180 Counterproductive?

[sandi2]

She recognizes this and says she "cant give me reassurances" and that she is "suffocating and needs space". I was mostly keeping it cool for a couple of months, but in March I had a bad few days, fell apart with anxiety and insecurity

The best advice I could give you from the viewpoint of a recovered wayward W, is to give her all the space she wants.....and then give some more. You must turn lose of the emotional rope you've tied to her. Find yourself without her. Don't depend on her to make you feel secure, or like a confident man, b/c it won't happen. You can't depend on what she says or does. Not at this time. She has lost respect for you b/c you won't lead and/or stand up to her like a man. You let her say/do things that have a hint (or maybe more) of disrespect for you. You probably try to cover for her, blame yourself, reason, etc. Maybe she even bullies a little bit, has a sense of entitlement, and/or a strong personality. You suffocate her with your constant presence (in person or by texting), always needing that reassurance from her. Needing to hear from her while at work, see what she's doing, where, when, how.......all the details. I really hate to hear about your anxiety issues. Are you seeking help for it?

Here's the thing. When a man has a WW, he has to show strength.......if he ever wants her back. By strength, I'm talking alpha male who does not accept disrespect from his W. The foundation of waywardness is disrespect. So for now, you focus on getting yourself stronger & grow bigger b@lls (nothing personal, it's my message to all who have a wayward W). You don't have to be mean, hateful, vindictive, cold, etc. But you have to be firm. You have to set boundaries. Know your own value. Know your life principles/standards. Don't compromise your integrity. And.....don't act on fear.

In the background, I'm 95% sure there is an EA with a coworker that probably got hot in December. When asked, this was denied and blame shifting seems to occur. I don't want to snoop and be consumed with it, but any space I create, he is just going to fill.

Read this about the mindset of the wayward W: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1

How do I balance "I want to work on it" and some affection and normalcy before I started to withdraw myself with the now very cold feeling now that I'm withdrawing?

For now, you can't balance it, b/c she is wayward. You are finding yourself in the fix it mode. Your anxiety is causing you to feel the fear of abandonment, etc. I want to help you by sharing common things about wayward W's. It will be hard to digest, but at least you'll have a better idea of what you are dealing with. If you will start with the link I gave, it will lead you to other threads that discuss the key points of the wayward W.

For now, you need to forget about tenderness and affection. WW's are manipulative, cold, and extremely selfish. They will check your emotional attachment, as a way to keep you in the palm of their hand. You must not let any show of niceness, tenderness, or affection from your W mislead you into believing everything is good and back on track. She will hurt you afresh, if you don't keep your head clear. We will help, if you will post daily. In the meantime, don't say or make any grand decisions without at least running by the board and waiting two or three days to think it out (if possible).
Oh, and don't repeat to her what you read on the board, unless specifically told something to say.

Is 180 overkill right now if at least on the surface she seems to want to fix things? When last asked if she's ready to just end it, she said "no we are not ending anything" but she feels checked out since I started 180.

180 overkill is when the H is trying to correct everything on his W's complaint list. However, he doesn't know how to keep things balanced. For example if she complained that he doesn't help out around the house, instead of helping.....he starts doing it all, leaving her with nothing to do. That's not balanced and it's not the point of 180's. See what I mean? And overdoing on an 180 does not cause her to appreciate him more. In fact, it can have the opposite effect on a wayward W. He tries to fix the MR by going into overdrive, convincing her he has changed. But it becomes all about pleasing/impressing her, and some men fall into subservient behavior. The problem is that he believes this will fix the relationship. When the W is wayward, he could check off every little complaint on her list......but it would not cause her to have loving, affectionate feelings for him. His focus has to be on respect and how to get back his male backbone. She has lost respect for him as a man, and as her H. In order for her to feel desire for him as a man/husband, she has to feel respect. That's how she is wired. BTW, I suggest you not ask her anymore if "we are ending anything".

To be clear, I am not saying to not have 180's. I'm saying the 180's you probably need to do falls under the heading of nice guy syndrome and/or co-dependency. Most newcomer H's think 180's mean to start doing more housework. I've never seen that work with a WW! I've been studying this wayward business for twelve years and I've never seen a WW stay with her H b/c he started doing more around the house. And yet, nearly every WW will put that very topic close to the top of her complaint list. Should a working man help his working W around the house? Sure, but my point is that has nothing.....NOTHING to do with her real issue. She submits this list of complaints to cover up the real problem. It's about loss of respect in him as a man.

[oops13]

Thanks to both of you, this got my head straight. Feeling good at the moment, GAL was great today, and also bought and read a large portion of DR. Currently I don't really even want to be around her. I'm keeping pleasant, but definitely would rather do my own thing than sit around and dote on someone who doesn't reciprocate or respect me.

[oops13]

After some sleep and thinking I realize I might still be doing detachment wrong and still being distant. I'm not...fun or bubbly and I will always lose that competition with the OM if I'm doing what I'm doing now. I'm not bad or anything, but hes *fun* and I'm not at that level right now.

I basically spent all day away from the house when yesterday was a huge event for her, but it's the culmination of something she trained for with the OM so I just spent the entire day doing my own thing and congratulated her, but I know it's not something she really wanted to share with me anyways. But in some ways I feel like "my crummy always-indifferent husband wasn't around or excited after my big achievement" is a viable complaint here. For most of the relationship I was the aloof partner and neglected her in some ways to focus on what I thought were the foundational things. Part of her complaints with the relationship months ago were that she felt alone and I didn't love her and help. Not sure how to 180 on some of those without chasing. Trying to temper the house work to where its fair.

I feel like we're toast. I feel better when I'm out and about and away from her. Maybe a bad combo. I need to figure out how to be fun around her since I know the other guy has me beat there in spades. I'm trying to be fine with whatever happens, though. The EA is not out in the open either. It's still just in the phase where I asked about it, she denied.

This might sound odd as well, but I need to actively look for ways to display my backbone, it seems like. I am considering setting boundaries with my family. If she wants this distance/fake separation, then I'd rather go alone when I have family events. I know this will go over like a lead balloon, but can't decide if it's the right thing to do, or overkill. I'm also going to start separating my finances, and tell her that I think going on vacation together is a bad idea at this time.

All this is just venting. I need to tighten up and be more fun and not distant - but detached.

[oops13]

Sandi, perhaps this is a dumb question, but if she says "I love you" first, should I say "I love you too" ?

I think so, but I didn't 3x yesterday because I think I was adhering to the "rules" incorrectly. Regret it a bit today.

[sandi2]

It seems detaching is the most difficult for newcomers to grasp.....much less actually doing it. I have a favorite copy of a much shorter definition/example of detaching. I'm going to paste it below.

****************************************************************************************************

Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.

[oops13]

This morning, after my earlier posts, I felt like being gone ALL DAY yesterday might have been too cold. When I got up, I was making coffee, so I asked if she wanted some and she did, so I brought her a cup casually (since I was doing it anyways) and I gave her a kiss on the forehead and she smiled real big. Worked on some stuff around the house. She was getting ready to leave, and I had errands to run, so I went to the bathroom, told her I was heading out, and she said ILY and gave me a face-to-chest hug. I told her I loved her too...then I went to run some errands. Heading out to GAL again today, but might take my foot off the gas just a little with that. If I wanted to, I could not be home at all for days. I have a lot of friends, family, hobbies, and interests. I should have some contact with her. I've been in a good mood at least when I see her. Not perfect, but not bad.

That detachment definition leaves some room for caring about her in a masculine way. If I can love on her some but stay "alpha" I think I'll be much happier. I made sure to keep this in mind today when I brought her coffee. I do need to stop hanging onto fluctuations. The not trusting words things is leading me to not believe ILY of course, too.

Shes at church now, which is kind of a new thing, which was one of the things she cited in our ILYBINILWY talk at the beginning of the year. I offered to go, but since she knows I'm apostate she says it makes her uncomfortable. Way back when, she always told me repeatedly it didn't matter. Suddenly it does when she meets her EA/EA-lite person who has so much in common with her that I don't (but things I'd work on if given the chance).

What I have in my head (but shouldn't, but am trying to understand) is if this is a hybrid WAW-WW thing. The guy she's into IMO would not risk his wife/life/career on this. I'm sure hes enjoying it, and maybe they've crossed more lines than I have evidence of, but I also wonder if she sees him as a "template" of someone she wants, not necessarily him, and shut me out for that fantasy - someone like him, but not him, but that might just be me over-analyzing. Maybe it's a one-way or a crush. He's definitely stoking the fire, and I bet he's at minimum trying to cause trouble in the marriage even if he's just "too good of a friend". She's definitely into him or the idea of him of course. Just wonder where she thinks this is going.

[sandi2]

She keeps saying "I love you" without me saying it first when leaving the house, I'd been saying "I love you too" but I didn't today. She said it 3 times in 5 minutes. If only there was any other sign that she wasn't just stringing me along!

Well if she said it three times in five minutes, she was noticing you weren't replying and she was trying to get a response.......would be my guess. Don't get obsessed over small stuff. Just say something like, "Yeah, you too", and move on. The point or rule is for you to not initiate the ILY's b/c it is pressure to her. But if she throws it your way while going out, don't make a big deal about it, and throw it back. At least until we have more details. Are you suppose to be in-house separated? I don't recommend you agreeing to that setup, but that's just me. I've not seen successful IHS.

The relationship history rewriting is really disappointing too now that I see the holes left behind where she used to obviously love me. That's the worst part. She did love me and was attracted to me even though she says she isn't or maybe never was. Limerence and the history rewrite are driving us into the ground.

No, it's driving YOU into the ground. You've just gotten started and have a long way to go yet. One of the first things you have to work on is letting this stuff go, or it will drive you crazy. Yes, she is rewriting history, but you know the original form and there is no point in arguing and trying to convince her that she has it wrong. It's a waste of time. Yes, she loved you, and probably will again......if you learn a few things. But here's the thing, it's not going to happen today. You have much more important things to deal with, so don't get hung up over this. I don't mean to sound insensitive. I'm just saying you've got to lay this aside and focus on the things we will be telling you.

After some sleep and thinking I realize I might still be doing detachment wrong and still being distant. I'm not...fun or bubbly and I will always lose that competition with the OM if I'm doing what I'm doing now. I'm not bad or anything, but hes *fun* and I'm not at that level right now.

A "bubbly" man? um.....no.....especially if that is not your personality. What is your personality type?

Don't get your focus on OM and comparing yourself to him. Do you know this OM personally?

For most of the relationship I was the aloof partner and neglected her in some ways to focus on what I thought were the foundational things. Part of her complaints with the relationship months ago were that she felt alone and I didn't love her and help. Not sure how to 180 on some of those without chasing.

So, set me straight, b/c she has said you were suffocating her. How can you be aloof and suffocate her?
Did the suffocation result from you trying to 180 on her complaints? If so, then here's the problem. If she were not wayward, it might be simple to resolve. You would just start showing her more attention, spend quality time with her, have date nights, etc. However, once she is wayward, her heart has changed and she doesn't want those things. Her heart has closed to you and opened to another man. Therefore, if you try to spend time with her, be romantic, or whatever......she feels as if you are sucking up the air in the room. I know, b/c I felt the same way toward my H. It got really bad when I entered the rebellion stage of waywardness. By then, I had OM in my head, and I couldn't stand for my H to get near me. Once I ended my EA and worked on myself, the coldness left and loving feelings returned. ((hugs))

Okay, so for now you won't be able to address some of her complaints, b/c she doesn't want it now. And b/c she doesn't want to work on her MR, you won't be able to be the type of H you'd like to be in every way. DBing is as much about what you don't do, as it is about what you do.

This might sound odd as well, but I need to actively look for ways to display my backbone, it seems like.

I would suggest you start by physically standing & walking tall with your back straight. Hold you head up and shoulders back. You said you were in good shape, so this will help you look strong and confident. Don't slouch, hand your head, shuffle your feet, or wring your hands. IMHO, a man shows that he has a backbone when he won't allow someone else to disrespect him, without consequences. He is not going to stand around and be bullied. If he has a family, then he is their protector and leader. He steps up and is decisive instead of being passive. He doesn't cow down to his W and become a "yes, dear" type of guy. He doesn't cry in front of his W and kids. He does it in private. He is the picture of strength, not just physically, but in his behavior/actions. He does not compromise his integrity.

I am considering setting boundaries with my family. If she wants this distance/fake separation, then I'd rather go alone when I have family events. I know this will go over like a lead balloon, but can't decide if it's the right thing to do, or overkill.

Don't agree to a "fake" separation, where she wants to keep it a secret. That is the worst kind! Plus, it is the epitome of cake eating on her part. Not sure I understand what you mean by setting boundaries with your family. Can you explain more?

I'm also going to start separating my finances, and tell her that I think going on vacation together is a bad idea at this time.

When is the vacation scheduled?

[SteveLW]

Oops, cold is something you do when you're around her. Being gone all day yesterday is what you should be doing! That's called GAL. Be proud because most newbies do not do GAL very well. So no being gone all day yesterday was not too much. After all she asked for more space, right?

Look newcomers always thing they should be doing something. DBing is more about NOT doing things, especially the wrong things.

[oops13]

Thanks! She has said no to separation when its been brought up in MC. She tells me she doesnt want to, at least.

The vacation is planned for next month. She brought it up but said she wanted to "not talk about us" but since its planned to be overseas it seems like a bad idea to me in some ways. She initially had the idea a few weeks ago, then once I had the clinginess attack she reneged on it. The suffocation is definitely from my trying to start doing everything well and checking in on things before i had any idea what i was doing. Cried once, etc.

She had valid complaints with me from before all this in that I was stoic, aloof, not affectionate enough, weak, and most of all just a grumpy miserable person. I own that.

[oops13]

Oh also yes I know the guy and see him a few times a week. Theyve definitely gotten too close and shes hiding the depth of her activity with him.