180 Counterproductive?

[oops13]

I've settled on killing the vacation if it's going to be as friends. I'm just trying to decide if I should bring it up myself. I guess I'll have to.

GAL is excellent.
Detachment is bad because I'm ruminating and second guessing.
180s strong.

Talking to OM isn't what it sounds like. We just talked in the hallway about work and other random things. Not "talking to him" in the confrontation sense. I haven't let on that I know a thing to him, and I don't think she knows that I know either.

I guess I'd put it like this: I know she isn't trying to save our marriage in earnest because she's investing more into the OM. She doesn't know I know this, though. The picture she has painted was that she is trying through IC, and that OM is not a problem, and that she "wants us to work". For me to come out and say that I know that she isn't trying, and I'm killing the vacation if it's not an earnest attempt at reconciliation will beg the question of why I'm tearing through the myth she's constructing for me. I assume I should be short with words like you just put in your previous post. I did that in fact more or less yesterday, and then she said she "felt so distant and wants to work on it" and kind of duped me into considering it. I'm not good on my toes yet and this stuff always hits me the next day. I think in the moment I figured it would provide an opportunity for me to Be Attractive.

I need to focus on building respect. Confrontation with her is probably a good thing if I do it right.

[oops13]

Ran into her unexpectedly which turned into an R talk that I didn't even want when she asked about vacation. I learned some things, but it certainly wasn't worth it.

I have a horrible feeling about her IC. It seems like her IC is almost trying to split us up and she's never even met me. Shes suggested separation and has apparently encouraged her to consider moving out. W says she has resisted this because she wants us to make it and have a good marriage. She said she's looking for a new job and is trying to avoid OM because I brought him up before, and it's making her paranoid being around him and working with me. She keeps insisting shes "trying". This built up into her head as an ultimatum to "move out or be a wife" and I said no, that's not the case, I didn't want her to move out and I definitely don't expect her to be a perfect wife or anything close to it right now. I told her I simply felt like I was the only one who wanted the marriage. She said that she does want it and is doing her best but said her mental health issues allow no room for stress right now. I was calm and maintained composure at least. I could tell she shut down by the end of it.

I kept my composure and didnt beg or anything, but I didn't even want to have this talk, it was my responsibility to prevent it and I failed. Ready for my 2x4s. This is even worse if she's really that stressed out. I just really have no idea what I'm dealing with here. Even without my own stupid mistakes.

[ovrrnbw]

You're dealing with a cheater who you are emotionally attached to. The more you work on detachment the more you will be able to remain strong, aware, and present in the moment when she throws her BS at you. The more you work on detachment the better you will become at ceasing your enabling behavior.

You look at her as if you have everything to lose. When you start seeing that you can be fine without her and it shows in your attitude and actions than you will see that there's nothing to lose and that the fear was all in your head.

You want respect? Look her straight in eye and tell her you know what she's up to and that she needs to gtfo. Then leave. Tough to do, I know.

[SteveLW]

Believe nothing she says. Is IC really saying that? Or is she blaming the IC for this?

[Ready2Change]

You want respect? Look her straight in eye and tell her you know what she's up to and that she needs to gtfo. Then leave. Tough to do, I know.

This works.

Do not reveal what you know, or how you know. Just that you do know.

"We both know what you have been doing"
"We both know that is not true"
"I am not stupid"
"I am no longer going to listen to your lies"

[oops13]

I guess I just wonder if I have the wrong idea before I dig in like that!

[oops13]

Back on the horse on the surface. We agreed to go to our corners and relax and back to normal tonight.

Going to read more about validation and NOT ENGAGE IN R TALKS ANYMORE.

[oops13]

Survived the night and now at work, hopefully the damage from yesterday's mistakes was minimal.

During the R talk, the subject of effort came up. I'd mentioned that the reason I didn't want to do the joint vacation was because of the state of the relationship, she probed, and I cited that I didn't want to go as just friends, and it turned into me explaining that I know she's putting effort into someone else, and she also asked about distance to which I responded "for example you sleep as far as possible from me and don't wear your engagement ring anymore." I know these things were mistakes, and the whole planned conversation I had that got derailed was a mistake.

But last night I got home after she asked what I wanted from the grocery store and she had her ring on, and we were pleasant with each other, even a couple of jokes. When we got in bed she cuddled up against me and I was already mostly asleep, so we ended up spooning.

I woke up this morning and we were talking about how we slept so (maybe mistake) I mentioned that she was cuddly last night. She then said "well after you lectured me yesterday I figured I'd give it a shot". I calmly told her that if I gave her the impression that I wanted her to do anything she didn't want to do, that that was not my intent, and that I understand she needs to figure things out without that kind of pressure. I then went to do some other things around the house, walk the dog, etc. She said she loved me in a happy way before she left and gave me a hug.

She also seems to now want to go on vacation as two people who are trying, but I've maintained that we don't have to go together, but she insists she prefers to go together. I'm not going to press on this anymore, last thing I want is an R talk, and I'd rather go and be cool than get into more bad talks. I really see no rational reason why she'd prefer for me to go unless shes trying to keep me on the back burner strongly.

So many mistakes still, but I'm learning I hope. I just need to stop them in real-time and not the next day. And I need to realized that everything I just saw and heard could mean absolutely nothing. I really hate having R talks myself now. I had a much better experience the other night when she was talking and I knew to sit and listen /validate and not say any more than necessary. Until yesterday, I made it a good run without one and it's much more pleasant. Instead of not starting them, I'm going to start loosely avoiding them if a situation like yesterday comes up again. Most importantly, I've got to stop overthinking and fixating. I have to get back into my own head somehow.

[SteveLW]

oops, just be aware that all of this might be manipulation attempts. To get the vacation.

Your mistake as not listening and validating. That is what you should do when she starts an R talk. Listen. Use validating statements. If she pushes for anything deeper, you need to tell her "I need time to process everything. This is a lot to consider."

The ring. The cuddling. She has something she wants (vacation) and is manipulating you. I would tell her next time the vacation comes up: "I feel we should postpone it for now. We can always schedule it for later."

[oops13]

I can't help but wonder why she wants to go together when I've been fine with her going alone.

From looking at your thread, Steve, it seemed at first you kind of tried to buck the idea that yours was anything but cookie cutter WW. I think I'm in a similar boat, I don't want to think of it as cookie cutter because there is plausible deniability w.r.t the EA, and it's also plausible that she actually is trying through going to IC and given that she's insisted that she wants the marriage and wants to fix it. The IC saying (supposedly) that she's not ready for couples counseling yet because of her mental state is also a confounding factor. Her insistence that she does not want to separate or move out is a confounding factor.

I guess I keep coming back to this: what if this is honest and above board for the most part, and the vacation is an earnest attempt to connect away from the stresses of work and home? I've not resisted a bit each time separate vacation comes up, but she refuses to take it.

I'm also hesitant to be so wishy-washy about the vacation. A few weeks ago, we both wanted it. She talked to her IC about it. IC green-lighted so long as it's not stressful. I hate to keep changing my message. If I'm honest with myself, I do want to go with her as long as there's not some "just friends" label. I just can't be assured that she's being honest with me because all I have is words, and I'm trying to be aware of the fact that I'm looking for hope, that maybe she's trying to break out of the fog. Maybe shes wrestling with it because there is no way the OM is viable from what I can tell. I think its just a flirt/fantasy thing so far even at 6 months.

Shes had the opportunity to spring for separation, for moving out, never brought up divorce, and has never said shes considering those things unless it's under the IC-mentioning-it umbrella. So either it's more illusion and she's using IC as an excuse, or she really wants to try. it all comes back to two things for me though: ILYBINILWY, and "attractive but not attracted to you" which I guess goes back to respect as a man. Which makes me think maybe the rest of this just doesn't matter.

How do you know when they really are being honest that they want to try, anyways? Do they want to try before they are back "ILWY" ? 'is it tepid at first?