U, You are kinda all over the board right now and being new I think your under the impression that there is a magic bullet that is going to save your marriage. Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.
Thanks LH. You are right I am a basket case.
I would love a magic bullet! But I know that doesn't exist. I guess I'm struggling with the paradoxical thinking here that you have to let go of expectations of your M, in order to have a chance to repair your M. It feels very Zen. I realize no matter what I do, the M may be gone, and I need to accept that.
Originally Posted by LH19
Just from reading your last couple posts I can tell your number one problem is your wife doesn’t respect you. If she doesn’t respect you she will not love you in the way your looking from your wife.
You send her a photo and she criticizes the angle. You don’t apologize and she doesn’t get pictures anymore. No one will ever say or do anything to you that you don’t allow them to.
Deep breaths, work on yourself and command respect.
Any advice on where to read up on commanding respect (either in these forums or elsewhere)? I admit I struggle with this one.
I would suggest to read the MLC resources here. All of them. They have helped me get a handle on what I'm dealing with and how to go about applying it IRL. Maybe not everything will apply, but it might help you begin to see an MLCers viewpoint, how they think, what their perspective is. That was what was missing for me - once I saw it (kind of) from W's angle, I let go of the outcome and things calmed down (for me)
Thanks I will check these out, and hope they help weather the storm.
I'm having a hard time thinking of this as W's MLC. She has a book about divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder hidden away. Whether or not I have those (I'm pretty sure I don't, as I go to IC and have had this confirmed), it kind of tells me what she's thinking and why she may be so distant (the textbook way to respond to BPD/NPD is to "manage" them in neutral, unemotional ways). She's not having an A, she's still a great affectionate mom with the kids, she doesn't go out and party or have any sudden behavioral changes. She's just more secretive now and distant, and affection is gone.
Thanks I will check these out, and hope they help weather the storm.
I'm having a hard time thinking of this as W's MLC. She has a book about divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder hidden away. Whether or not I have those (I'm pretty sure I don't, as I go to IC and have had this confirmed), it kind of tells me what she's thinking and why she may be so distant (the textbook way to respond to BPD/NPD is to "manage" them in neutral, unemotional ways). She's not having an A, she's still a great affectionate mom with the kids, she doesn't go out and party or have any sudden behavioral changes. She's just more secretive now and distant, and affection is gone.
That last sentence could have described my situation to a T. W actually said to me that she had to "detach" and gave me a laundry list of problems I had.
I did not react.
I listened, validated, and apologized (once, sincerely and calmly) - but only for those problems I knew I had. Told W I was working on them and it would take time.
W was also worried about 25 year in the future- couldn't see us together for that long.
My response:
I'm not thinking about 25 years in the future. I'm thinking about today. When tomorrow happens, I'll worry about tomorrow, then.
This is going to be a long ride and you need to pace yourself and breathe. There is a lot to learn and as time goes on, you pick up on more and more.
I had a gazillion things to respond with but it is a bit much and overbearing. MWD says that it only takes one to make change and it can start with you. You change yourself, you change the dynamic between you and others.
How does that relate?
Example is your W disrespecting you about the video. She disrespects, you say sorry, you tried etc etc. As the man, you need to know when to stand up to your W and get your b@lls back and the way to do it. Not yelling or cursing or threating. You can set a boundary. Read up on Sandi's posts. There are red flags with your W. Being secretive, resentment, disrespect.
You start to stand up for yourself and set your boundaries, it changes the dynamic between you and W.
LH pointed this out immediately and I noticed it too. It has everything to do with respect or lack thereof.
So from your reply to mine, you say you don't blame your W but you do have some resentment towards her. Any way you word it, you have negative energy you need to let go. Right now you're feeling like it's W fault and she is feeling like this is yours. How do you objectively fix this? You don't. Give it time and space. Cool off.
I know sometimes things can be taken to extremes and we can only express so much online where the true meaning of things can get confused with something else. I see deflection right now and I see confusion. You need to understand your W feelings are real to her. That book she has about YOU being narcissistic is real to her. Even though you say your IC cleared you of this, IMO it doesn't help anything between you two. It may make matters worse because now in your head you know its not your fault. There's a thing about being Mister Right all the time, he's not very good with women.
In your posts, there is a lot of struggling with the emotions. Another good book you want to read up on to identify behavior to work on is the NO MORE MR NICE GUY book. You need to drop the fear and stop being afraid. As the man who needs to be the rock, the logical thinking person right now in the relationship you need to stop being too emotional. Think and act. Stop feeling. I know it's hard but you need to do it for yourself. Google, ask here. find ways.
I understand where you are coming from. You want to bust the divorce but feel like it was some sort of click bait. There is no magic bullet, no quick process. There's other programs out there and you wonder which one to follow.
You pick a plan that you think is right and you go all in. This process is counter-intuitive and its hard to grasp in the beginning. What is right doesn't feel right. Letting go for a chance to get back can sound so backwards.
Quote
I'm curious what you did wrong?
Short answer? Everything.
You should be aware that there are root causes to everything and your first MC is your first. Be patient.
You have right to feel the way you do. For now though, we need to set some of those feelings aside. I understand you want W to know how you feel. You want her to see how much pain this is, you feeling neglected.
You say your need for physical intimacy doesn't need apologizing for. Well, do you know your W love language and have you been filling up her love bucket so that is freely reciprocating? I don't think so, so this goes back to YOUR expectation without looking at your inactions.
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What sort of behavioral changes are you making?
This one I had started a list and then it wasn't specific enough. I am more patient. I am more confident. I am not quick tempered. I've been practicing validation with everyone the last 8 months. I am a better listener. I am better at not being passive aggressive. When W says something disrespectful or does something, I act in the moment and say something to address it. And then I move on. My attitude in life has changed. I was more a pessimist and see the error of my ways. I spend ALOT more time with my boys. I am more aware and in the moment. Something that I said could wait for the weekend I don't wait. Who knows if that moment ever comes or not. I am in the present. I live by my morals as a Christian and have re-evaluated how I see things. At work, at home, with friends, I try to empathize and put myself in other people's shoes. I've made effort to wake up with a better mentality. I'm big on if you don't know the answer, you go look for it. Google is your friend. I find peace at being alone. I read a lot more and watch a ton of self help videos. I am not sitting waiting for something to happen. I am moving, working out, doing things.
Between W and I, I don't look at being mister fixer. I don't say this is all her fault or blame her. I lost some of the resentment. I'd rather just know the facts and not let it take me down. There is still some emotion like anger but not the raging beast that was there in the beginning. I am accountable for my own actions and I am humbled. I am learning to live again and I don't like to use the word alpha male but I think about something, make a choice and deal with the consequences. I don't do it for other people or their approval but try to align it with who I am. I'm not trying to be Mister Perfect and at the same time I still want to strive to be a better me. I'm taking back control of who I am. I'm not codependent on W for my happiness. I'm not that needy guy from many months ago, the one that makes me want to throw up thinking about. I lost the fear of losing her, losing control. What makes life exciting is some of the unknown. You either have anxiety from it or excitement. I choose excitement. This is reflective of your outlook on life.
I don't know if all this helps or gives some glimpse or not. I am a work in progress. It's a little over 8 months from BD for me and I know I still have a long way to go. I am patient with myself and take it one day at a time. I still have a hard time sleeping at night but my mind doesn't race about the marriage. I have good sleeps, just not long enough ones.
This is all still so fresh for you, be patient. give yourself time to learn and figure out what to do. Understand that people change, their thoughts and feelings change. What are you doing to help change this in a positive light for yourself and those you care about?
H 49 , W 47 T 23, M 17 S11, S5 BD: 7/18 IHS: 7/18 - 3/19 Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19 Piecing: 4/19 - Current
Unichen and Ironwill. Have you been living in my house? I am in the same exact circumstances as you. My WAW is a behavioral specialist. I found out back in Jan she was having an IA/EA online with Chris Soules from The Bachelor. She was also looking into briefly Child Custody Laws, but gave up on it. I also found emails of hers writing to newspapers article publishers, about me being bi polar, which I am not, have never been, nor never diagnosed for such, despite seeing multiple mental healthcare providers, LSCW's, Psychodiagnostics for learning impairments, Auditory Specialists for learning and hearing impairments, and Neuro Assessment, over the course of our marriage in the last 10 years to assess some of my mild ADD characteristics, and work performance. I started looking into this within our first two months of marriage when I was laid off from my new job for something beyond my control.
W even went as far over the last year to enroll in an emotionally abusive course online. She has also looked into whether I wether bi polar people are eligible for retaining firearms. Being a 2nd amendment supporter, and firearms owner, since discovering all of this, I have moved mine out of the house to someplace safe during IHS. Ironically she is still retaining her firearms, after I advocated she learn how to become proficient with it for 3 years until BD, and now wants to learn how to use it with younger brother's ex GF who is now divorced, whom my WAW is hanging around with ALOT. She even looked into a book called Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone With Boarderline or Narcissistic personality disorder. I have read so much stuff on narcissist empath conflict that for the most part, unless you are malignant on these things, anyone can have small tendencies. But i notice the "relationship script" always victimises and props up the empath who are typically women, but not always
Around Dec I took the initiative to read one of my W's books that she never read called The Emotionally Destructive Marriage by Leslie Vernick. Good book. Gave me a lot of insight to some behaviors I was unawaringly doing. I made a commitment to 180 on a lot of the ones I eventually realized I was doing. After reviewing my Neuro health records from 10 years ago, it was noted that I may have slight characteristics of BPD. So I Iooked into it further, and decided to take action. I am seeing a BPD coach for emotional regulation. It has been helping as a journaling outlet, and changing limiting thought patterns.
Despite my personality being pretty normal, fun, exciting, flamboyant and a little loud and bubbly. Under stress or when emphasising something. I have a tendency to get a little loud, adamant and firm at times. I decided to get introspective not only about some of my own behaviors, my emotional style, temperament, habits, etc.
I can be repeatedly critical of others when their habits and lack of consideration affects my time, organization, and convenience. (I can only say it nice so many times.) I have since stopped that, and just leave wife messes for herself to clean with no more criticism. My temperament is relatively even, with an occasional flare up. As I have detached, gone to therapy and have been introspective, I have been much more emotionally centered. DB principles, validating and therapy has been helping me hold back verbalizing emotions that do not serve a good purpose. I deal with them by writing and journaling the specific side of me, or behavior I am having an issue in getting centered, balanced, and revealing. Its good practice for emotional integration.
I find it amazing and amusing how some sensitive personalities can consider other personalities, just because they are loud and a little flamboyant, to be toxic and abusive, just because one is more openly emotional, and the other is more reserved. I still honestly believe that there are personality types out there that can blend, clash, or accomplish both with couples. Some people have better control over their emotions than others in intimate relationships. My idea of talking loud, maybe someone else's idea of yelling. I have been a little verbally abrasive in the past, but IMHO not abusive. But with the other WAS its all about their perception. There are many other perceptions to me that are quite askew that we don't agree on with related issues as well.
A lot of books on emotional abuse give good insight on behaviors you may or may not be aware you are doing. But I am also going to say this. I believe once a WAS is repulsed by you for whatever reason. (Lack of attraction, didn't pay her enough attention, insert whatever justification.) They will ingest all of this material IMO, feel empowered, validated, and justified in putting a label to their "treatment of victimization" and have us shoulder all the blame for everything in the marriage. Try to be aware if your behaviors that do apply whether intentionally or unintentionally and 180 on them. Be nice, play nice, be firm and assertive, but maintain composure and emotions at all costs. Think Patrick Swayze from Road House. BE NICE Just don't be a doormat.
My W is having an MLT, (Mid Life Transition) doesn't acnowkege or empathize with anyone else's position but her own, doesn't know who she is, where she is going, what she wants to do, how much she wants to make, who she wants to be, how to be happy, or where to live. But apparantly I am to blame for it all. It all literally changes by the week now. Last 7 months she wanted to quit her job because she wasn't happy, and wanted to work from home. Today she tells me she's getting a raise and she's staying. You can't fix them, nice them, mean them, convince them. Just let them go. Be happy, do happy, plan happy for you. They have to figure out they're dynamics, trauma, childhood, path, life, etc. I'm starting to believe their initial BD justification list is nothing more than faults that any human being could have at any point in their life. They just needed reasons and validation to their feelings that they can't event explain why they are feeling. But... If you have behavioral issues. Do 180 them.
I'm sorry that you are going through this. What I can say is that not only on just your personality type, but your childhood upbringing, and how you were raised, some of the things you unawaringingly carry over from your parents eventually seep out in your marriage, and the dysfunctional dynamics of how you interact sometimes with your spouse
IHCLACS...I'm paddling the same boat as you. I have been informed that my wife cannot heal in the house we live in because of my years of abuse. There are definitely things that I was aware of - I grew up in an abusive household, but then so did my wife. I am not the original abuser but I have definitely contributed to things that needed to change.
My wife told me 18 months ago that she no longer wanted to be married "like this" - however what I didn't know is that she already had cut another stallion from the group.
I read the book Emotionally Destructive Marriage and there was lots of great info that I needed to apply to my own life with respect to my marriage. I also read The Emotionally Abusive Relationship which was also very valuable.
At this point, my wife believes that she'll never feel safe with me again, never develop feelings for intimacy with me again. And I can't stop those.
So here we are....working on myself, preparing myself for likely a new relationship in the future, a healthy relationship with my kids (as the one I had with my dad was total crap)
H46 W38 M12 T15 D8,S7,S5
11/12/17 "I don't want to be married like this" A began 7/12/18 Confessed A 10/1/19 EA still happening with 2 4/23/19 "I want a D, but I want to stay until I find a job"
Thanks for the recommendation on the book. Going to have to check it out.
I have a lot of emotional stunting from childhood - traumatic parental divorce where learned my preteen identity wasn't important but using us kids as pawns in the divorce was. Did a lot of tuning out and blocking out during the fighting, throughout high school b/c I wasn't able to process those emotions then.
Always knew I needed IC but couldn't pay for it. But I think the key is to realize that while we have issues, they are fixable, or able to be handled. So when people in MLC or transitions bring these points up, we have to acknowledge that they are valid, but also that the MLCer is experiencing a high level of stress/hairpin trigger emotions.
Seeing it from that sort of detached observer viewpoint will help realize what is essential to focus on, and what might be just negativity for negativity's sake, imo.
She even looked into a book called Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone With Boarderline or Narcissistic personality disorder.
I found this book in my house recently. I was devastated.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
A lot of books on emotional abuse give good insight on behaviors you may or may not be aware you are doing. But I am also going to say this. I believe once a WAS is repulsed by you for whatever reason. (Lack of attraction, didn't pay her enough attention, insert whatever justification.) They will ingest all of this material IMO, feel empowered, validated, and justified in putting a label to their "treatment of victimization" and have us shoulder all the blame for everything in the marriage. Try to be aware if your behaviors that do apply whether intentionally or unintentionally and 180 on them. Be nice, play nice, be firm and assertive, but maintain composure and emotions at all costs. Think Patrick Swayze from Road House. BE NICE Just don't be a doormat.
You said a lot in your response that resonates with me.
I have been wondering the last few months: Am I emotionally abusive? Am I BPD? And can I answer these questions with honesty?
EMOTIONAL ABUSE
In the last month I read 2 books about emotional abuse: The Emotionally Abusive Relationship, and Stop Hurting the Woman You Love. I do match in specific ways:
Core fears: Fear of losing the relationship, insecurity
Triggers: W spending time with people other than me (kids, family, friends)
Tactics: Over-texting W, over-communicating, pressing her for reassurance, anger/poutiness/moodiness
Mostly in the past 2 years I have exhibited possessiveness. Frequently saying ILY expecting a response in kind, frequently bringing up affection, assuming she doesn't love me if we are not physically intimate. I have felt entitled at times, and angry, and I have minimized the impact to our M.
As you pointed out, once that worm works its way into your R, the labeling begins. I have been accused of having a PA, of using financial control (which is just not true), of using distance and space as punishment (when I was trying to give her space because I thought she wanted it) and other power/control tactics which I have not used. At the time I was hurt, stung, and a bit angry. But... now I understand. I understand how once you start being emotionally abusive, then everything you do can be tainted with it. It is a poison that infects the whole M. I don't hold this against my W, it is her truth. If she is seeing our M through the lens of emotional abuse, it is her valid experience, and I shouldn't complain because I gave her the glasses.
You also hinted at the fact that once you admit to emotionally abusive behavior, it's easy to start thinking you are 100% to blame. That's just not a useful thought, even if your S believes it, because it will lead nowhere good. In fact, assigning any % of blame is not a useful thought, as others have pointed out to me. For months I felt wholly responsible and hence felt lower than dirt. No self-esteem. Feeling unfixable. I'm screwed up from my childhood and there's no fixing it. Nobody will love me. Nobody *should* love me. My kids are going to be screwed up too. I ruined my W's life. I ruined my kids' lives. No thoughts of self-harm or anything, but just feeling like a total POS. Again... not useful thinking.
The more useful thought to me is... I did some emotionally abusive things, horrible, awful. That's not WHO I AM. I can change, I am a good person, I have some unhealthy issues and attitudes and thoughts that drove these behaviors -- I can change. I can change the attitudes and thoughts, and I can also change my actions/words/behaviors.
BPD
Whether or not I have BPD, my W may think that I do.
I do think my W treats me differently now. I am aware of the advice on how to interact with someone with BPD traits. And that is how she has been treating me -- with distance, detachment, lack of affection, don't poke the bear, etc. I feel managed. It is upsetting, but I also understand and have empathy. It makes me wonder if DR will be useful in this case, because I am also detaching, etc. There is such little room for emotion in our relationship. As hurt as I was when I found the book, now I am more understanding (still a WIP for me). I get it. She deserves to feel safe, protected, secure, and I have not provided that. Strangely it is helping me detach, and be more positive. You could almost say my W is giving me a gift?!
***
You were hinting at something else I have been thinking about. W and I went 13 years of knowing each other without me getting emotionally histrionic. Then we made a huge life decision 2 years ago. We moved for job reasons, with 3 little kids, away from family. It disrupted our lives in many ways.
I handled this by wanting more emotional support from my W. I was admittedly needy and pouty and demanding. See above on Emotional Abuse. Her reaction was the opposite. She wanted space, she offered little to no reassurance, it triggered me to seek more reassurance. It was a positive feedback loop. She has a different personality style, and that is completely okay. The more she withdrew, the more I pursued. She was so cold and distant at times where I just wanted a hug. Then I would give space and she would complain I was distant. Things got confusing fast. She seemed angry when I approached so I gave space. Looking back I wonder if the space I gave her was interpreted as coldness. In retrospect I should not have been so confused maybe? Maybe once she saw me as a person capable of emotional abuse, the whole R turned. I regret not apologizing earlier. Now I have written 3 apology letters and received no response. It feels too late.
I feel like I am changing, that I am letting go of my dreams and expectations, that although I want to jump up and say "Honey I've changed! I will no longer demand affection, I respect your needs and I apologize for what I did before and I am a whole, more healthy person!" -- the reality is this may be a lifelong process. I should have stopped the behavior before it became problematic. I let my emotions take hold, I dumped my emotions onto her (I like the term emotional contagion for this). I did want to control her behavior, I wanted her to want to be with me, to be more affectionate, to ask how my day was, to check in on my during the day, to go on more dates. I wanted us each to be each other's #1. I don't regret wanting those things, but I have tons of remorse for how I behaved and acted when I did not get those things. And I am living with the consequences. The reality is, she was adjusting to the move too, and probably depressed and worried about the future, and I was not receptive to what she needed. Maybe she was quiet, but I am her H, and I could have done so much more to meet her needs.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
What I can say is that not only on just your personality type, but your childhood upbringing, and how you were raised, some of the things you unawaringingly carry over from your parents eventually seep out in your marriage, and the dysfunctional dynamics of how you interact sometimes with your spouse
So true. I am estranged from my parents at the moment (3 years running), mostly because of my mom's BPD/NPD traits that made having a healthy relationship with proper boundaries impossible. BTW there is a great book "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" which has a ton of great insights, I have re-read it a couple times (not just for BPD/NPD, but just emotionally immature parents in general). I have much deeper understanding of how my parents' emotional distance influenced my own beliefs, attitude, and behaviors. For instance, I always wanted to be emotionally close in my M, as a reaction to how I was raised, so distance is a huge trigger for me.
The insights are great, but in fact the DR techniques I find much more useful. MWD even says this -- insights lead to understanding, but not always behavioral change. Do this, stop doing that. Concrete actions. My mindset is gradually evolving - I can tell it's going to take months, years - but I can sense the changes and I'm feeling positive for the first time in awhile (in the middle of the 5 stages I'm going through in parallel). I'm feeling better realizing I need to own my own happiness and really work on myself, or I will not be a good R partner (or father) going forward.
I always suggest to newbies to start with "How to be a 3% Man" available on Amazon.
How are you so sure she is not having an affair?
Thanks I will check out the book recommendation.
I'm not 100% sure on the A. She is SAHM right now with 3 kids, 2 of whom are not of school age yet. We have a nanny come 2 days a week, during which she typically goes shopping, running errands, etc. W never gets dressed up. Often goes to see some friends, and takes lots of pictures on puts them on our cloud account. Honestly she seems depressed. If I had to guess W wants D because of emotional abuse. She doesn't go out at night secretively. We ended MC in January, which we both agreed did not end well, and ever since she has been distancing herself from me and the M.
