Unichen. You are definately in the friend zone, your W is preparing you to "be friendly" for co parenting. She is staging. She is not going to MC or IC individually with no willingness to work on the marriage. You're assessment is correct. She is only going to find clarity for herself and closure to make herself feel better from my experience. She has no intention on working on the M if she is being secretive, withholding feelings, being guarded, and emotionally unavailable and withdrawn to you.
Just based off my limited experience since I'm 7 months in, in the midst of sellung our home, and seperating.This is where it gets worse and becomes a balancing act of working on yourself, becoming being ambiguous to W that you are also not a "sure thing" but you are not done as well. You kind of have to make it non verbally clear that you are moving forward with your life, and she is welcome to reach out for your hand without you having to look back and ask for hers, which she most likely won't at this stage. You need to be non verbally clear that you are content, happy, but you will also not just be "her friend" even if its only for the sake of the kids. I have, well not struggled in front of my W, but with myself on clearly separating everything family related to set a precedence that I'm not going to entertain helping her manipulate me or fulfil her fantasy or desire to move me into the friend zone.
Its kind of like this. This is just my theory, and the vets are welcome to step in on this and correct me. Most women have checkboxes in a R and if you are not meeting most of them emotionally, romantically, sexually, physically, spiritually, and paternaly, whether it be due to life stresses, behavioral issues, work, kids, hobbies, personal choices or whatever, they are going to get these "feelings" that something is off. If they nit pick you constantly, feel a lack of trust with you, They are looking at life in the future at first debating with, or without you. They are going to feel "confused" or work more torwards certainty or clairity with IC why they feel this way, because they don't even understand. It is my belief that before or during BD when you get the "justification list" of all the things you weren't doing for them, it is them reasoning with themselves being done, justifying actions for leaving the marriage, because of lack of attraction, bad behaviors that caused it, etc. They don't see a future with you, and are paving the way to save themselves, their core emotional being, and pave the way forward without you. Hence the reason why they go cold, feel numb, say things like ILYBINILWY, "I have to find myself" etc. They eventually "thaw" and then decide to move away from the M. Stick you in th friend zone as plan b, and just for the sake of the kids. We are shocked because we never saw the warning signs. some of us were intimate rap until the point of BD, and saw the signs as nothing more than passing isolated issues. My w is currently convinced that we can be really good friends once we go through the separation and work on ourselves, that's something really good is going to come out of it but not as a couple any longer. She might be right. It pi$$es me off, but she might be right. but it's hard for a lot of us to accept that because we knew them as being romantical with them. Who the hell wants to go backwards and accept something different?
Because I'm starting to understand this more, it's giving me insight, but I'm still figuring out how to apply it and reverse it. I'm even questioning myself on whether I'm even interested in preserving this M. Some days I'm done and other days I'm not. You almost have to be indifferent towards your W. W are looking for father's, lovers, providers and friends. If you are not hitting all three, you are going to be friend zoned. As far as I'm concerned you are the man. You have to be the man as a father, a lover, and friend, and a husband. There is absolutely nothing that you can do to change their minds. They have to change it for themselves. once they decide to leave there's no going back in the wheels are in motion. They have to see you as a better option once they leave, and this is why it's critical you get to work on you and stop worrying about her. I don't know yet because I'm not all the way through the other side of this yet and early in my sich, and haven't made a lot of significant changes, but some, but I'm hoping that time apart which is now inevitable, has W that the grass isn't greener on the other side, and that in time W sees me as AMOAFWL. She does great? If she doesn't oh well? I'll be moving forward looking forward to things in my life alone and finding someone more compatible who appreciates me for me.
Does all this make sense? give should I stay or should I go by Lundy Bancroft a read. I'm going to warn you it might make you feel guilty once you learn their mindset and all the things that you did wrong. But it's going to give you valuable insight. Towards the end of the book it's going to go into W moving forward, and finding new loves of their lives. rebuilding themselves independently and moving forward without you. Reading that may emotionally upset you cuz it's not what you want to think about what you want for your marriage. So read it in a private place. I'm really good at giving good advice on these things and horrible at following it myself. But Keep working on you. For you and try to learn to detach.
Also wanted to add, regarding the convo on the last page about the books you're reading and such- be mindful that the goal isn't to beat yourself up for being a horrible person with tons of faults and a bad husband. The goal is to identify weak areas in your life and work on improving yourself in those areas. It's far too common for the LBS to start reading all this stuff and come to the conclusion that everything is their fault and they are a horrible father, husband and person. If you were then you wouldn't be here, you would have been the one that BD'd and you'd be out having an affair with some floozy. Be mindful that YOU are a person with honesty and integrity and that yes you need to make some tweaks but no you are not an awful person that deserves this.
Thanks Stander. I am definitely the type to obsess about all my flaws and read too much to understand the other person, and it tends to not help. The reading I like right now is focusing on my self. What is helping me right now is focusing on myself, being positive & upbeat, having steadier emotions and confidence, and not letting W's reactions get to me as much as they did before... they still bother me, but I see a gradual change happening.
She is not going to MC or IC individually with no willingness to work on the marriage.
Actually my W is in IC and has been for 3 months. My take is she's probably working on herself and disconnecting from the M.
So much other good stuff in your post, thanks. I don't think I'm ready to read your book recommendation, I'm just not sure it would help me right now when I'm trying to pick myself off the mat (where I was in April) and just be more positive and upbeat so I can prepare for the tsunami that's about to hit. Maybe when I'm in a better place mentally and emotionally. I'm aware I took things for granted, and could have handled things differently.
Your post makes so much sense to me, but I am still so confused how to implement the ideas. Specifically... how do you become happy and content, but yet show your W you are there for her, at the same time you are okay with things not working out that way? Someone wrote an early response to me about walking down a path and periodically shining a light back, in case your W wants to follow. But you have to keep going down that path. I love the poetry and it makes so much sense, but I struggle with the implementation. If we are in the kitchen talking about her day for 10 minutes, do I cut her off and leave? Do I continue to act empathetic? It is so confusing what exactly to do in specific situations.
We had a strange interaction last night. W came home after dinner with a colleague and was talking about ramping her career soon, where we need a nanny to watch D5 and D3 a couple days a week. She said there may be days where the nanny falls through and she might drop the kids at the neighbors, but wasn't sure what would work.
I said, "I will call in sick on those days to watch the girls, as long as I'm not on work travel."
W got angry and said, "OK but in the past when I was super sick you still HAD to go to work."
I responded calmly, "You are right, I wasn't there for you, I should have stayed home that day, and I'm sorry for that. Going forward, I plan to call in sick or WFH on days where you need help."
W responded, angrily, "I don't want to talk about this anymore." and then we proceeded to talk 20 more minutes about the school moms.
I felt pretty good about this interaction. I wasn't overly apologetic, but I acknowledged that I was thoughtless in the past. I was really level-headed about it, like "This is what I'm going to do going forward." We had a similar interaction a few weeks ago when I stayed home to watch my sick D5, and W said something like "You didn't do that before when I was sick" and she was clearly angry about it. I'm a little iffy whether I should have apologized last night, but I feel it was warranted and I kept it concise.
I'm not overly interpreting W's anger. Most likely she is just angry, and realizes she shouldn't be expressing her anger to me if she is trying to detach herself. Or maybe I am making progress and the anger is a good thing. I don't know... I felt great because I was not focused on the outcome, I was focused on myself, and I felt good about the fact that my plan going forward would be to be more supportive. Obviously I may not get that chance, but I'm doing what I can.
Regarding: The Friend Zone
If the D happens, yes, we do still need to co-parent and ideally be on friendly terms, and that would be my goal. I started to think about whether that is her goal or not, but with each day I'm so exhausted trying to figure out what is going on in W's mind that I need to stop, and focus on what I can control.
The Friend Zone is an interesting one. There are some things that, D or not, we will always need to talk about. The kids, school, etc. Then there are things that may change with D. I am starting to think about my boundaries here, planning for the future. For instance, right now, W will still talk about issues in her family (grandparents' health, issues with her mom), her career plans, how the school mom's treat her. I listen and I am empathetic, I don't offer much advice or try to problem-solve. I think she likes that part of our R still. Or maybe these are just the topics that are safe for us to discuss. Post-D, as friendly as I'd like to be, I feel like I will need to set a boundary that I will not discuss those things, that I am no longer her intimate partner in that way. As much as I want to be that shoulder for her, and offer opportunities to reconcile, I need to move on, and also show her that she needs to move on and show her what she is losing by leaving the M. Does that make sense?
... and yet at the same time, I feel like that would make it harder to reconcile. I guess maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse. Maybe once we reach that point, things will be much clearer for me.
She’s getting angry because she has most likely made up her mind to D you and now you’re doing what she wanted you to do. If she Ds you while you’re doing everything right then she’s the bad person.
Why do you think setting boundaries will make it harder to reconcile?
She’s getting angry because she has most likely made up her mind to D you and now you’re doing what she wanted you to do.
I agree. Or she's angry because she thinks I'm full of it and just saying what she wants to hear. Either way, I still feel good about saying what I did, because I intend to do that provided we stay married. If we are not married, and she has custody with the kids that day and she needs to work, I'm not going to bail her out. That is a boundary I intend to enforce.
Originally Posted by LH19
If she Ds you while you’re doing everything right then she’s the bad person.
Possibly. Maybe W can explore this in her IC. That's probably why she is in IC.
Like many of us here, we are in shock, and feel like if our spouse just made things more clear we would have made changes sooner and prevented where we are today.
Could W have made her concerns more clear? Yes. Could I have recognized these issues myself? Yes. I don't feel like a bad person. It's just not useful to try to figure out who is to blame how much for what. It is what it is. I'm here now in this awful situation that I feel was avoidable. It's so hard to just accept what is.
Originally Posted by LH19
Why do you think setting boundaries will make it harder to reconcile?
Good point.
Knowing my W quite well, I think reconciliation is out of the question, regardless of what I do. Once she makes decisions about people in her life, there is no going back. I'm firmly planted there. I don't think she would make this decision, and then later question herself. She is mentally strong, and not going to question something she did in the past. She does not have regrets about other relationships she has ended before - ex-boyfriends, friends, even family members.
Honestly, this process is mostly about me accepting that D is coming. There is a Hail Mary chance that we go to MC and somehow make enough headway that she reconsiders before the BD. I have zero illusions that this will happen. Like everyone says here, she has probably been thinking about this for months if not years... once she builds up the courage to BD, there is realistically no going back.
I'm curious how much boundary-setting I should be doing before the BD? Sometimes we talk 20 minutes about things she wants to talk about, and I work on validating, active listening, etc. I feel like I am practicing skills that will be useful to me regardless of what happens, but sometimes wonder if I need to grow a pair and pull away a bit.
Your boundary should be no R discussions. If she brings it up and wants to chit chat about things, then validate and actively listen. Pulling away and doing your own thing with a positive attitude is what you need to do. Don't be cold or mean or rude. If she engages, then engage and follow the validation path.
Another boundary should be that you shouldn't take disrespect and yelling etc from her. If she is mad at you, then calmly state that you're willing to have the conversation but not while emotions are running high, and you'll disengage if she continues this. And if she does, just politely end the convo and walk away. That's showing balls too.
So figure out what your boundaries first are. What are you willing to accept and what is outside of that. The boundaries are not about teaching her a lesson etc, they are to protect you and what is important to you.
Having gone through this, I know this dance is difficult and sometimes feels contradictory. Also don't over analyze every single interaction. If you think something went poorly, make a mental note to do it differently. One bad interaction isn't going to sink the ship.
Boundary setting should be done in general - even in healthy relationships. So doing it before BD is totally fine.
Having gone through this, I know this dance is difficult and sometimes feels contradictory. Also don't over analyze every single interaction. If you think something went poorly, make a mental note to do it differently. One bad interaction isn't going to sink the ship.
Boundary setting should be done in general - even in healthy relationships. So doing it before BD is totally fine.
This. This is the lesson I learned before I founde DB, the hard way. Putting too much weight on any single interaction can cause you more pain than necessary, for an interaction that will probably be forgotten about in a day or a week.
Also, I wouldn't put too much pressure on yourself for when the BD happens. In all honesty it is a good thing to assume it will happen, you can prepare yourself mentally for when the dam breaks. Also, because it will give you the opportunity to assert yourself, remain calm, validate, and if you wish state that you also have not been happy with the way that things are going. IMO of course.
This. This is the lesson I learned before I founde DB, the hard way. Putting too much weight on any single interaction can cause you more pain than necessary, for an interaction that will probably be forgotten about in a day or a week.
Also, I wouldn't put too much pressure on yourself for when the BD happens. In all honesty it is a good thing to assume it will happen, you can prepare yourself mentally for when the dam breaks. Also, because it will give you the opportunity to assert yourself, remain calm, validate, and if you wish state that you also have not been happy with the way that things are going. IMO of course.
Sometimes I just want to rip off the Band-Aid. But yeah I agree, I have to stay calm and stay the course. The BD will happen and with more time I will be more prepared. I went from having maybe 10% hope that MC would offer an opportunity to save things, to now feeling it is <0.1%. But I still feel there is a chance, and that is what is so painful and hurtful. It is soul-sucking and heart-breaking to see this woman I love just drift away with anger and resentment, especially when I feel although I did some things wrong, I am on the right path.
Your boundary should be no R discussions. If she brings it up and wants to chit chat about things, then validate and actively listen. Pulling away and doing your own thing with a positive attitude is what you need to do. Don't be cold or mean or rude. If she engages, then engage and follow the validation path.
Another boundary should be that you shouldn't take disrespect and yelling etc from her. If she is mad at you, then calmly state that you're willing to have the conversation but not while emotions are running high, and you'll disengage if she continues this. And if she does, just politely end the convo and walk away. That's showing balls too.
So figure out what your boundaries first are. What are you willing to accept and what is outside of that. The boundaries are not about teaching her a lesson etc, they are to protect you and what is important to you.
Having gone through this, I know this dance is difficult and sometimes feels contradictory. Also don't over analyze every single interaction. If you think something went poorly, make a mental note to do it differently. One bad interaction isn't going to sink the ship.
Boundary setting should be done in general - even in healthy relationships. So doing it before BD is totally fine.
I stopped initiating R discussions. About 3 weeks ago I said I wanted to talk in person to share some feelings (mostly to apologize in person as I had only done so in a series of letters and e-mails). But she said maybe we could go to my IC so I could "share my feelings" - pretty condescendingly honestly. So yeah I stopped.
She asked if I wanted to do that sometime this month, or go to MC in June or July. I just said "I'm most interested in couples." and left it at that. I know what's coming.
She doesn't really yell or do much of anything around me. I wonder sometimes if the narrative in her head is that I punished her with space and distance for not giving me affection. In my head, she was angry and prickly and she clearly did not want affection initiated by me. What a mess. Sometimes I feel if MC1 was more effective, things would have turned out differently.
But it is what it is... I'm doing better about avoiding over-analysis. It's tough.
