This was a different conversation than in the past for us. This was the first time I didn’t leave upset and angry. It had very little to do with what she said, it had everything to do with how I handled it. Control myself and my reactions. I can end it at anytime if she decides to become vile and spew vitriol at me. So can you.
Awesome, well done LB!
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AS put it well for me a bit earlier. Validation is a one way street. Most people don’t know how to do it. If you only give validation expecting to receive it back I don’t think it will work. My W has no concept of validation. She is the best invalidater I know. Recognizing that behavior from her and not trying to get her to validate my statements is a it step for me. Previously I would have tried to get her to understand by repeating myself, stating in a different manner, using different words; all looking for the validation of my feeling. I’ve stopped looking for validation, instead choosing to validate others as a way to improve myself. It’s only been a few short days since I set my mind to this, there will be setbacks, but I can see progress within myself and in my relationships with others.
Alison: Well I guarantee that your H has a lot more emotions than just anger, it sounds like he's covering up those other emotions with anger. Of course, anger can be appropriate and useful and sometimes healthy, but anger is ABOUT something. Your H does sound very depressed, it often manifests as anger in men. I can see that it must be super hard to validate when he is shut down, I sometimes have that with my H. When I say you shouldn't validate anger, well you shouldn't validate anger expressed with you as the target. That is abuse. Anger itself is a valid emotion and can be validated but it's not ok to dump that anger on someone else. Women are often taught that anger is not allowed, whereas men are often taught that it's the only acceptable emotion allowed, just to complicate matters...
Sorry we keep highjacking your thread LB55, see it as a compliment to your validating expertise!
I have been puzzling over this. I am not sure how it builds a healthy relationship if being a well differentiated adult means learning to validate ourselves. I can try to validate H and I can accept he doesn't have the skills or capacity to validate me, and as an adult I need to be working towards self-validation. But then don't I want to be in a relationship with someone who can self-validate too? Doesn't dishing it out just stop him learning to do it for himself, and isn't withdrawing validation a part of going dark and removing the benefits of being in a marriage from the spouse who has BDd?
Just curious as to what people's thoughts are on this.
Alison you are exactly right, the goal in a healthy relationship is two-way validation. In a DB'ing situation we're obviously not talking about healthy relationships, so validation is very much a one-way street as LB so aptly described a couple pages back. Now in your case and a few others, the situation is even more complicated because you are dealing with a full-blown narcissist and validating a narcissist can backfire because it's basically feeding their narcissism. So you can still validate, but you have to be careful to do it in a way that he can't interpret as you opening the door to more emotional/ verbal abuse from him.
This is very good - thank you. I'm not so interested in validating my H at the moment, I'd prefer not to be around him. But I do wonder if I have been leaning too heavily on my friends during this hard time and practicing some validation with them might be a way of paying some love into the emotional banks of the people who have been caring for me.
Sorry not trying to beat a dead horse here but validation is very important and so often misunderstood. I'm reading a lot of great comments on it here and hope a lot of people pop in and read it all!
Originally Posted by dillydaf
OK, so validating as far as I can see is demonstrating using words that you understand someone else's feelings and accept them. Not that you agree with them, not that you take blame, not that you act defensive or argue with them and not that you tell them they have got the wrong interpretation, not that you push the Fixit button. Because their feelings are their feelings and they are entitled to them just as we are entitled to our own feelings. And having someone else understand your feelings is nice, especially if you feel like you're aggrieved and misunderstood, as our spouses have done for years (and as we probably have done too, let's be honest, but we are being the bigger person here and accepting that their feelings are valid first despite their horrible behaviour).
So an unhealthy relationship is one where both people are blaming each other and not understanding how the other person feels. In order to stop that negative cycle at least one of you has to change that. And if you show someone you understand their feelings then it makes it harder for them to blame you, because part of the reason they're blaming might be that they feel misunderstood.
If you're both busy self-validating then where is the relationship? I agree that you need to understand your own feelings and accept them, and preferably not act on them if they tell you to do stupid and impulsive things! But sharing your internal world to some extent is what builds intimacy isn't it? And at some stage your spouse will have to jump on the validation bandwagon in terms of you being able to share your feelings with them and have them understand them and not be defensive blah blah blah (but you will have done this in a non-blamey healthy way), but for now one person has to get that bandwagon moving.
Well, that is my take, hopefully I'm along the right lines! I need to practice a lot more, I've been in defensive, fixing mode for so long it's difficult to step back and take a different approach.
Yes that is really fantastic Dilly!
Originally Posted by LB55
W: You drink a gallon of rum every week!(regardless of whether you do, she FEELS you drink too much) H: No, I only drink half a gallon each week! (This says W, you are wrong and I dismiss your feelings) Alternative: H: I understand that you think I drink too much. Thank you for sharing your feelings with me. ( acknowledges her feelings without agreeing; validation). Perhaps take it a step further with some action...go to an AA meeting, make a promise you can keep. If you won’t stop drinking, don’t promise that.
Hope that makes some sense. I’m still very new to this concept, but I feel like I’ve got the lightbulb going on more frequently.
The purpose of validation is to seek out feelings, and then validate those feelings. So using the above example:
W: You drink a gallon of rum every week!
That's actually not an expression of feelings. So first you should seek out the feelings- "I hear you saying you think I drink too much, does that make you angry?"
This type of statement invites her to share her feelings, she may be angry or something else, you don't know but you are opening the door for her to describe her feelings.
"I don't know, I guess I'm just frustrated because it seems like you ignore me when you're drinking."
So this is an example of why understanding feelings are important, because she's really frustrated about being -ignored- which she identifies with the drinking. It could be unrelated, like maybe you just like to decompress after work with a drink and zone out for a while. So you could go to AA and quit rum and drink Coke instead, BUT THE PROBLEM WOULD STILL BE THERE! Right? You're still decompressing and ignoring her (even though it's not on purpose) and making her frustrated because the rum wasn't actually the real problem. Does that make sense? So a validating response might be "I am sorry I was making you feel frustrated, that must have been difficult for you. I will work on this." Then you could maybe invite her to decompress with you, or let her know "honey I am going to take a few minutes to decompress in the living room, I'm not ignoring you, just trying to recenter a bit. If you need anything just let me know." If it's a daily routine then now and then you might say "Thank you for giving me some quiet time to decompress, I love that you are so respectful of my needs." This is crossing over into love languages but the point is communication is usually what is lacking in these situations, and better communication is usually the ultimate resolution.
This makes sense to me. Thank you. I remember having a bit of a conversation on my thread a few weeks ago about how to validate anger without sitting there and absorbing verbal abuse. I couldn't really understand but this makes it much clearer.
I’m glad this is happening. It’s good for this group to discuss this at length. It will help us all in the end!
There is no concern about hijacking my thread for it either.
Forgot to mention that W also texted me that “I really liked the listening conversation” and “let’s sit down in chairs next time instead of standing in the driveway”. I agreed with both statements. Progress is nice to see. Small steps.
She asked for a code word that either of us can have to say when we are feeling too emotional to hear each other’s words and end the conversation without reprisal or hard feelings. I think this is acceptable so long as the road goes both ways and the conversation can resume at a later time and date. Thoughts?
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
Forgot to mention that W also texted me that “I really liked the listening conversation” and “let’s sit down in chairs next time instead of standing in the driveway”. I agreed with both statements. Progress is nice to see. Small steps.
Awesome! DB'ing is all about baby steps!
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She asked for a code word that either of us can have to say when we are feeling too emotional to hear each other’s words and end the conversation without reprisal or hard feelings. I think this is acceptable so long as the road goes both ways and the conversation can resume at a later time and date. Thoughts?
That's kind of an odd request. Is she in IC? Maybe it's something her IC suggested. I don't see the harm but if you stick to that quality validating then neither of you should ever need to use it.
Forgot to mention that W also texted me that “I really liked the listening conversation” and “let’s sit down in chairs next time instead of standing in the driveway”. I agreed with both statements. Progress is nice to see. Small steps.
Awesome! DB'ing is all about baby steps!
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She asked for a code word that either of us can have to say when we are feeling too emotional to hear each other’s words and end the conversation without reprisal or hard feelings. I think this is acceptable so long as the road goes both ways and the conversation can resume at a later time and date. Thoughts?
That's kind of an odd request. Is she in IC? Maybe it's something her IC suggested. I don't see the harm but if you stick to that quality validating then neither of you should ever need to use it.
She tells me she is in IC. I have no reason to doubt it. Perhaps her IC suggested it; hard to say.
I’ll keep doing my thing, and like you say, we shouldn’t need to use it.
I see it as a way for her to have her suggestion heard, used, and increase her ownership of the process for something that really doesn’t hurt me in any way or increase my responsibility in the situation. This could increase her trust and that’s a big deal right now.
The cat is paying attention to me, have to build trust without scaring it away.
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
I'm loving all the info on this thread, really helpful about the rum drinking AS!
The code word sounds like a great idea, but I would build in some sort of ground rule about coming back to the conversation later, maybe with a timeline to it. A big problem in my M has been stuff being swept aside and ignored. It's very sensible to say when one of you is triggered, because talking then is fairly pointless, but the issue still needs to be addressed when you're both calm again. I really regret some of our conversations where I just kept pushing stuff in hope of some sort of resolution and my H just shut down. In return, I tend to run away when I get triggered and that's also not very helpful particularly when my H is sensitive to abandonment. I would like to institute some sort of idea like this with my H when we get on firmer ground.
