Persistent Endurance (Part 3)

[ovrrnbw]

Curtis,

I feel your pain. Been there and done that.

But this talk is just talk.

You can't tell her what to do or what you'll live with.

You can show her. Your talk was just a confrontation without action, a toothless wolf.

You have progressed but she has not felt your boundary bc your boundary is soft.

I wish you good luck moving forward.

[ovrrnbw]

What I mean is you aren't ready to take action to end it.

Sobustong. If you really aren't ready. Or great creative or go affair busting.

[Ready2Change]

Huge update...expected outcome..... I felt compelled to take a stand.

What boundaries are you putting in place?

What is you plan?

So what is your next step?

[LH19]

C,

You really should come to the board before making big moves like that. Ok. You stated your boundaries. She basically laughed at them. What are the consequences?

[sandi2]

So, I had the "I will NOT live in an open marriage" talk with WW tonight.

Okay, let's talk about this. First of all, if you called yourself stating a boundary, then it shouldn't have been a "talk". Secondly, you went to her house, b/c the two of you are already physically separated, due to her affair. Therefore, the only consequences for dishonoring your boundary is a divorce. You see, if the couple physically separates due to an affair, then the betrayed spouse is not exactly living in an open M, except on paper. Thirdly, whenever stating a boundary, you just say what it is (no discussions, no negotiations, etc.) and then you turn and walk away. Fourthly, you don't bring up other issues when you state the boundary.

So, you were mad when S8 told you that mom had spent the time texting OM. That is understandable, and it's difficult to hear these things. However, I'm not sure if this situation fueled your action to go to her house to state your boundary, or if you saw it as an opportunity to state your boundary. Either way, I wished you had posted before you went to her house, and waited to see responses by the board.

LBS's should not approach the WS about more than one subject at a time. So, make it your rule of thumb to stick to only one subject whenever you need to address or confront her about it. You told her you would not tolerate her texting OM in front of S8. She knows there is nothing you can do about it.

I spent the rest of the night contemplating what action to take. I knew this talk was coming, but I was planning on waiting until either the end of this month or the end of next month so she could see more of my 180s and GAL. However, it was time for me to take back my respect.

Well, once your WW moves out, there is no point in chasing her down to give the "I will not live in an open M". If you had posted how you were planning to wait for a month or more for her to see you GAL, etc.,
you probably would have been advised that it was too late to state to her that boundary.....unless you are ready to D. I mean, you can have the boundary in your own mind, but you don't have to say it to her. You just do the actions if she dishonors your boundary. Do you see what I mean? Now, if you let her move out under the pretense that she just needed some space to figure herself out and nothing was ever said about her wayward behavior.......then what you said about the boundary might be okay. It lets her know that you are now aware of the deceit and betrayal. However, considering how you waited till the last minute, I don't think you should have any expectations in her changing her behavior.....or her mind. It will push you to act, should she not follow through with the D.

I'll have to admit, I didn't have long to rehearse the script, but it was imperative that I take action as she was about to send me an email on taking the next steps to divide assets before seeing an attorney.

So you were trying to state a boundary of not living in an open M, before she could send the email. It's a little too late to state it when you are dividing up assets. Now if she were to change her mind and start hinting that she might return to the M, then you could say it. But not when she's ready to split assets.

I went to her house and knocked on the door late in the evening after the kids went to sleep. Here is the exchange:

Your timing was way off. You went after the separation. You went to her house, and you went late in the evening. Frankly, I would have probably thrown my H out, too, if he came to my house telling me he wasn't going to tolerate something I had done.......or laying out some kind of boundary for the M.

H: Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something S8 told me today. S8 said you were texting all afternoon with some guy named OM2.

She is going to tell him to never discuss what he hears or sees in that house. S8 will feel he can't trust you with what he says. This a mistake I've seen many newcomers make.

I've tolerated this intolerable behavior for 6 months and I will not tolerate it any longer when you lie to our children.

Well, what are you going to do about it? Did you have a plan of action when you said this?

The first 4 months were pure hell for me, but over the past 2 months I've recovered and I'm in a much better place and I like the direction I'm headed and our kids like it too. I still love you and want to work on this marriage, but I will not be a part of it when you are engaged in affairs with OM.

You are not a part of it, b/c you are physically separated. You should not have said the kids liked it, too, nor told her you still love her and want to work on the M.

Let's be clear about one thing, this separation was not about you having space, it was about having affairs. You made the choice to have affairs over marriage and family and will have to live with the consequences.

I have to admit, I like most of that one. It helps support you stating your boundary, if she left on the pretense of something other than OM. However, I don't think you should have added about her living with consequences. Are those consequences coming from you? If so, what do you plan?

W: You don't know what you're talking about, there is nothing going on.
H: Please stop, we both know you're lying right now, please let me finish. I know you're having an affair with OM2, it's disrespectful to me, our marriage, and our family.
W: You don't know anything, there's nothing going on with OM2.
H: Stop, we both know your lying (holding my hand up while looking her dead in the eyes).
H: I will NOT live in an open marriage. Looks like we both have some big decisions to make.
W: We can get a divorce, I was ready to send you an email today to start dividing everything.

I think you were busting to use these statements you've read in DB threads. If you had said it earlier, it would have been more effective than coming in at the 11th hour to tell her. For her, there are no big decisions to make, b/c she was going to email you that night about divisions of assets. Do you see how your timing was way off? Timing is everything.

Your choice to continue cheating and make things worse and destroy our family or end the cheating and make things better and help our family.
W: You can't come to my house unannounced. Now, get out!
H: You need to think long and hard about the impact of your choices on our children. Do you think children are resilient?

Man, she told you to get out of her house, and you are still talking? This boundary has turned into you pressing her emotionally. The more you use the kids to make her feel guilty, the more contempt she'll have for you.

Some may feel I acted in haste, but with one OM after another with no end in sight, I felt compelled to take a stand.

Your place and time was bad. You chose a place where she could kick you out. You used S8's information as your excuse to open the "discussion" with her, and you knew you only had minutes to do it before getting her email. You wanted to use these "statements" you've read on the board. There is nothing wrong with those statements from the board, but if not said in the right place in the right time frame.......they are not very effective, IMHO. I think the one where you pointed out that this S was never about her having space, was the best opener you could have used, and left out all that stuff about S8, your feelings, etc. You could have made that statement and immediately gave your boundary and then left (which I'm pretty sure is included in with this advice about the statement examples). Let me explain something about those statements on the board. For the most part, they are examples you can use when confronting the WW, or when telling her your boundary, or when she is telling you lies. However, you can't use them with the expectation it will change anything in the sitch. They are examples how to respond to a wayward or to confront........but they are not solutions. If you saw them as some way of making her come to her senses, then I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Yes, they sound strong and maybe have a punch to them, but they were not meant to use to pull the WW out of her fog.

I was extremely calm and confident throughout, while she was increasingly angered and filled with rage. I did not let it rattle me or affect my emotions. I am ready to accept and do not fear what follows. Now we'll see what develops over the coming days and weeks.

That's good that you remained calm and confident. Have no expectations! You've said it, now be ready to follow through. I don't think any of it will stop her affairs. If it made you feel strong by saying it, okay. If you expect it to change her behavior at this point, I think you'll be disappointed. Let me ask a question. What will you do if she doesn't push the D? What if she just continues having affairs and doesn't pursue with a D?

So now, you start from the line you've drawn in the sand. I don't think it hurt the sitch, but I don't expect it to change her mind.

((hugs))

[curtis7]

Curtis,

You can't tell her what to do or what you'll live with.

You can show her. Your talk was just a confrontation without action, a toothless wolf.

You have progressed but she has not felt your boundary bc your boundary is soft.

What boundaries are you putting in place?

What is you plan?

So what is your next step?

You really should come to the board before making big moves like that. Ok. You stated your boundaries. She basically laughed at them. What are the consequences?

Next step is boxing up her remaining clothes in my house and putting them in the garage.

Then, tomorrow morning contacting L to review my options to best protect my kids from WW. The big decision is whether I file. If it's in the best interest of my kids, then I'm prepared to take that action.

[curtis7]

Okay, let's talk about this. First of all, if you called yourself stating a boundary, then it shouldn't have been a "talk". Secondly, you went to her house, b/c the two of you are already physically separated, due to her affair. Therefore, the only consequences for dishonoring your boundary is a divorce. You see, if the couple physically separates due to an affair, then the betrayed spouse is not exactly living in an open M, except on paper. Thirdly, whenever stating a boundary, you just say what it is (no discussions, no negotiations, etc.) and then you turn and walk away. Fourthly, you don't bring up other issues when you state the boundary.

Yes, the "talk" lasted about 5 minutes, you're right that I lingered too long and brought up multiple issues rather than sticking with setting the primary boundary. I hadn't spoken with her about her actions and choices in a couple months and didn't know if I would have another opportunity, so I decided to get multiple issues out on the table.

Well, once your WW moves out, there is no point in chasing her down to give the "I will not live in an open M". If you had posted how you were planning to wait for a month or more for her to see you GAL, etc.,
you probably would have been advised that it was too late to state to her that boundary.....unless you are ready to D. I mean, you can have the boundary in your own mind, but you don't have to say it to her. You just do the actions if she dishonors your boundary. Do you see what I mean? Now, if you let her move out under the pretense that she just needed some space to figure herself out and nothing was ever said about her wayward behavior.......then what you said about the boundary might be okay. It lets her know that you are now aware of the deceit and betrayal. However, considering how you waited till the last minute, I don't think you should have any expectations in her changing her behavior.....or her mind. It will push you to act, should she not follow through with the D.

I see what you mean, but the latter is the case. She played this entire physical separation as needing emotional space and distance from the MR. She has been gaslighting and lying to me since the confrontation on OM1 in December. I did not set a boundary at that time and instead forgave her within days. She didn't know that I was aware of the PA that she has moved onto with OM2. She has been cake eating for months and I needed to stand up for myself for me. I didn't want to sit back and leave this MR without her knowing that I know the truth of her escapades and chose not to call her out on them. I went in with almost zero expectations that she would change her mind, especially not on the spot. I wanted her to know that her fantasy is not a secret and that her betrayal will have long lasting consequences on her and our family if she chooses to follow through with the D.

Your timing was way off. You went after the separation. You went to her house, and you went late in the evening. Frankly, I would have probably thrown my H out, too, if he came to my house telling me he wasn't going to tolerate something I had done.......or laying out some kind of boundary for the M.

I did wait too long, I see that now. Had I set a firm boundary earlier in my sitch, things may be different today. Others here told me I would regret it and they were right. The LBS is so blinded by the W they used to be married to that we hold out hope for so long that they will come around and see the light. I'm afraid, this is almost never the case from the sitches and books that I've read, especially with PAs and WWs.

I've tolerated this intolerable behavior for 6 months and I will not tolerate it any longer when you lie to our children.

Well, what are you going to do about it? Did you have a plan of action when you said this?

I plan to contact L tomorrow to find out what options I have to protect my kids and act in their best interest.

Let's be clear about one thing, this separation was not about you having space, it was about having affairs. You made the choice to have affairs over marriage and family and will have to live with the consequences.

I have to admit, I like most of that one. It helps support you stating your boundary, if she left on the pretense of something other than OM. However, I don't think you should have added about her living with consequences. Are those consequences coming from you? If so, what do you plan?

Credit AllenA for that one. He took it a step further and recommended exposure to family and friends so all knew the WW was choosing an A over MR. The cake eating is now over, she has fired me as her H. I will be civil and co-parent with her, but nothing else. If she ever chooses to end the A, then I might consider R. Although, right now, I am going to distance myself from her as far as possible.

W: You don't know what you're talking about, there is nothing going on.
H: Please stop, we both know you're lying right now, please let me finish. I know you're having an affair with OM2, it's disrespectful to me, our marriage, and our family.
W: You don't know anything, there's nothing going on with OM2.
H: Stop, we both know your lying (holding my hand up while looking her dead in the eyes).
H: I will NOT live in an open marriage. Looks like we both have some big decisions to make.
W: We can get a divorce, I was ready to send you an email today to start dividing everything.

I think you were busting to use these statements you've read in DB threads. If you had said it earlier, it would have been more effective than coming in at the 11th hour to tell her. For her, there are no big decisions to make, b/c she was going to email you that night about divisions of assets. Do you see how your timing was way off? Timing is everything.

Yes, you're probably right, unless she thinks this A can stay underground for a long time without others finding out. She may think twice about what she stands to lose in life if it becomes known to others. I have not decided to expose the A further and doubt it would help right now anyways.

Your choice to continue cheating and make things worse and destroy our family or end the cheating and make things better and help our family.
W: You can't come to my house unannounced. Now, get out!
H: You need to think long and hard about the impact of your choices on our children. Do you think children are resilient?

Man, she told you to get out of her house, and you are still talking? This boundary has turned into you pressing her emotionally. The more you use the kids to make her feel guilty, the more contempt she'll have for you.

I missed the mark on that one. I thought at some point a mother's guilt would factor into shedding light on their choices and possibly exiting the fog.

That's good that you remained calm and confident. Have no expectations! You've said it, now be ready to follow through. I don't think any of it will stop her affairs. If it made you feel strong by saying it, okay. If you expect it to change her behavior at this point, I think you'll be disappointed. Let me ask a question. What will you do if she doesn't push the D? What if she just continues having affairs and doesn't pursue with a D?

I will file for D. I am AMOAFWL and had a timeline in dealing with her and hoping she would wake up. I deserve better and to be loved. My kids deserve to see what it's like to be in a loving relationship. I will not let my kids see that it is acceptable to be repeatedly disrespected by a S that has been given so many opportunities to end her A's and work on the MR. It is up to her to do the right thing.

[curtis7]

I should add that WW sent me a text after I left her house last night supporting what she is feeling in her brain from the PAs which has completely consumed her decision making.

W: If it was just you being a dork for most of our marriage, it would be fine, I could work through that. But the sex wasn't good for me.
H: Thanks for sharing.
W: Or I should say we together didn't have good sex. Takes two. Dynamic wasn't there, that's why I read all those books...lots of books.

I did not reply.

[IHCLACS]

Do you know what the real reason is why she said that?

[curtis7]

Do you know what the real reason is why she said that?

I don’t know, she didn’t feel loved by me, didn’t feel respected, I was controlling, she’s depressed and feels she’s missed out on things in life. Could be one of these, a combination, or something entirely else.

She just dropped off the kids and found her clothes in the garage. She started packing and said the following:
W: Thanks for taking everything from me that I ever wanted.
H: This is not what I wanted and it was your choice.
W: This was all my dream except for the house design. From the barn to the fences to the landscaping to the decor to the color selection and now I can’t have it because I don’t want it with you. I never felt like it was mine and I had to earn it. (She had tears in her eyes)
H: I’m sorry you feel that way.
W: Don’t contact me unless it’s about the kids.
H: Likewise (I turned and left the garage.

First time I’ve seen her cry since BD. More of the same behavior, all about her selfishness and vilifying me as the reason for her loss and unhappiness.