Finding the Balance then Tipping the Scale (3)

[neffer]

Time and patience, as usual Adam. Glad to read what you wrote.

Just keep expectations under control so as to get anxiety away. Keep your road of getting amoafwl. W sees that.
Shine for the kids, they need that light!

Keep walking man.

Time and patience.

[lost8]

Hey Adam...been a while and it looks like things are improving. As you saw in my sitch there has been the same. Definitely beware of the negative thoughts though...through my IC I found I had for sure experienced some PTSD to some degree and catch my self spiraling in my own head about past events.

If some kind of R is what you want, live for the day, look forward to tomorrow and be a better person along the way.

[AnotherStander]

Adam, things are progressing nicely, your W is starting to realize that life without you maybe isn't as good as life with you. But I think you are setting your DB'ing aside and letting yourself get swept up in your W's cake-eating. Please understand she is not even remotely interested in recon right now, she's just trying to ease her transition to the single life and she's using you to do it. You really need to get back to DB basics. Remember why you are here, remember what got you here, remember your goals and remember how you can achieve those goals. Focus! I realize you are trying to ease the transition for the kids, but don't play house with W. It's just going to be painful to you when you temp check her and get BD'd all over again.

...and the SIL and I got another round of beer and drank a pitcher together.

Why??????? Why would you do that? REMEMBER YOUR GOALS. Ask yourself "Is what I am about to do getting me closer to my goals are farther away?" ASK YOURSELF THIS ALL THE TIME.

[Adam04]

Nef, lost, AS, thanks guys for the support.

Nef, yup, as usual, time and patience. This will be a long road ahead. I was deviating and falling off. Need to get back on track for myself and my kids. I was enjoying time with W and was caught up in the moment.

lost, hey bud, how are you? Sorry to hear you were experiencing some PTSD. Taking it day by day for sure. I need to step back and re-evaluate where I am and what I want.

AS, thanks for those words to help me get back on the right path. I know the drinking with the SIL was a bad idea when it was a few drinks in. At first it was just to enjoy a cold one and my BIL was there too but he decided not to drink and I was like ayyy, free beer.

I was enjoying the sex and thinking it didn't matter if it didn't affect my emotions and I had no expectations on R.

Going to go back to being scarce, keeping convos short and pertaining to kids or finances, and not giving in to the sex if she even initiates? Am I hearing this clearly? Guess I can do this another 8 months which will put me at 1 1/2 years...sounds about right. Let's see where this takes me on my journey.

I'm sure she will ask about the sudden change if she makes advances. Wondering what I can say to be vague or to let her know I've done some thinking and "it's probably best we don't" and leave it at that.

AS, I'm sure you're right that if I temp check her she'd BD me all over again. I don't have any interest to find out.

[ovrrnbw]

Hi Adam,

I just got caught up on your sitch. Very interesting.

My BIL says from what he's heard about my sitch was that my W wasn't cheating on me in the sense I was thinking but could have been going to lunch with a male coworker.

My inlaws said this too, about a year ago, after I learned that my W stayed over at OM's. FIL immediately said "maybe they didn't sleep together, we don't know that". It was so reactionary and visceral. He couldn't believe what he was hearing, didn't want to believe that his goody 2 shoes daughter was having an affair. Family puts on the rose colored glasses for other family.

I think you are making serious progress on yourself and on your W. But no one knows what will happen. Don't go too fast, but don't be afraid to be true to yourself. These DB boards can become an echo chamber at times. Be you.

Your son sounds like an awesome little dude btw.

[FlySolo]

Adam - when BD first happens our emotions are all over the place and can't and shouldn't be trusted. So we rightly, go against our instincts, stop all pursuit and work on us. It is hard as hell but we do it. We keep conversations short because anything more could lead to more hurt and backsliding. We guard our hearts. But slowly, over the months through GAL, 180 and detaching, and acquire the tools to navigate their storms (and some storms of our own making). And we come here. We use this board to question, to vent, and sometimes as a way to constructively make our way out of the cheeseless tunnels (by way of one or two of AS's 2x4s).

Like you I had put the tiny flicker of hope that refuses to be extinguished way way back at the back of my mind. Whenever it pops up (an unexpected smile, a gift, a small kindness) I say "temp check" and push it away.

But at some point we should be able to trust our intuition again and cautiously let down our guard.

We forget that it is OK to hope. It is OK to enjoy intimacy with your W. It is OK to show kindness. Just don't expect.

Open up your heart a little (reciprocate smiles, reciprocate invites, offer small kindnesses). Become friends. But do so with no expectation. Expectation is what brings on the hurt and remember she has been careless your heart before.

[Adam04]

hey ovrrnbw, Haven't seen you in a little while. Hope all is well with you. That sounds kinda crazy your FIL for saying that. I get what BIL was saying though if it was a male coworker because W and I have been going to lunch for years with people of the opposite sex. I've met many people from her work and her mine. Some point I lost touch with that, and not saying its bad. Just unfortunate that our marital problems would be fuel for all the other mess.

FS, I hear you and thank you. I've been showing kindness to W all week. Although I feel numb at the moment. I don't know what to feel.


This last week I have had my boys over at the apartment and we live upstairs. They make sooo much noise stomping. They are not used to living in an apartment and I know the lady downstairs with her small child can hear mine throughout the day and nights. I feel bad. W has been over almost every night. She calls to ask if she can come over to hang out with the kids.

Earlier last weekend, she said this " Adam, I need you to pick up the boys on x day because people from out of town will be coming in and so and so will be going to dinner with us from work" I asked, is this on your week and she said yes. I told her I couldn't. I think she was withdrawn after that. She seemed to run hot and cold with emotion. She then said she will see about trying to schedule an earlier dinner or something and figure it out. She asked if I would be working out that week and I said yes. W had helped me with the kids when I was doing overtime and maybe she felt like it was natural for me to help her when she needed it. The way it sounded was like she expected me to help though.

So this stuck out and she said some other things and I didn't want her to get the wrong impression. I remember she said she didn't want to get hurt with us being physical so one night when she was over I wanted to stop the bleeding and to let her know maybe its best if we stopped for a while due to listening to AS advice on getting back to DB basics.

My mind has been swimming for a couple of days and I cant piece everything that has been said. It ended up with her feeling hurt because she said she thought we were working towards recon. I told her no I didn't see that because of an initial hurdle and it isn't that easy anymore. She said she had to leave. I addressed that as well. I told her for a long time whenever we would have a discussion if it was heated or not, if she didn't want to deal with it she would leave. I told her this was a form of control. This time she sat for a minute and let it sink in. I told her it would be different if she said something like I need to cool down and come back to resolve this but it doesn't happen that way. So I confronted her on that in the moment like I thought I should. When she did leave we ended up texting. I texted her telling her about the infidelity being the first obstacle to any type of recon if there was to be recon. She acted clueless, said she was not cheating, and said she knows what she wants.

She said she knew what she wanted when I was at her house and we were together on the sofa. I didn't ask her that time because I didn't want to bring up any R talk. This time she said it and was asking me about us so I asked her what she wanted. She sent me a text saying she wanted to work on us, she didn't want a divorce. She wanted to work on better communication, being transparent. I asked her if she knew what transparent meant. So I broke it down, if I had access to all her apps, emails, skype, phone, have her turn on the find me app, or ping me her loc at any time if she would ever have a problem with this if she wanted to be transparent. She said no that she would not have any problems with it. This was a convo in text unfortunately that spanned over a day. She said she was willing to go to MC and work on us. She said she wanted to make all the decisions with the house and I guess be in control but when she was in that big empty house without me and the boys she realized it didn't mean [censored]. She still swore she did nothing wrong with the cheating and didn't know why I felt that way. I told her to google it to humor me and she said she saw 9 out of 10 signs that what she was doing matched a cheating spouse and was so sorry.

For the birth control pills, she told me she has medical records going back to when it began if I wanted to look at them. She tried to explain everything else but some things she couldn't. The guy pic, the lying...

She said her life has been her family, me and the boys and her work and she has worked so hard to get where she was. She said she would not risk an affair at work with anyone over her job because her job meant everything to her. She also said she realized she put her job ahead of me and was putting a lot of stuff ahead of me because she felt like I checked out. She wanted a partner. She told me what she saw in me when she was over here with the boys in me cooking for them, taking them to school and providing, this is what she wanted in her partner.

I told her I'm sorry but I'm not sure if I can trust her and maybe its just best we focus on the kids for now. We talked about coming out on the other side better people and at the least we can be better coparents. She said we would need to stop the physical stuff because she might get the wrong idea between us and don't want to get hurt.

W said she will get help and will work on herself. I even suggested John Gottman to her. Would there be anything I could suggest if this does come up again or should I just let it rest?

We spoke in hypotheticals. We talked as if recon could be in the distant future but I'm still adamant about the remorse and getting truth. I am expecting and expecting something that I know will never happen and it is starting to hurt so I want to go numb.

A part of me wants to believe her and that want is going to hurt me. I feel like she is playing games with me yet I sense she does want to keep the family together for the boys and her. She included me but I don't 100% believe she wont cake eat while having me at home for the boys and someone else for her other needs.

So... I said what I said to her and she reciprocated back she understood and we'd be cordial. I feel like there is going to be this taboo and air between us. I'd want her and need to discipline myself and have self control.

I know the texting could have been to a minimal and we tried to facetime but with the kids here, that time to talk was minimal.


From all of this, I know I need to give myself some space from my W and believe nothing she says. I thought about a polygraph test and what that would mean if W ever asked what it would take.

I haven't gotten on much due to my S11 pc is right next to mine and he can look over to see what site I am on.

This weekend, I am going to look for my boys' bed(s) and the older one's pc. Next week my S6 turns 7 and W and I have taken the day to spend with him. After that, it will be getting them back into riding their bikes and going to the park with the pond. I also plan to workout next week.

Getting up earlier at 5ish to drive the kids out and making it in to work on time so far. Worked out an alternate schedule with my boss in case I'm late. Have tons of overtime coming up because of a new conversion with the software. W has offered to help with the kids on my weeks.

I have slept better when I had the bed to myself. Now its full with the kids. W and I haven't adjusted yet to being totally separated from one another. There was maybe one day she didn't come over because of her brother doing something at her house. And the same for me going over there. Next week, this may change as I work out and come home later.

Have a few more boxes to unpack and I'll be done. Oh... and I am proud of my S11 for doing things around the apartment. I am showing him how to cook, use the rice cooker, and cook up stuff on the stove. I supervised and he chopped up some sausage to stir fry with some rice. Basic stuff to start with.

[dillydaf]

Adam: you sound very confused and I'm sure she's picking up on that. You did really well telling her how she distances, maybe you could come up with suggestions on how to handle that? As a distancer myself it's a way of handling rejection and overwhelming emotion. You could suggest having a 30 minute timeout if she feels like she needs to leave, that could be a good start. I'm assuming if she's a distancer then you are the pursuer? But it seems like that's a behaviour you're changing, which is good.

I haven't read all of your sitch, but do you guys just go out on dates ever, just the two of you? If not, I highly recommend you start there. I know neither of you want to get hurt and both of you want to R (really, she does, I know you feel untrusting but it seems like she's realised how much she has to lose). So if you go back to basics, take her out somewhere new and do something nice together (activities are good, they take the pressure off unlike face to face dinners) then maybe you can start to rebuild, nice and slowly. Which seems weird when you've had sex, but hey at least you know that side of it is still good right?

[Adam04]

Hi Dilly,

Yeah I guess I am the pursuer if she is the distancer. And yes that is changing.

As for the confusion, I knew it was getting late I think it was 12am when I wrote that and it was hard to try and remember convos with her word for word or the timing over a week. As for my feelings, I’m guarded and every so often I want to let the walls down so I can pick up her vulnerability. If I was hard, dismissive, and always matter of factly, she’d not want to come back. The trick is trying to navigate thru this cake eating and thawing. It’s easier to ask well has anything changed and if not we continue about our normal business. If the right thing to do is wait before dating her again for an admission of guilt then that is what I am waiting on. From what I’ve read to seen, if there is an AP that cord needs to be cut first and if we can’t even get to the first step of being honest about that then that dating will still be under the veil of deceit. That’s just how I feel and maybe the confusion lies around that. If there were any expectation it would be a hurtful truth as an indication to me that she is finally coming around to possible recon. Not sure if dating would equate to that. Just saying what I would imagine the first step to be like towards recon.

I think I can do the dating, have sex, enjoy her company and have no expectations better than she can. This is where I didn’t want to misrepresent myself or come across as careless. For some living in the moment could be seen that way. That could sound conflicting, living in the moment with no expectations to guard our feelings vs believing what a foundation should look like for a possible MR 2.0, built on some honesty in the form of admission or truth of what happened. Yeah it all sounds confusing to me too.

Sometimes trying to think about it all and put it into words is a bit much. I am seeing some of her steps inthe right direction toward recon but the remorse and truth of what happened isn’t there.

I need to stay the course as a single father getting his life straightened out and not get caught up in my feelings.

[lost8]

I think I can do the dating, have sex, enjoy her company and have no expectations better than she can. This is where I didn’t want to misrepresent myself or come across as careless. For some living in the moment could be seen that way. That could sound conflicting, living in the moment with no expectations to guard our feelings vs believing what a foundation should look like for a possible MR 2.0, built on some honesty in the form of admission or truth of what happened. Yeah it all sounds confusing to me too.

Hey Adam,

Good to see things moving in a positive direction I hope. I pulled this quote because it is a possible MR 2.0. If things are working out no one wants to go back to the old MR. The key is the expectations. It wasn't until I knew that I could live without W or WW or whatever that I was able to drop the rope. I was scared, angry, resentful and once that all passed I made the change that ultimately made her the pursuer.

It wasn't until then that she offered up full disclosure, a change in everything that brought back a more recognizable person than the alien form I had seen for the last year. I am comfortable putting my toe back in the water...not taking a total header just in case it is shallow. She will need to continue with her transparency, you shouldn't have to ask and it should be without hesitation and when you feel the need, not all the time....otherwise it will drive you crazy! Sex? absolutely if she is initiating, I find she will initiate more because because I am not...I am just continuing to make myself better for me and that is probably the most attractive thing that gets noticed.

But still be aware, no expectations...you will know if something is not right. My wife now offers up everything...100%, even if she is just going to the store. She wants my trust and knows this is the only way.