Persistent Endurance (Part 3)

[sandi2]

Can you give some examples of the validation you gave her?

I’m struggling with how to come off as bright, cheery, and upbeat around the woman that is actively cheating on me. I’m able to pull it off often, but I fail to do it consistently and she knows me well enough to sense my mood when I’m unable.

If you have the mindset that you need to be bright and cheery to impress her feelings about you, then I think it could come across as a little fake to her. If you feel good about yourself and accomplishing some goals that have nothing to do with her, then maybe it won't be such a struggle. Feeling good about yourself is one of the reasons we promote GAL, working out, eating healthily, setting goals, etc.

Your life, your behavior/actions cannot be all about her. You cannot get good enough that will impress the WW to save the MR. Not after she's crossed the affair line. When all is said & done, it doesn't matter how much you clean house or cater to her needs.......it won't change her heart. That's the trouble with some marriage books/programs out there on the market. They are trying to sell the idea that if you start showing her how much you care and basically try to do the things you should have done long before her heart turned cold, then it will draw her back. The reason it doesn't work, is b/c she has to respect him before her heart changes. Lack of respect is the heart of waywardness. And, before he can get her respect, he has to have a healthy dose of self-respect.

The saying that gets passed around the board......"Be a man only a fool would leave".......is misunderstood by a lot of H's who have a wayward W. I googled the definition of fool, and here's the results: (as a noun) a person who acts unwisely or imprudently; a silly person. (as a verb) trick or deceive (someone); dupe. (as an adjective) foolish; silly.

So.....either way you look at it, the WW seems to fit the description of a fool.

[curtis7]

Can you give some examples of the validation you gave her?

Hi Sandi! Here are a few examples:

W: "I feel we need a set schedule so the kids have a sense of normalcy, know what to expect, AND so that they don't start thinking they run the show. I would like both of us to be able to see the kids every day when humanly possible.
H: "I can see that a schedule needs to be set for the kids for the reasons you noted. We should make sure they have time with both of us because they need that."

W: "This week was not normal with moving and such. I'm open to suggestions and changes...this is just tentative to help get through the first few weeks. Possible that once the 'newness' of my place wears off for kids, this may all go out the window and we revert to the January plan or a totally different plan. Again, we need to keep an open dialogue.
H: "It must have been a really hectic and stressful week for you with the move. It sounds like the kids are excited by the newness. I will need some more time to process the schedule."

Here is another one regarding a conversation about her divorced BFF that really seemed to grind her gears:
W: "Divorced BFF's XH still hasn't removed her name from the mortgage, he was supposed to do that by February. BFF had her L send XH a letter demanding that he start the process within 10 days. XH sent a letter to their daughter's school the next day informing them that the girls were being moved to a closer school next week. This means that BFF won't see her girls everyday because she teaches at the school where they have been going. I don't know why he would move them this close to the end of the school year. XH is only changing schools to get revenge for BFF having the L send the letter."
H: "That must be very difficult for BFF to deal with. I can understand how her XH sending the letter to the school the next day could seem like a way to get back at her."
W: "Oh, don't be so diplomatic LBH."
W: "I hope that no matter what happens between us that we don't use the kids as retaliation."
H: "I just want what's best for the kids."
W: "I agree."

If you have the mindset that you need to be bright and cheery to impress her feelings about you, then I think it could come across as a little fake to her. If you feel good about yourself and accomplishing some goals that have nothing to do with her, then maybe it won't be such a struggle. Feeling good about yourself is one of the reasons we promote GAL, working out, eating healthily, setting goals, etc.

I feel I need to be bright and cheery to follow some of your rules and recommendations of other vets when interacting with WW:
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times!
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment.

I do feel good about myself most of the time. I am active with friends several times a week playing volleyball, coaching little league baseball, working out, going back to church, spending time with neighbors. Also, working on projects around the house that I've put off. However, sometimes my good feelings go away due to a feeling of overwhelming disgust around her and the absolute selfishness that she demonstrates. This may be similar to how she felt/feels about me prior to BD when she felt emotionally neglected and post BD when I was pursuing and pressuring her. I really need to focus on eliminating these slip ups and remaining positive because I know they are not attractive.

Your life, your behavior/actions cannot be all about her. You cannot get good enough that will impress the WW to save the MR. Not after she's crossed the affair line. When all is said & done, it doesn't matter how much you clean house or cater to her needs.......it won't change her heart. That's the trouble with some marriage books/programs out there on the market. They are trying to sell the idea that if you start showing her how much you care and basically try to do the things you should have done long before her heart turned cold, then it will draw her back. The reason it doesn't work, is b/c she has to respect him before her heart changes. Lack of respect is the heart of waywardness. And, before he can get her respect, he has to have a healthy dose of self-respect.

Yes, the fundamental problem is that she doesn't respect me right now. Her words and actions show the lack of respect. I'm beginning to accept that some good tough love is needed to regain self-respect and have any chance of respect from her in the future.

The saying that gets passed around the board......"Be a man only a fool would leave".......is misunderstood by a lot of H's who have a wayward W. I googled the definition of fool, and here's the results: (as a noun) a person who acts unwisely or imprudently; a silly person. (as a verb) trick or deceive (someone); dupe. (as an adjective) foolish; silly.

So.....either way you look at it, the WW seems to fit the description of a fool.

Lol, very interesting!! I never thought about it that way. I always assumed that my W couldn't be a fool. Although, when considering the choices she's made, the definition seems to fit.

[curtis7]

What does rock bottom look like?

Rock bottom is when she keeps getting played by these young pick-up artists and other men and she starts to:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Curtis, I am not going to blow smoke up your A$$. Your W is the lowest of the lows when it comes to WW wives. This is really going to take a long time and I really think you need to think about if this is a marriage worth saving.

Rock bottom is when she is begging you take her back.

LH & R2C, good reality check. I can appreciate why this could take years to play out if ever. She has not shown any signs of remorse and continues to move deeper into WW with an utter lack of respect for me.

I am contemplating if I want to live in limbo for years and the effect that has on my own personal happiness and impact on my children. I do have a timeline in mind if there is no positive improvement in the R and I’m not willing to be a martyr indefinitely.

[SteveLW]

What does rock bottom look like?

Rock bottom is when she keeps getting played by these young pick-up artists and other men and she starts to:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Curtis, I am not going to blow smoke up your A$$. Your W is the lowest of the lows when it comes to WW wives. This is really going to take a long time and I really think you need to think about if this is a marriage worth saving.

Rock bottom is when she is begging you take her back.

LH & R2C, good reality check. I can appreciate why this could take years to play out if ever. She has not shown any signs of remorse and continues to move deeper into WW with an utter lack of respect for me.

I am contemplating if I want to live in limbo for years and the effect that has on my own personal happiness and impact on my children. I do have a timeline in mind if there is no positive improvement in the R and I’m not willing to be a martyr indefinitely.

I just mentioned in OrangeK's thread an ex-GF that strung me along for 2 decades. When I look back and think of all of the great women that I passed up on waiting for her I sometimes wonder how my life could have been different if I would have received help for the unresolved feelings and emotions and moved on sooner. curtis I can't remember if you are in IC. If so, great. If not, get into it ASAP. It can help you sort out what you want and not be on the hook waiting for her longer than you should.

[curtis7]

I know detachment is the answer, but implementing this during an active A is a challenge.

For most people an A makes detachment easier. Do you really want to be attached to someone that doesn't love you and is actively engaging in an A?

Sadly, and as much as I despise her choices, I do. The LBS still loves the WAS and can’t flip a switch to turn that off, but instead chooses to love from a distance that doesn’t apply pressure. I think that’s why so many LBS hold on to the hope that the A will end at some point and the connection can be rebuilt rather than taking the easy path of throwing in the towel and rushing into D. The LBS spends an exorbitant amount of time improving themselves, reading self-help, and learning how to strive for perfection in MR that we see how great the R could be if only given the chance. The LBS chooses to live in limbo and sacrifice some personal gratification (sex, intimacy, emotional support, reciprocated love, etc) while hoping and praying that the WAS wakes up and comes out of the fog. Every LBS should be commended for enduring this pain and standing for their MR. We didn’t ask for this and no one deserves this, but we must acknowledge that we did play a role in getting to this point. We must keep focused on the long term goal and vision of a happy and mutually fulfilling MR and focus on the changes we need to make in ourselves to become a spouse only a fool would leave.

[SteveLW]

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. This is what you should be doing

The way we like to tell LBSs to handle this is to move forward by GAL, working on improvements (IC, 180s), and detach. If she gets her crap together before you've completely moved on, great. If she hasn't, then she'll regret that she didn't come to her sense sooner. Either way, YOU are back in charge of whether or not your MR is saved, not her. Taking back power can be very freeing. And it is a position of strength.

Strength is moving on with or without her.
Weakness is holding on as tight as you can hoping she comes around.

[sandi2]

Thanks for your detailed examples of validation. I think one trick is to not basically repeat the same one every time, or sound like a yes man.

H: "That must be very difficult for BFF to deal with. I can understand how her XH sending the letter to the school the next day could seem like a way to get back at her."
W: "Oh, don't be so diplomatic LBH."

Her response was her telling you that she only needed you to listen to her vent. It's not necessary to reply to every time.

I feel I need to be bright and cheery to follow some of your rules and recommendations of other vets when interacting with WW:

Good! One of the most common questions is, "How do I interact with my WW". It is a method of interacting with her.
All these rules are meant to give some direction for the newcomer when they first arrive.

However, sometimes my good feelings go away due to a feeling of overwhelming disgust around her and the absolute selfishness that she demonstrates. This may be similar to how she felt/feels about me prior to BD when she felt emotionally neglected and post BD when I was pursuing and pressuring her. I really need to focus on eliminating these slip ups and remaining positive because I know they are not attractive.

You guys can't figure women out when they are "normal", much less when they turn wayward. You are right about pursuit not being attractive, especially when the other person wants out. You can have a positive mental attitude about yourself, and life in general.....without pressuring those who don't want to be with you. ((hugs))

[LH19]

C,

You are correct to some extent but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself if you deserve to be treated this way.

Your first step should be to get some respect back from your W. Table the half hearted validation for now and let her know that it is rude to text “anybody” while at your house and she cannot come and visit her horse anytime she feels like it. I would also give her a time line to get her horse out of there or start charging board for the horse.

She will fight you on it but she will also respect you for standing up to her.

[SteveLW]

C,

You are correct to some extent but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself if you deserve to be treated this way.

Your first step should be to get some respect back from your W. Table the half hearted validation for now and let her know that it is rude to text “anybody” while at your house and she cannot come and visit her horse anytime she feels like it. I would also give her a time line to get her horse out of there or start charging board for the horse.

She will fight you on it but she will also respect you for standing up to her.

LH is making an awesome point. The mistake LBSs make, almost every time, is thinking they can nice their WAS back. You cannot. Being nice will have her view you as weak. Manipulable. Spineless.

One way to think about this that has helped some LBSs is this: if you were dating this person, would you tolerate this behavior? Why would your standards be any lower because you' are married to them?

[curtis7]

Huge update...expected outcome.

So, I had the "I will NOT live in an open marriage" talk with WW tonight. She spewed rage, tried to interrupt several times and said I better go talk to my L. Here are the details.

My S8 was with her today after his baseball game and he talked to me when she came over to take care of her horse. I asked what he did today, and he said, well mostly watched TV. I asked, didn't mommy play with you and he said she was texting the whole time. Then he told me the name and it was OM2. WW told my S8 that it was the friend of a co-worker which is a lie. This is where I draw the line, when she starts lying to my kids about her PAs and covering up her infidelity, it is complete disrespect to my family.

I spent the rest of the night contemplating what action to take. I knew this talk was coming, but I was planning on waiting until either the end of this month or the end of next month so she could see more of my 180s and GAL. However, it was time for me to take back my respect. Over the past month, I have read NMMNG and the Tough Love book as well as countless sitches and posts on scripts (Starsky, Puppy Dog Tails, AllenA, Robx, R2C, Sandi2, Wonka, Txhubby, etc) for setting this boundary and I was confident this was something I needed to do for myself and my dignity.

I'll have to admit, I didn't have long to rehearse the script, but it was imperative that I take action as she was about to send me an email on taking the next steps to divide assets before seeing an attorney.

I went to her house and knocked on the door late in the evening after the kids went to sleep. Here is the exchange:

W: What's going on?
H: Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something S8 told me today. S8 said you were texting all afternoon with some guy named OM2.
W: No, I wasn't.
H: I'm just telling you what S8 said. The deceit has got to stop. When you lie to our children, it is disrespectful to our family, and that is where I draw the line. I've tolerated this intolerable behavior for 6 months and I will not tolerate it any longer when you lie to our children. The first 4 months were pure hell for me, but over the past 2 months I've recovered and I'm in a much better place and I like the direction I'm headed and our kids like it too. I still love you and want to work on this marriage, but I will not be a part of it when you are engaged in affairs with OM. Let's be clear about one thing, this separation was not about you having space, it was about having affairs. You made the choice to have affairs over marriage and family and will have to live with the consequences.
W: You don't know what you're talking about, there is nothing going on.
H: Please stop, we both know you're lying right now, please let me finish. I know you're having an affair with OM2, it's disrespectful to me, our marriage, and our family.
W: You don't know anything, there's nothing going on with OM2.
H: Stop, we both know your lying (holding my hand up while looking her dead in the eyes).
H: I will NOT live in an open marriage. Looks like we both have some big decisions to make.
W: We can get a divorce, I was ready to send you an email today to start dividing everything.
H: I know our marriage wasn't satisfactory for you or me. I accept my responsibility for half of that and am sorry it hurt you. The other half followed by the affairs are all on you. Marital problems need to be met with solutions, not lies and cheating. Your choice to continue cheating and make things worse and destroy our family or end the cheating and make things better and help our family.
W: You can't come to my house unannounced. Now, get out!
H: You need to think long and hard about the impact of your choices on our children. Do you think children are resilient?
W: Ours can be if we parent effectively.
H: Yes, some children are resilient, but ours don't have that choice, you are making it for them.
W: Get out and go to talk to your L!

I walked out and left.

I was extremely calm and confident throughout, while she was increasingly angered and filled with rage. I did not let it rattle me or affect my emotions. I am ready to accept and do not fear what follows. Now we'll see what develops over the coming days and weeks.

Some may feel I acted in haste, but with one OM after another with no end in sight, I felt compelled to take a stand.