A Real Mess Pt.2

[SoTorn]

You are really focused on her and what she is doing. She is running around a hamster wheel in your brain.



Stop all relationship talks. You need to work on detaching. She is taking up way too much of your mental bandwidth during the day. Time to focus on yourself.

Stop worrying about what she is doing. Stop wondering what she thinks about when you do things.

Shorten up those conversations.

[si13]

THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE NEVER DONE AS I WANTED TO GET AN ANSWER THAT SHE'LL STAY.

In a roundabout way she said she was unsure what she wanted, couldn't guarantee any outcome and didn't want expectation.

In a nutshell this is the difference in the LBH and the WW's mindset. It has not even occurred to her that you aren't biting your nails wondering if she'll stay or leave. And the pitiful thing is....she's right........or are you changing that perception?

WW's are very arrogant. It's all about her (in her opinion) and until you show her differently, she won't ever change.

Sandi - I don't think this felt more true than this morning. Here I have 20 minutes to get ready for work and I feel like I get put to work at home getting stuff for the kids when she gets up too late.

Then when she tells me she works today, she'll need help with the dinner. But the truth is she gets off work to pick up the kids at 2pm and then 3pm but I don't get home until 530pm. Not sure what help she's thinking I'll be at 530pm when she is ALREADY HOME.

I need to re-engage these DBs and get my mind off what SHE is doing and do for myself. I have gotten distracted by what little progress I think I'm seeing on the weekends.

[sandi2]

Then when she tells me she works today, she'll need help with the dinner. But the truth is she gets off work to pick up the kids at 2pm and then 3pm but I don't get home until 530pm. Not sure what help she's thinking I'll be at 530pm when she is ALREADY HOME.

I still have doubts about the abuse issues. It just doesn't chime with her behavior. But whatever..........if you meekly fall into a pattern where you are afraid to speak up or disagree with her b/c she'll claim you are controlling......join the club of the other LBH's who have a WW. IMHO, your W appears to be taking advantage of this entire situation. If she thinks she has you by the b@lls, b/c of her abuse claim, then in fact.......she does. So, you have to figure out how to reclaim your b@lls without being emotionally abusive. As for the controlling accusations, IDK........b/c most WW's accuse their H of controlling. It doesn't mean it's true. If you are controlling, we'll probably see it show up in some of your posts and will point it out.

If she has ruled the roost for a considerable amount of time, then she feels a sense of entitlement and expects you to do follow her orders. Yes, they are orders! She may word it in such a way that it doesn't sound as if she is commanding, but the reality is......she gives the orders and expects you to follow. Do you DARE disobey?

IDK about your W, but some W's enter the M as selfish and spoiled girls, b/c their parents raised them to feel they were special and they never had to do house work or such. This makes it more difficult on a H who is a nice guy and wants to do his share to help with the children and house chores, b/c her sense of entitlement will surface and he will succumb in order to "keep the peace". The longer this scenario continues, the harder it may be for the H to gain a sense of control over his life. He feels he must be available for her bidding.......or he has hell to pay.

When the W is dishing out orders to her H and he obediently follows, she will eventually lose respect for him. Although she may feel a sense of entitlement, it is her female nature to desire a man who leads. When a W is wayward, the ONLY thing she will respect is strength. Therefore, if she can lead her H around by the nose, she doesn't see him in an attractive role. Perhaps you don't see your W going to that extent of leading you around by the nose. Maybe it's more like she's just taking advantage of you. Whatever.........you get the same results, which is disrespect.

I don't know your personality types, but you might be able to kind of call her out by just smiling and say something like, "Oh I have all confidence in your ability to pick up the kids and prepare dinner in a three and half hours time". Then you move on and don't get into a discussion. This is the part that many H's miss. They get sucked into the W's lashings b/c they stick around for her reaction to his remark.

What would happen if you didn't go home immediately after work? Has that ever happened? I'm not suggesting it, I'm just curious.

I don't want to see you get into a tit-for-tat game with your W, where both of you are trying to pay back the other one for one for something you don't like that they did.

I think your W knows exactly what she's doing. She knows you are trying to improve yourself by working through some personal issues. She knows you want to save the M, and you're walking on egg shells in order to not do anything that hints of you controlling or emotionally abusing. That gives a WW a lot of power! Don't think for a minute she won't take advantage of it. She knows you are in IC and that your issues are linked to her. She isn't trying to help you......she's using it to her advantage. As much as your IC may encourage you to do this & that in your MR.........you are dealing with a WW. That puts you in an entirely different ball park. If your IC doesn't understand the mindset of the WW, then you will be receiving conflicting advice if the IC tries to relate it to your interactions with WW.

You have already lost your W, so let go of that fear. That marriage is over, and the two of you are simply going through the motions. You don't have to file for D, but you need to mentally/emotionally let her go. Once you let go of her, you'll be able to find the man you want to be. You have to become a good man before you can be a good husband.

[si13]

**joyfully hit by 2/4** thank you Sandi.

What you said hit me straight between the eyes. I have felt for a long time now that the tables have turned and now I am the one who is responding to covert tactics - she does know exactly what she's doing and I have to walk on eggshells not to upset her as she knows I'm trying to salvage the M and keep the peace.

But I need to dig deep and do as you say.

She has ruled the roost from the moment she took the intimacy away 18 months ago (and then gave it away by PA for 9 months and EA for 6 months concurrently). It appears she is out of those now, I can't see anything suspicious and quite frankly I'm exhausted from being suspicious, snooping AND focusing on her.

I need to get to tactfully practice my responses "I have all the confidence that you can prepare dinner in the 3 hours". But I am keenly aware of my own propensity to be sarcastic and recovering from being belittling. This I can admit.

She is poking the h*** out of me with passive-aggressive jabs lately. Mentioning things "in jest" that she knows have bothered me, joking about certain things around the kids, trying to play house like we have a fun relationship still.

Long story short, I need to emotionally and mentally get myself doing this for me, myself, my sanity, my confidence.

[sandi2]

she does know exactly what she's doing and I have to walk on eggshells not to upset her as she knows I'm trying to salvage the M and keep the peace.

Maybe she should wonder if you want to salvage the M. Whenever a spouse is taken for granted, ............well, you know better than anyone how it feels, right? She is truly taking you and the M for granted, and that is why she doesn't respect you and why she is not working on the MR.

She has ruled the roost from the moment she took the intimacy away 18 months ago

The spouse who least desires the intimacy is the one who controls.

I need to get to tactfully practice my responses "I have all the confidence that you can prepare dinner in the 3 hours". But I am keenly aware of my own propensity to be sarcastic and recovering from being belittling. This I can admit.

I'm the same way. But you know, when she says something that is so obvious about her intentions.......why should you care if your response has a sarcastic ring? I mean, she's taking advantage and controlling you, and I think you should let her know you're not playing along. If you can say it with some humor, then more power to you. (Maybe I'm having an off day.)

She is poking the h*** out of me with passive-aggressive jabs lately. Mentioning things "in jest" that she knows have bothered me, joking about certain things around the kids, trying to play house like we have a fun relationship still.

Okay, let's talk about this. First of all, she KNOWS she's poking you, but it goes further than just poking. You need to recognize this behavior for what it really is. This a common show of disrespect that a W does in front of others. She says it in front of the children, which makes it even more disrespectful toward her H. She is pretty sure he is not going to confront her about it in front of the kids. She says it in a passive-aggressive way, and expects the H to simply ignore any action, but both of them know she's poking. She may say it in sort of a joking, but not really funny way. So in case the H should complain, she'll accuse him of not being able to take a joke. But she knows better than anyone she is putting him down in front of his own children. So........what is the best way of handling this? I'm probably not the one to give that answer. (ha) I simply don't believe in allowing the W to get by with that display of disrespect. The longer the H doesn't address it, the worse she'll get. I don't mean he should do it in front of the kids, but he should confront her about it. Let her know it is not funny and it is disrespectful and it needs to stop. I think he should have something in mind for what he will do if she doesn't cooperate. If she's done this for a long time, she is going to test you to see what you'll do.

Some posters may tell you to not let her bother you. Well, there are some things you can let run off your back and ignore, and some things you can't. IMHO, anything that indicates disrespect should be nipped in the bud, and not allowed to continue. Some things you can turn around, and some you can't. Since I'm not there and can't hear it, you will have to decide what you see as disrespect. I don't like the "poking" just to get a rise out of you. That's her daring you, to see how just how far she can carry things. Another form of verbal disrespect. I think some H's with NGS try to tell themselves to just ignore it, and even tell each other that same advice.........but I can't go along with it when she's putting her H down, no matter if it's in a form of a "joke" or whatever. It's still disrespect.

What you can let run off your back is her whining, having pity parties, giving the silent treatment or cold shoulder. But not a show of disrespect. Make sense?

Here's the thing that really gets next to me about LBH's with NGS. They think that saving the M means they have to silently take whatever poop the W throws on them. Nothing could be farther from reality. If she is wayward, the first thing he has to do is command respect. If he can't have her respect, then they will never have a happy MR. That's the bottom line, b/c she can't desire him and feel disrespect for him. Women are designed where their "in love" feelings are tied to their level of adoration. If not from some physical problem, then rest assured that whenever a W stops being intimate with her H, it's b/c she doesn't adore him as a man. Can it be restored? Yes, in cases where the W is cooperative.


How old are your kids?

[si13]

Sandi. Thank you SOOOOOOOO much for all the feedback. I appreciate it so much as I know you have been in the WW shoes and what you're saying makes SO. MUCH. SENSE.

I have not been acting to gain respect but willing to acquiesce to her because I want the M!!

But I see now why that makes sense to stop. When I don't engage her "silliness" as she likes to call it because of course its ALL in jest, she'll ask if I'm mad or why I'm being short. I'm simply not engaging. Lots of temperature checking as you can imagine when I don't play along.

I have stopped bringing her coffee in the mornings which she is WAY curious as to why. I haven't directly answered. She asked this morning if it was because I was making a stand.

I haven't been GAL enough, we usually retire in our MBR to watch a show together before bed. I work a long day, work out at the gym during lunch and then am pretty beat by the time we get the kids to bed.

To answer your question, we have 3 young kids ages D8, S7 and S5. They LOVE us and because of the silliness and engagement at dinner and praying as a family before bed, they are pretty oblivious that we aren't on track.

Again, I'm SO appreciative for you feedback. I'm trying to find new ways to self-discover, I joined a meet-up group yesterday for outdoor activities in our area. I'm not going to date through this process. While I'm lonely as h***, I never want to tell my kids that Daddy did this when Mommy gave up. I see that as integrity. I will stand by my wife until it is final spiritually and lawfully.

I am definitely becoming the man I wish that I was years ago for sure. Not with shame (at least not as heavily as I once did), but I know that I'm a catch. Getting more confident of this day-by-day.

By the way what is NGS?

[unchien]

By the way what is NGS?

NGS = Nice Guy Syndrome

Check out "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Your sitch resonates with mine in several ways - I can almost guarantee this book will help you.

[sandi2]

But I see now why that makes sense to stop. When I don't engage her "silliness" as she likes to call it because of course its ALL in jest, she'll ask if I'm mad or why I'm being short. I'm simply not engaging. Lots of temperature checking as you can imagine when I don't play along.

It's one thing to have fun, act silly, or joke. But it's another thing when this behavior comes at someone else's expense. Now stay balanced in what I'm trying to say here. People need to have a "good nature" and not get bent out shape if something funny is said. However, if that something is a statement belittling, demeaning, the butt of a joke, or a passive-aggressive remark by the spouse.......then it is verbal disrespect, and I don't care how many laughs it gets from others.

Have you ever approached her with a serious face and say, "Look, I don't like it. I feel disrespected and I want it to stop". If she says she is just playing with you or being silly, tell her again that you see it as being disrespectful and you want her to stop.

I am assuming that you don't give the same treatment. If you've tried to show her how it feels, then I suggest you stop, b/c you won't win. Frankly, some couples get into a very bad habit of putting each other down (especially in front of others) in the form of "joking"........but it's more like making them the butt of the joke. The recipient feels he has to laugh along with those who are laughing at him, or be accused of being a bad sport. However, his W is poking fun at him in front of his kids, his friends, family, etc. It is not a funny situation. It is a form of showing him disrespect. I doubt he wants to ravish her with lovemaking when she is making her jabs and belittling him. He knows in his gut it is not attractive, and she knows it, too. She may try to play dumb if he confronts her, but once he tells her to stop.......she should never do it again.

Let me be perfectly plain with you about how important it is for a W to show respect for her H. If he cannot command respect, then he might as well get a D and be done with it. His MR will never be what he truly desires. She'll never feel desire for him as a man, b/c she can't when she feels disrespect for him. Women are different from men in this regard. Therefore, the H can do everything he hears suggested to try in winning back his W's affection and favor, but nothing will succeed until she sees him as a man she truly respects. When she starts to really respect him, her adoration and desire grows for him. That's the secret ingredient that many couples seem to miss. I've studied MR's for years, and read all the little tricks in how to have a more passionate relationship, but I can tell you that none of it works when the woman has no respect in the man. Before you can become a wonderful husband and have a great MR, you have to become a man she respects.

This is why I have a problem with men catering to b'thcy and spoiled WW's, in the name of "saving their M". If she should decide to stay with him (b/c he is simply plan B), it's going to be hell for him, if he doesn't require change in her. He will always be answering to her, b/c she will always be the one calling the shots, b/c he's too scared of losing her. Men say they don't want to lose their children, yada, yada, yada. I'm not completely cold hearted and I can understand not wanting to lose your family. These days, most fathers have at least 50/50 custody. So, I think men have to decide if they want a happier future with their kids 50%, or live in a disrespected atmosphere where misery abounds.......plus take a chance of losing their children's respect in them as a man, as well.

This may sound as if I'm here promoting divorce. I'm here promoting respect in family relationships. I am trying to tell men that their W cannot have loving feelings for him without first respecting him. Why should any man live out his life with someone who not only doesn't love him and wants to be with only him......but finds contempt for him as a man? That's no way to live life, IMHO. So, that's why I encourage you to focus on her showing respectful behavior. She may not feel it right now, but that is b/c you have not required it. Once she has to conduct herself in a respectful manner, then she is more likely to start actually feeling it. But it's up to you to require it, and it's up to her to cooperate. If she chooses to not cooperate and continues to openly disrespects you, then I think you need to seriously reconsider where you want to go with this relationship. When you have a WW, it takes a lot of tough love to gain her respect. What you've been doing, doesn't cut it.

I never want to tell my kids that Daddy did this when Mommy gave up. I see that as integrity. I will stand by my wife until it is final spiritually and lawfully.

Not sure what you mean by "this", unless you are referring to a divorce. I suppose people have their views about integrity, and if they live by their religious beliefs, then I have to respect for them for it.........if they are truly doing it out of religious conviction, and not using the religion as their excuse to put up with waywardness.

While speaking about how the WW disrespects her H in front of others, I think it is especially damaging to how children. It affects their view of their father, when mom is making him the butt of her silliness, and making passive-aggressive jabs. Kids pick up on the clues of disrespect from mom, and they begin to see daddy through the same lens as their mom has taught them to do. I've read so many posts from soft guys who silently hope & pray that their kids will see how their father wasn't the one who threw in the marriage towel and put up with the disrespect for the children's sake. However, when the kids grow up under their mother's disrespect for their father, that influence can affect the kids and how they respect him, too. Fathers are a role model for their sons. So, when the son grows up and gets M, he will follow the pattern he saw in the father........which was to cow-down to the mother. The son will find himself in the same unhappy MR that dad lived out his life. Is it really worth telling the son that you weren't the one who gave up? How does that help the father or his son? I don't think it will be much comfort for the son to find out that dad stayed under the thumb of a wayward W and chose to do nothing about it. IMHO, it's better to teach a child to have self respect and how to command it from those in a relationship, rather than show how you succumb to the bully wife on a daily basis. Children need to have a least one positive role model to know how to deal with their future relationships. I'm just saying that you can't have a loving intimate relationship with a wife without her respect.

Daughters are affected by her role model, as well. She will expect to rule the roost while her H quietly accepts whatever behavior she chooses to display.......if that's what she saw her own father doing while she was a child. So, yeah, there is a lot of responsibility put on parents to be the healthy role models. I've been on the board for a long time, and I have seen lots of LBH's comfort one another (or guilt one another?) by saying they want to be able to look their kids in the eyes and tell them they did everything in their power to save the M. My question is, what good does that do if all the kids saw was a rebellious & resentful WW who constantly showed them that their father was not a man to be respected under his own roof by his own family? What good comes from the father telling them that it wasn't his fault that the M failed? Will that make a man feel satisfied or justified to live in decades of disrespectful misery, while watching how negatively it affects his children?

Look, I'm not saying kids don't suffer the fallout of their parent's divorce. I'm just saying that I see no purpose in staying in a untrustworthy and disrespectful MR just so you can one day tell your kids that it was the WW's fault for giving up. Is he trying to look like the better person to his kid....... just b/c he stuck around and tolerated the actions of a WW and did nothing to gain respect? To me, it shows a lack of his own self respect. But.....everyone to their own opinion, and this is just my own. To be clear, my family has suffered divorce from more than one wayward spouse. I've seen the results of abuse, infidelity, etc. In each case, it started with a lack of disrespect on the part of a spouse......including my own waywardness. I know the road back from that state of waywardness.....and it starts with willingness & cooperation from the wayward partner. FWIW, I hate divorce, but there have been some cases where I've seen that it was necessary to separate/divorce from an unhealthy relationship when the other spouse refused to cooperate in healing the MR.

Sorry for rambling on & on.

[si13]

Sandi. This is all pure gold. I really appreciate it.

This is shifting gears a bit but wondered what your take was if I discover there is another A. I know it doesn't change anything (although it kills my desire to pursue her anymore).

How do I communicate that I know?







W took another shot at me this morning. Please help me identify why this rubs me the wrong way.

I was getting ready to go to work and take the 2 older kids to school.

My W before I was getting ready to walk out the door motions for me to come close to her. I haven't been giving her hugs, telling her ILY or anything when I leave, just have a good day. Even last night when I went out, she was frustrated I wasn't giving her ANY details of where I was. I told her just out for a drive. "For 2 hours?" Yes. You're being elusive she said.

This morning when she had me come close, she told me there was a boy that gave my daughter a love note. I replied oh boy. My D8 is only in 2nd grade so I'm not loading my shotgun just yet.

But as I was walking out, my W says, "like the kind of note you used to write to me."

WTF??????

[SteveLW]

It rubs you the wrong way because........you let it.

Detachment is not going through the motions, though practice does make perfect. Fake it until you make it. But you need to let this stuff run off your back like water off a duck. Work on not letting it affect you emotionally.

The friendly cashier method helps with this. Imagine your W, when you interact with her, is like the friendly cashier at the store. If the friendly cashier said the same thing to you, you'd chuckle........(or maybe think she was a little nuts) but once you walked away you wouldn't give it another moment's thought. Treat your W like the friendly cashier...and put as much stock into her words as you would the friendly cashier.