I have been puzzling over this. I am not sure how it builds a healthy relationship if being a well differentiated adult means learning to validate ourselves. I can try to validate H and I can accept he doesn't have the skills or capacity to validate me, and as an adult I need to be working towards self-validation. But then don't I want to be in a relationship with someone who can self-validate too? Doesn't dishing it out just stop him learning to do it for himself, and isn't withdrawing validation a part of going dark and removing the benefits of being in a marriage from the spouse who has BDd?
Just curious as to what people's thoughts are on this.
OK, so validating as far as I can see is demonstrating using words that you understand someone else's feelings and accept them. Not that you agree with them, not that you take blame, not that you act defensive or argue with them and not that you tell them they have got the wrong interpretation, not that you push the Fixit button. Because their feelings are their feelings and they are entitled to them just as we are entitled to our own feelings. And having someone else understand your feelings is nice, especially if you feel like you're aggrieved and misunderstood, as our spouses have done for years (and as we probably have done too, let's be honest, but we are being the bigger person here and accepting that their feelings are valid first despite their horrible behaviour).
So an unhealthy relationship is one where both people are blaming each other and not understanding how the other person feels. In order to stop that negative cycle at least one of you has to change that. And if you show someone you understand their feelings then it makes it harder for them to blame you, because part of the reason they're blaming might be that they feel misunderstood.
If you're both busy self-validating then where is the relationship? I agree that you need to understand your own feelings and accept them, and preferably not act on them if they tell you to do stupid and impulsive things! But sharing your internal world to some extent is what builds intimacy isn't it? And at some stage your spouse will have to jump on the validation bandwagon in terms of you being able to share your feelings with them and have them understand them and not be defensive blah blah blah (but you will have done this in a non-blamey healthy way), but for now one person has to get that bandwagon moving.
Well, that is my take, hopefully I'm along the right lines! I need to practice a lot more, I've been in defensive, fixing mode for so long it's difficult to step back and take a different approach.
I have been puzzling over this. I am not sure how it builds a healthy relationship if being a well differentiated adult means learning to validate ourselves. I can try to validate H and I can accept he doesn't have the skills or capacity to validate me, and as an adult I need to be working towards self-validation. But then don't I want to be in a relationship with someone who can self-validate too? Doesn't dishing it out just stop him learning to do it for himself, and isn't withdrawing validation a part of going dark and removing the benefits of being in a marriage from the spouse who has BDd?
Just curious as to what people's thoughts are on this.
Validating one’s own feelings is helpful. It helps you to acknowledge your own feelings. You can’t make anyone validate for you. If you can’t validate yourself, you are seeking validation. Seeking validation is useless. I’ve tried for a long time with everyone. Saying things to hope they acknowledge my feelings, saying things I don’t think or want to see if I can get some validation, etc.
Don’t validate others hoping to get validated. Don’t give gifts to others expecting to receive gifts back. That’s my mindset.
I can’t comment on the going dark thing, I didn’t do that. I am showing change, being friendly, and doing it how I want to do it. She is noticing. She can’t figure out what the heck is going on. It’s kind of funny.
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
Following our conversation the other night, I haven’t really engaged her on anything, just like I said I would do. When she is ready I am here to listen.
She texted me today in a more pleasant tone to ask me for my version of how co parenting will work and to put it in writing. I told her I will think about it but that I am hesitant to put anything in writing because I’ve been burned by that.
She also said she owed me a conversation where she listens and I talk. I disagreed; I told her that she doesn’t owe me for my time and attention. This really got her thinking. She replied that she always thought it should be quid pro quo and everyone always expects to receive something if they give something. Lots of Hmmm and interesting comments with thinking emojis. I simply replied that it is interesting, huh?
Also told me that if she had known what “I’m just here to listen” meant that she would have had more to say. She thought of many things that she would like to discuss after our conversation was over. Sounds like I have hours of non-defensive listening to come. That’s ok.
Then she asked me if it was a change in me or if I had always been that way. I haven’t replied. Of course I haven’t always been this way. I had no concept of validation until recently. So it’s a change. I’m hesitant to tell her that because she has to realize it’s a change in me, not me to tell her so. My Actions, not my words will do this. She needs to determine that for herself. This will be a difficult realization for her, as she has stated many times that people cannot change. I am choosing to remain mysterious at this point on the topic of change.
Giving validation without expecting it in return; a big breakthrough for LB. Thanks AS and Steve. This has been what I am struggling with and I feel great knowing that I can do this for myself. If it helps W to come around, then great. If not, I helps me Everyday anyway.
Had a fun day at the demolition derby with S11 yesterday and today mountain biking.
Last edited by LB55; 06/03/1901:24 AM.
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
Alison I popped over to your thread and read the most recent posts. I did not go back and read the whole witch, different task for a different day.
The conversation about lipstick and lamb stood out to me. When he said that, your reply “I know that” in my opinion is invalidating. If I tell you something, and you say “I know that”, well why the F did I bother telling you then? I feel invalidated every time someone says that.
Alternative:
“I understand that it’s going to take more than lamb and lipstick to make this marriage work. What do you need to make progress towards making this work?” You heard what he said, didn’t defend yourself, nor did you agree with him. You also didn’t ask what you can do, instead asking what he does need. He may have told you, he may have exited the conversation. Hard to say. Just my thoughts on it.
Another example
W: You drink a gallon of rum every week!(regardless of whether you do, she FEELS you drink too much) H: No, I only drink half a gallon each week! (This says W, you are wrong and I dismiss your feelings) Alternative: H: I understand that you think I drink too much. Thank you for sharing your feelings with me. ( acknowledges her feelings without agreeing; validation). Perhaps take it a step further with some action...go to an AA meeting, make a promise you can keep. If you won’t stop drinking, don’t promise that.
Hope that makes some sense. I’m still very new to this concept, but I feel like I’ve got the lightbulb going on more frequently.
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
You are spot on that someone has to stop the invalidation cycle. I’ve determined it is going to be me in my situation. I’m the one that is determined to improve myself. W can do what she wants. If I can practice and work on my validation skills with her, it will be simple to use them on more reasonable folks! Folks where one little slip doesn’t send you spiraling backwards into the ice age of your relationship every time.
I disagree that your partner must eventually get on the bandwagon. They might or might not. That’s not up to you. It’s your bandwagon, ride tall! If you choose to stay with them even though they don’t validate your feelings, that’s your choice. Expecting them to eventually get it and return the gift is doomed to failure and will result in more pain and suffering. Give them your validation gift if you choose, just don’t expect one in return. Accept them for who they are or it’s time to move on.
This is a nice discussion we have going on here. Thanks to everyone for chipping in! Wasn’t expecting my thread to take this turn, but it’s a welcome addition. A good topic of discussion for anyone!
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
Hmm, yes I agree they don't have to get on the validation bandwagon, like you said they don't OWE you anything. And having that kind of attitude is destructive to marriages in any case, keeping score is for sports teams, not relationships. I think what I meant is that if you manage to rebuild some sort of R then eventually they are going to want to know what's going on with you, in a more mutual way. Maybe that's what your W meant when she said it was your turn? It seems too early for that right now though. I think the issue will be letting down your defences a bit when the time does come to do that, especially if you've been the distancer in the R?
The concept of inability to change seems a common one, which I suppose makes sense because the reason they DBed us is because they felt hopeless. I like how you're showing not telling, very powerful.
I'm going to work more on validating as much as I can, I can tip over into sympathy sometimes which is a bit mumsy and can come across as patronising. It doesn't help that my H does NOT talk about his feelings very much, you have to dig hard underneath anything he says to find out where the emotions are, and it's hard doing it in a way which doesn't seem too psychologising.
The lipstick and lamb comment was unbelievably hurtful especially in the context of what had just happened, and I think validating in that situation would have been extremely difficult for Alison. You can't validate when you're feeling very emotionally triggered. Well, I can't. Just staying in the same room is hard enough then.
this is super helpful. Thank you for elaborating and thank you for letting me hijack your thread a bit to do it!
I really, really struggle with validating feelings while not enabling his verbal abuse of me - the only feeling I see him demonstrate most of the time is anger, and while he has every right to be angry, and I can validate anger, it is no longer healthy to sit there like a lemon going 'yes, I can see you're really angry' and 'it must be tough to be so angry' when he's throwing emotional hand grenades at me. If he's sharing his inner world, I will validate. If he's lashing out, it's verbal abuse and he can get out of my house.
The lamb and lipstick comment was lashing out. I can't remember his exact phrasing but it involved 'you getting tarted up' and it was designed to humiliate me.
There have been other times I have been able to validate his anger, and I do want to get better at it for my other relationships.
A couple of weeks ago he was talking a lot about the people at his work, who he is having trouble getting on with. He seems to spend most of the time he isn't at work at home in the dark drinking and playing computer games. He's been pulled up at work for his poor attitude and irritability. Privately, I think he doesn't know how to 'give' in relationships, and is probably treating others in a milder version of the way he treats me. What I said was 'it sounds like you just want some low pressure fun and it isn't happening, that must be really hard given how exhausting your work is' which I thought was okay - though there's room to improve.
This conversation has also helped me to think about the ways in which I communicate in ways that seek validation, and stop doing that. I do get a lot of emotional contact and empathy from my friends, and I don't really seek that anymore from H.
Alison: you don't validate anger, because anger is a secondary emotion, they express anger due to some other underlying emotion. Also, you don't validate their criticism of you, you validate the underlying feelings but not their interpretation. Validation is not sitting there taking someone hurling abuse at you, if it gets abusive then you put in a boundary for that behaviour.
So my IC has been helping me to explore my anger when I've expressed it. It's usually because I feel a sense of betrayal or abandonment, either on my behalf or my kids' behalf. Anger usually comes from feeling hurt, or ashamed, or fearful. I feel like I misunderstood my H's anger for a long time, and that helped neither of us, he's actually a very anxious person underneath and that comes out as irritability at best and anger at worst. Funnily enough, he expresses a lot less anger nowadays. I'm still learning how to deal with it when it does happen, that's an ongoing process for me because I grew up in a family which rarely expressed anger and avoided confrontation unless the anger turned explosive. Anger can also be useful, because it drives action, so sometimes anger is something I use in order to try to change things. But wallowing in anger or allowing it to continue for too long without addressing the underlying emotions is unhealthy.
Sorry, I got onto my own anger stuff there, but I think it helps if you can understand your own anger to then translate it into other people's anger, and which bits of it you validate. Being abusive towards someone else is never acceptable but validating the feelings behind anger: that is where true understanding can be made. Very hard, especially if you have a pattern of responses learnt over time!
Pretty much the only emotion I see from H and have done for a long time is anger. He looks depressed sometimes, but very very rarely says he is unhappy. He just seems totally shut down, which is why the validation is so hard.
I am going to practice by first and foremost validating myself!!
