years . I had a peek at the car showrooms and they had nice bright shiny fast exciting ones . I drove home and looked at my car , saw it was worn , had an annoying clink from the exhaust once in a while and was generally not what I wanted .
After discussing it with friends I was swayed to sell my car to my friend and finance a new sporty car . Things went great for a while , but after the initial rush of owning a new car wore off I began to compare the two . I started to miss that exhaust clink believe it or not . I dropped by my friends and saw he had reupholstered the interior, got it all clean and fixed up and smelling nice .

All I could think of now was if I could have a little drive again just to see how I felt now ......

Hahaha! My old car was always a place of comfort for me. Always there, always reliable, welcoming, warm. Then without warning I couldn't even hardly get the door open. I would try and try but even if the door opened it was cold and clammy inside and still wouldn't start. But crazily enough, others would get in and she would start right up and rev her engine for them! Finally I asked myself "why am I doing this to myself when I could have a shiny new car that starts for me every time?" I liked that old car but zipping down the highway at crazy speeds in my shiny new one sure beats what the old one put me through at the end

[AnthonyA]

Remember when you laughed at my statement to not be surprised if she tries to initiate sex? Well, this is a prime example of how that happens. Guess who gets their hopes up and then gets hurt again?

As far as her not feeling anything when you held hands, or whatever.........she can't expect to feel butterflies with you when she has OM in her head. A woman does not feel desire for two men at the same time. She may sleep with more than one, but she'll only desire one man at a time. Currently, her lust for sex outside the MR, selfishness and rebellion are playing havoc with any normal feelings she might experience otherwise whenever touching her H. Notice that your WW was concerned about whether or not she could feel anything from snuggling & kissing with you. It was all about "her", not you or how you might feel. The WW is arrogant and she never stops to think that her H might not want her. Your WW was not wondering if you felt any special feelings for her while she was kissing you. She was to centered on herself.

So she came and talked to me last night. She said she felt nothing at all when we snuggled, or kissed. She also said that it has nothing to do with the OM. She said that she isn't a typical person and can separate him from me. WTF? I told her that there is no way she could have feelings for two people at the same time. She has said that she wanted to hug me in the past and resisted. But when we just held each other, she felt nothing. Nothing at all. She claimed that for the first hour, she didn't think of the OM at all. This is a joke. She can't separate the two. But that is for her to find out.

I am going to tell her if she wants to have any more relationship discussions that there will be none unless my conditions are met. I am not going to let my guard down. She has feelings for him still. That tells me that she is not just "friends" with him.

Oh well, fell off the horse. I need to climb back up on it and keep DBing. I messed up and was vulnerable. One step forwards, five steps backwards.

Sandi, based on how everything was going, snuggling, kissing, sex were not even foreseeable and then she just went for the kill. You are so dead on in your thoughts that it amazes me. I need your phone number to walk me through this! you are a wealth of knowledge. My BIL has been a wealth of knowledge and echoes a lot of what you say. It is just amazing how predictable these WW become. I had to laugh when she said she was not like a typical female and she can do this and that. The reason I laughed was because she is following the script that you are predicting. What should I be ready for next? LOL

[IHCLACS]

.

She was checking to see if there was some romantic emotions when she held your hand. That's all. Remember she acts out of emotions, and she was seeing if she felt any sparks from touching your hand. Same thing when she asked you to snuggle with her. She's testing to see if she feels any desirable/loving feelings. That's another reason she may try to have sex with you. She wants to see if anything is stirred within her.

This part stands out to me. I have always said, based off of what I've learned, that feelings can deceive and manipulate your heart, because they change sometimes by the hour. because women are emotional and guided by their feelings, they can easily be manipulated, especially by a PUA or OM. Men test their actions out on women to see if the feelings are not only reciprocated, but experienced. Hence limerace phase.

Although their are vastly different opinions on this in regard to feelings and being deceived, especially in love and limerace, short term vs. long term, different sexes opinions, etc. I want to know which one, and who's right? Is love a feeling? Is love an action? Is love a choice? If it truly was a commitment, most of us wouldn't be here, would we?

The reason why I bring this up is because I've been reading a lot about conditional love vs. unconditional love lately. Worldly love vs. Godly love. Romantic love, which has its Shakesperian origins from the 1600's Europe vs. Practical love, and healthy sound decisions. Can anyone agreed that love has been over romanticized in the past 100 years by Hollywood, on what it should be?